BR clutchless 4 speed project.
Jun 11, 2012, 12:55 PM
#1
BR clutchless 4 speed project.
I wanted to post up some updates as to what is going on and thought a new thread would be best. It gets hard to sort through a few hundred posts.
So I left off last with the first trans we built for my car lasting about 4 hours and then breaking the output shaft and a planetary. I found another trans, by luck, that is MUCH heavier duty than the first we had tried. Getting it to fit, work and parts cast so we can use it is proving to be a big investment and challenging.
My good friend Matt Smith wanted a trans for his car. I told him I had nothing ready yet, still developing the heavy duty trans that is going in my own car. We talked and decided that we'd fix the first trans I broke, ship it to him in North Carolina and he'd try to run it for our Sport Compact Race we had about 2 weeks ago.
We got everything done in time and shipped it down to him, he got it installed and came up for the dyno day on Friday.
Most of you know our dyno reads about 13% lower than a Dynojet. The torque converter in this trans is as loose as we can build it, so it's pretty darn loose. We got the car loaded on the dyno and I started dialing in the new combo. Matt ran one of our 2 liters for years on VP Import. He is now running one of our 2.1's on E85 and an HTA86, twin scroll T4 header we did for his old GT42 set up, so it took just a few minutes to get dialed in on the new fuel/engine.
I knew going into this the time was limited for this trans and it probably would break again. Matt was also aware of this. The hopes were to run Max Effort, which required autocrossing on Saturday and then drags on Sunday. I told Matt I wanted to tune it real soft and then sneak up on it if it held up, the hopes were to click of some 9.90's with the car.
I started off pulling 12 degrees of timing out of the top end of the map, I wanted it soft, like I said! haha Then backed the boost all the way down to 15 psi. AFR's were set in the 11.4:1 range. When we were done I was happy with the results and settled for a low 27 psi of boost. The car made 481 whp/396 ft lbs like that in 3rd gear. This is about 543 whp on a Dynojet then you have to figure in the losses from the converter.......it's pretty substantial.
Here's the dyno sheet:
The next day was the autocross and all I can say is the car was OUT OF CONTROL the first run. Boost was in instantly from the looks of the oversteer and tire smoke! Matt was so happy when he came back from his first run. All he could talk about was how much fun it was and how well the trans worked. We probably got a little cocky with the trans as he made probably close to 15 runs. The very last run he made he said he was going to try a downshift to 1st and see if he couldn't improve his times. Well the trans broke. Something completely new this time, blew gears out of the top of the case............it was a very sad moment as I'd hoped to see it drag race the next day.
Matt had a great time and wants to fix that trans and put it back in just so he can drive the car, he says he absolutely LOVES the trans.
Bottom line for me is the trans just isn't going to work out for us. We are hot and heavy on this new unit that is much heavier duty and hoping to get it completely figured out very soon.
So I left off last with the first trans we built for my car lasting about 4 hours and then breaking the output shaft and a planetary. I found another trans, by luck, that is MUCH heavier duty than the first we had tried. Getting it to fit, work and parts cast so we can use it is proving to be a big investment and challenging.
My good friend Matt Smith wanted a trans for his car. I told him I had nothing ready yet, still developing the heavy duty trans that is going in my own car. We talked and decided that we'd fix the first trans I broke, ship it to him in North Carolina and he'd try to run it for our Sport Compact Race we had about 2 weeks ago.
We got everything done in time and shipped it down to him, he got it installed and came up for the dyno day on Friday.
Most of you know our dyno reads about 13% lower than a Dynojet. The torque converter in this trans is as loose as we can build it, so it's pretty darn loose. We got the car loaded on the dyno and I started dialing in the new combo. Matt ran one of our 2 liters for years on VP Import. He is now running one of our 2.1's on E85 and an HTA86, twin scroll T4 header we did for his old GT42 set up, so it took just a few minutes to get dialed in on the new fuel/engine.
I knew going into this the time was limited for this trans and it probably would break again. Matt was also aware of this. The hopes were to run Max Effort, which required autocrossing on Saturday and then drags on Sunday. I told Matt I wanted to tune it real soft and then sneak up on it if it held up, the hopes were to click of some 9.90's with the car.
I started off pulling 12 degrees of timing out of the top end of the map, I wanted it soft, like I said! haha Then backed the boost all the way down to 15 psi. AFR's were set in the 11.4:1 range. When we were done I was happy with the results and settled for a low 27 psi of boost. The car made 481 whp/396 ft lbs like that in 3rd gear. This is about 543 whp on a Dynojet then you have to figure in the losses from the converter.......it's pretty substantial.
Here's the dyno sheet:
The next day was the autocross and all I can say is the car was OUT OF CONTROL the first run. Boost was in instantly from the looks of the oversteer and tire smoke! Matt was so happy when he came back from his first run. All he could talk about was how much fun it was and how well the trans worked. We probably got a little cocky with the trans as he made probably close to 15 runs. The very last run he made he said he was going to try a downshift to 1st and see if he couldn't improve his times. Well the trans broke. Something completely new this time, blew gears out of the top of the case............it was a very sad moment as I'd hoped to see it drag race the next day.
Matt had a great time and wants to fix that trans and put it back in just so he can drive the car, he says he absolutely LOVES the trans.
Bottom line for me is the trans just isn't going to work out for us. We are hot and heavy on this new unit that is much heavier duty and hoping to get it completely figured out very soon.
Jun 11, 2012, 05:10 PM
#2
I can only imagine the time and money invested in this trans. I hope that you figure it out soon so we can see that bad bish with the clutchless 4 speed.
I thought I read somewhere that we were thinking about ditching this all together because of costs. Does Matt's fun outweigh your thoughts and concerns about the fact that the trans may not work ever? I really hope you figure this all out. If you do, I am sure you guys will be flooded with work for autos.
I thought I read somewhere that we were thinking about ditching this all together because of costs. Does Matt's fun outweigh your thoughts and concerns about the fact that the trans may not work ever? I really hope you figure this all out. If you do, I am sure you guys will be flooded with work for autos.
Jun 12, 2012, 06:32 AM
#3
I can only imagine the time and money invested in this trans. I hope that you figure it out soon so we can see that bad bish with the clutchless 4 speed.
I thought I read somewhere that we were thinking about ditching this all together because of costs. Does Matt's fun outweigh your thoughts and concerns about the fact that the trans may not work ever? I really hope you figure this all out. If you do, I am sure you guys will be flooded with work for autos.
I thought I read somewhere that we were thinking about ditching this all together because of costs. Does Matt's fun outweigh your thoughts and concerns about the fact that the trans may not work ever? I really hope you figure this all out. If you do, I am sure you guys will be flooded with work for autos.
To give you an idea how much fun Matt had and how much he liked it, he has just pulled the broken trans out and is sending it back up here. He wants to just drop a STOCK trans back in so he can just drive it around and enjoy it! We are going to take all the good parts we built out of this trans (which are stronger than the rest of the box apparently) and put them into a new case and replace whatever broke. Then ship it back to him to run again.
I have no fear that this new trans I have in my possession will not work, I am very confident it's strong enough to hold up. It's the electronic/control part of it that is simply kicking our asses.
Jun 12, 2012, 06:44 AM
#4
I am not ditching the project, I refuse to ever install a manual 5 speed trans back in my car, it won't happen. I am so set on making something work I'd sell the car before I went back to a manual trans.
To give you an idea how much fun Matt had and how much he liked it, he has just pulled the broken trans out and is sending it back up here. He wants to just drop a STOCK trans back in so he can just drive it around and enjoy it! We are going to take all the good parts we built out of this trans (which are stronger than the rest of the box apparently) and put them into a new case and replace whatever broke. Then ship it back to him to run again.
I have no fear that this new trans I have in my possession will not work, I am very confident it's strong enough to hold up. It's the electronic/control part of it that is simply kicking our asses.
To give you an idea how much fun Matt had and how much he liked it, he has just pulled the broken trans out and is sending it back up here. He wants to just drop a STOCK trans back in so he can just drive it around and enjoy it! We are going to take all the good parts we built out of this trans (which are stronger than the rest of the box apparently) and put them into a new case and replace whatever broke. Then ship it back to him to run again.
I have no fear that this new trans I have in my possession will not work, I am very confident it's strong enough to hold up. It's the electronic/control part of it that is simply kicking our asses.
Are you guys having a issue with coding or figuring out with electronic impulse to control the selenoids?
I am sure that we would all be glad to help.
It is good to see you are still in the fight for this. Thank you for going through the paces and making this happen.
Jun 12, 2012, 10:52 AM
#6
The problem is controlling the shifts, we are shifting the car manually only. I'm sure there are people who would be glad to help, but keeping this project quiet until it's done is tough to do. I already have guys snooping around with friends of mine asking questions and trying to go around me. I have to keep this in a small circle of people. I think the new trans I bought yesterday is in the right hands now and should get sorted out. Once the electronics/shifting is sorted I have very-very high hopes of being able to put some serious power to the trans and it working out very good. With the DSM/EVO Shootout coming up very quickly it's important we get this done and sorted soon. I'd like multiple cars running the trans at that race.
There is video posted of Matt's car on the BR Facebook page. Stop over and sign up he put up a couple of videos there. Link is in my signature.
There is video posted of Matt's car on the BR Facebook page. Stop over and sign up he put up a couple of videos there. Link is in my signature.
Jun 12, 2012, 03:03 PM
#7
The problem is controlling the shifts, we are shifting the car manually only. I'm sure there are people who would be glad to help, but keeping this project quiet until it's done is tough to do. I already have guys snooping around with friends of mine asking questions and trying to go around me. I have to keep this in a small circle of people. I think the new trans I bought yesterday is in the right hands now and should get sorted out. Once the electronics/shifting is sorted I have very-very high hopes of being able to put some serious power to the trans and it working out very good. With the DSM/EVO Shootout coming up very quickly it's important we get this done and sorted soon. I'd like multiple cars running the trans at that race.
There is video posted of Matt's car on the BR Facebook page. Stop over and sign up he put up a couple of videos there. Link is in my signature.
There is video posted of Matt's car on the BR Facebook page. Stop over and sign up he put up a couple of videos there. Link is in my signature.
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Jun 12, 2012, 06:47 PM
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The problem is controlling the shifts, we are shifting the car manually only. I'm sure there are people who would be glad to help, but keeping this project quiet until it's done is tough to do. I already have guys snooping around with friends of mine asking questions and trying to go around me. I have to keep this in a small circle of people. I think the new trans I bought yesterday is in the right hands now and should get sorted out. Once the electronics/shifting is sorted I have very-very high hopes of being able to put some serious power to the trans and it working out very good. With the DSM/EVO Shootout coming up very quickly it's important we get this done and sorted soon. I'd like multiple cars running the trans at that race.
There is video posted of Matt's car on the BR Facebook page. Stop over and sign up he put up a couple of videos there. Link is in my signature.
There is video posted of Matt's car on the BR Facebook page. Stop over and sign up he put up a couple of videos there. Link is in my signature.
