Buschur Racing turbo kits & dyno numbers
Mar 19, 2004, 06:42 PM
#256
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Sorry if you feel the answer is stupid. There is too much good info in this thread for it to turn into a flame war. I'll let Dave answer your question directly so you can hear it from his mouth. My point is that Buschur has been dealing with this for years in the DSM community. The way you know you are getting the best turbo for your application is because it is evident in Buschur's dyno testing and drag strip results that they are producing quality parts that work.
Mar 19, 2004, 09:10 PM
#257
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Turbo Info
If you don't feel good about not knowing the specs, don't buy it. Why be so negative over such a non-issue. As you say, if you REALLY have to know, you can always disassemble it and find out for yourself. David is a no nonsense guy, who supplies the best cost efficient mods for the EVO. His reputation is beyond reproach. Do you think he should just reveal R&D secrets to anyone just because they say " I won't do anything with it" when he has many instances of just the opposite happening??
Mar 20, 2004, 10:07 AM
#258
Ive owned six turbocharged cars. I dont know how you can compare alternative options with out knowing what your buying! Buschur racing can pratice business however they wish (give the customer the specs or not give the customer the specs). I could easily buy the product and find out what it is. All im saying is that your buying a product blind, without the ability to compare options, look for better alternate solutions, in the end...make more power. How can a customer who is looking to upgrade a buschur turbo even look to the vast turbocharger market? "What type of turbo did you have before?" A vendor asks. Customer replies "Uhh... I had a buschur racing 475 capable of 475 whp....." Without specs how do you even know your baseline or upgrade path?
Mar 20, 2004, 10:43 AM
#259
All you need to know are the boost curve all the way from boost threshold up to the max boost pressure you want to run. This is done by measuring boost in a 4th gear WOT pull from 2000 RPM up to redline while plotting boost VS RPM.
Boost response. This is measured by taking the car up to 1000 RPM above where max boost is achivable let off the throttle for a second or two... then go WOT and measure how long it takes the turbo to re-spool to max boost. Acutally MEASUREING boost response is much better than basing your choice on what type of center section (non-BB, single BB, or dual BB) the turbo has.
And last but not least a dyno sheet on a specific fuel at a specific boost pressure to know weather or not you want a particular turbo.
Every one of these measurements can be done with the data logger in the AEM EMS and the Buschur Racing dynojet. I hope that they actually publish this boost curve and boost response data for the different turbo's they sell after they try them out on the shop car.
Dave, I am sure you did data logs on the BR 475 when you dynoed the car with it, if you don't want to bother with it send me the data logs and I can print out the graphs, and then scane them so that people without the EMS software can look at the boost curve at least. You probably didn't try to get a boost response though did you?
Let me know if you want my help
Keith
Boost response. This is measured by taking the car up to 1000 RPM above where max boost is achivable let off the throttle for a second or two... then go WOT and measure how long it takes the turbo to re-spool to max boost. Acutally MEASUREING boost response is much better than basing your choice on what type of center section (non-BB, single BB, or dual BB) the turbo has.
And last but not least a dyno sheet on a specific fuel at a specific boost pressure to know weather or not you want a particular turbo.
Every one of these measurements can be done with the data logger in the AEM EMS and the Buschur Racing dynojet. I hope that they actually publish this boost curve and boost response data for the different turbo's they sell after they try them out on the shop car.
Dave, I am sure you did data logs on the BR 475 when you dynoed the car with it, if you don't want to bother with it send me the data logs and I can print out the graphs, and then scane them so that people without the EMS software can look at the boost curve at least. You probably didn't try to get a boost response though did you?
Let me know if you want my help
Keith
Last edited by Fourdoor; Mar 20, 2004 at 11:00 AM.
Mar 20, 2004, 12:17 PM
#260
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Originally posted by evolution9
Ive owned six turbocharged cars. I dont know how you can compare alternative options with out knowing what your buying! Buschur racing can pratice business however they wish (give the customer the specs or not give the customer the specs). I could easily buy the product and find out what it is. All im saying is that your buying a product blind, without the ability to compare options, look for better alternate solutions, in the end...make more power. How can a customer who is looking to upgrade a buschur turbo even look to the vast turbocharger market? "What type of turbo did you have before?" A vendor asks. Customer replies "Uhh... I had a buschur racing 475 capable of 475 whp....." Without specs how do you even know your baseline or upgrade path?
Ive owned six turbocharged cars. I dont know how you can compare alternative options with out knowing what your buying! Buschur racing can pratice business however they wish (give the customer the specs or not give the customer the specs). I could easily buy the product and find out what it is. All im saying is that your buying a product blind, without the ability to compare options, look for better alternate solutions, in the end...make more power. How can a customer who is looking to upgrade a buschur turbo even look to the vast turbocharger market? "What type of turbo did you have before?" A vendor asks. Customer replies "Uhh... I had a buschur racing 475 capable of 475 whp....." Without specs how do you even know your baseline or upgrade path?
Mar 20, 2004, 02:34 PM
#261
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If David Says it will produce 475 Hp it will..(and prob more) Want more go bigger. What's so fun is having a stock turbo car and putting down better Road Racing times than a big turbo car. (see sig.). Buschur Racing, real people, real self developed parts (the best for your evo) and REAL Horsepower...not your usual dyno dolly tuning shop. (and man am I grateful I found them when I did)
Mar 20, 2004, 06:37 PM
#262
Over the years I have bought many parts from the team at burshur. They have always provided great service and I appreciate them for their hard work and dedication. But as far as turbos go, I will never buy a turbo from a vender that wants to keep the wheel trims a secret. Thats not good business sense. People definately want to know what their buying. How many cams do you think people would buy from a vender if they wanted to sell you "BR spec HKS cams" 
Mar 20, 2004, 06:57 PM
#263
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evolution 9 do you even have an Evo buy your sig I am guessing you are waiting on getting the next generation of Evo's . So why wast Dave's time with these posts. I am sure if you where to buy on of his turbo kits then he would tell you exactly which spec's where available. Dave has said when they come available he will have differnt sizes for each turbo.
Mar 24, 2004, 09:00 AM
#264
Steve,
The injectors and downpipe do not come with the kits. The programming, depending on what you are running we will provide to you as long as you got it from us. AFC, EMS etc.
evolution9,
You think it is rediculous that we don't give the specs out on the turbos. Bottom line is there is NO reason for us to do this. By me telling everyone what the turbo is all they have to do is source it themself and put a kit together. So far we have tested well over a dozen different turbo's for this combination. Do you think I can't look at the book and pick out what I think works too? I would say that if all you need is the information that is printed from PT&E to make a choice on which turbo is best then I need to hire you and have you do that. What is on paper means very very little as to what is actually going to perform on a particular engine. My telling "you" what we use so you can make a "better" choice is retarded.
We advertise the actual HP that WE see on the turbos. We have been testing our BR475 turbo. You will notice in another post I made today and a change a in our website that we have now renamed that turbo the BR440. What we used to build it will remain a mystery until someone buys it and wants to spread the word. Luckily nobody wants to do that after they spend their hard earned money on our parts. This keeps us in business.
I have quite a few cars, I have yet to call and ask "what do you use to build that ...... with?" for any of them. I need a part for any of my cars I find the guy I want to buy from and call and get it. I could care less what the internal components are, all I care is that when I get it I get what they advertise out of it. With us that is exactly what you will get.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
The injectors and downpipe do not come with the kits. The programming, depending on what you are running we will provide to you as long as you got it from us. AFC, EMS etc.
evolution9,
You think it is rediculous that we don't give the specs out on the turbos. Bottom line is there is NO reason for us to do this. By me telling everyone what the turbo is all they have to do is source it themself and put a kit together. So far we have tested well over a dozen different turbo's for this combination. Do you think I can't look at the book and pick out what I think works too? I would say that if all you need is the information that is printed from PT&E to make a choice on which turbo is best then I need to hire you and have you do that. What is on paper means very very little as to what is actually going to perform on a particular engine. My telling "you" what we use so you can make a "better" choice is retarded.
We advertise the actual HP that WE see on the turbos. We have been testing our BR475 turbo. You will notice in another post I made today and a change a in our website that we have now renamed that turbo the BR440. What we used to build it will remain a mystery until someone buys it and wants to spread the word. Luckily nobody wants to do that after they spend their hard earned money on our parts. This keeps us in business.
I have quite a few cars, I have yet to call and ask "what do you use to build that ...... with?" for any of them. I need a part for any of my cars I find the guy I want to buy from and call and get it. I could care less what the internal components are, all I care is that when I get it I get what they advertise out of it. With us that is exactly what you will get.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Mar 24, 2004, 09:10 AM
#265
This is in more detail in the latest new topic I put up. Real quick though.
On the dyno yesterday with the BR440 (was BR475) on the car here is some spool up information.
At 3430 rpm we went to 100% WOT at 4059 rpm we had 20 psi. This took us from 23.08 to 24.56 in time. What I am saying is in 4th gear we went from 0 to 20 psi in 629 rpm and 1.48 seconds.
This is some very quick spool up. The car made 443/405 hp/tq.
As far as buying our BR440/475/500 etc. and then calling somewhere else to upgrade I can say that it probably won't happen. If and when you choose to deal with us more than likely you will stay with us. Guys that buy a certain turbo from us meet their goals that they are looking for. This keeps them very happy and makes them come back. When they want to upgrade they call us and we tell them not only what turbo they will need but what fuel, fuel management, ignition and other upgrades they will need to support the new turbo. You won't get all that information by calling up 1-800-turbowhore, you will only get a turbo that MAY OR MAY NOT work on your 4g63 in the first place. With us you are getting a turbo that we went through a great deal of work FIRST to get to work properly on the ONLY engines we have done for the last 15 years and the engine you are running in your car.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
On the dyno yesterday with the BR440 (was BR475) on the car here is some spool up information.
At 3430 rpm we went to 100% WOT at 4059 rpm we had 20 psi. This took us from 23.08 to 24.56 in time. What I am saying is in 4th gear we went from 0 to 20 psi in 629 rpm and 1.48 seconds.
This is some very quick spool up. The car made 443/405 hp/tq.
As far as buying our BR440/475/500 etc. and then calling somewhere else to upgrade I can say that it probably won't happen. If and when you choose to deal with us more than likely you will stay with us. Guys that buy a certain turbo from us meet their goals that they are looking for. This keeps them very happy and makes them come back. When they want to upgrade they call us and we tell them not only what turbo they will need but what fuel, fuel management, ignition and other upgrades they will need to support the new turbo. You won't get all that information by calling up 1-800-turbowhore, you will only get a turbo that MAY OR MAY NOT work on your 4g63 in the first place. With us you are getting a turbo that we went through a great deal of work FIRST to get to work properly on the ONLY engines we have done for the last 15 years and the engine you are running in your car.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Mar 24, 2004, 10:16 AM
#267
I just called to check on the turbo upgrades, I am waiting on a call back, when I get some more information I will post it. I was told 4 weeks originally. Then again I was told 3 months on our turbo kit and the casting and such has now taken us to about 6 months. The best stuff is always worth the wait.
Mar 24, 2004, 10:25 AM
#268
Complete lack of comments being made on this under its own topic on this board so I am putting it here too. Seems as though this is where I should have stuck it in the first place.
As you guys have been reading we have been working on porting the EVO head. We put the head on last week and just got around to putting the car back on the dyno yesterday.
The car has our BR440 (previously called our BR475) on it. This is the same turbo that was on the car for the last dyno sessions we did. Other notable parts on the car that haven't changed. The shortblock is still bone stock and the same fuel is still in the tank from before (race gas).
The turbo is just maxed out at this point. As I have pointed out in previous posts this turbo was built to replace the overpriced Mitsubishi TDO5H 20G turbos we have run and had such great luck with over the last 15 years. The most HP I have ever seen from a 20G is 446 whp. This car (446 whp) had NO accessory belts other than an alternator and waterpump. Fully built shortblock, ported head, cams etc. In comparison the EVO still has all the accessory belts (A/C, power steering, waterpump, alternator) all intact and a stock shortblock.
The EVO with the stock head and the same turbo/fuel in it made 423 whp and 384 ft lbs of torque. We have since changed to our ported cylinder head and yesterday the car made 443.2 whp and 405.2 ft lbs. The car just won't maintain high boost to redline with this relatively small turbo. The boost at 7800 rpm when we stopped the run dropped to 21 psi. This is the same boost levels at the top of the pull we were seeing before the head.
Looks as though we gained a solid 20 hp and 21 ft lbs of torque.
Here are some interesting specs on this turbo. First, it is not ball bearing and is not water cooled. This is going to be the basic kit we offer for the EVO as it offer great spool up and a good power increase over the stock unit.
Looking at the datalog from the run the throttle was put to 100% at 3430 rpm, at 4059 rpm the car had 20 psi of boost. So in 629 rpm it went from 0 psi to 20 psi. In time the car went from 23.08 to 24.56, that is 1.48 seconds from 0 boost to 20 psi.
Something else that I personally found absolutely amazing was the intake temperatures. The runs we were doing we started at 77 degrees intake tempuratures. The runs at the end of the pulls varied from an increase of 3 to 9 degrees.
77 F to 80 F
77 F to 86 F
71 F to 77 F
That is some impressive stuff.
Next on our list is to start testing some more serious turbos. I have a couple being built right now. We should be back on the dyno next week with some new numbers.
I can't wait until the track opens!
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
As you guys have been reading we have been working on porting the EVO head. We put the head on last week and just got around to putting the car back on the dyno yesterday.
The car has our BR440 (previously called our BR475) on it. This is the same turbo that was on the car for the last dyno sessions we did. Other notable parts on the car that haven't changed. The shortblock is still bone stock and the same fuel is still in the tank from before (race gas).
The turbo is just maxed out at this point. As I have pointed out in previous posts this turbo was built to replace the overpriced Mitsubishi TDO5H 20G turbos we have run and had such great luck with over the last 15 years. The most HP I have ever seen from a 20G is 446 whp. This car (446 whp) had NO accessory belts other than an alternator and waterpump. Fully built shortblock, ported head, cams etc. In comparison the EVO still has all the accessory belts (A/C, power steering, waterpump, alternator) all intact and a stock shortblock.
The EVO with the stock head and the same turbo/fuel in it made 423 whp and 384 ft lbs of torque. We have since changed to our ported cylinder head and yesterday the car made 443.2 whp and 405.2 ft lbs. The car just won't maintain high boost to redline with this relatively small turbo. The boost at 7800 rpm when we stopped the run dropped to 21 psi. This is the same boost levels at the top of the pull we were seeing before the head.
Looks as though we gained a solid 20 hp and 21 ft lbs of torque.
Here are some interesting specs on this turbo. First, it is not ball bearing and is not water cooled. This is going to be the basic kit we offer for the EVO as it offer great spool up and a good power increase over the stock unit.
Looking at the datalog from the run the throttle was put to 100% at 3430 rpm, at 4059 rpm the car had 20 psi of boost. So in 629 rpm it went from 0 psi to 20 psi. In time the car went from 23.08 to 24.56, that is 1.48 seconds from 0 boost to 20 psi.
Something else that I personally found absolutely amazing was the intake temperatures. The runs we were doing we started at 77 degrees intake tempuratures. The runs at the end of the pulls varied from an increase of 3 to 9 degrees.
77 F to 80 F
77 F to 86 F
71 F to 77 F
That is some impressive stuff.
Next on our list is to start testing some more serious turbos. I have a couple being built right now. We should be back on the dyno next week with some new numbers.
I can't wait until the track opens!
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Mar 24, 2004, 11:58 AM
#269
Originally posted by davidbuschur
Looking at the datalog from the run the throttle was put to 100% at 3430 rpm, at 4059 rpm the car had 20 psi of boost. So in 629 rpm it went from 0 psi to 20 psi. In time the car went from 23.08 to 24.56, that is 1.48 seconds from 0 boost to 20 psi.
Looking at the datalog from the run the throttle was put to 100% at 3430 rpm, at 4059 rpm the car had 20 psi of boost. So in 629 rpm it went from 0 psi to 20 psi. In time the car went from 23.08 to 24.56, that is 1.48 seconds from 0 boost to 20 psi.
Keith
