Buschur Racing turbo kits & dyno numbers
Jan 29, 2004, 05:34 PM
#61
Evolved Member
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Agrestic
Posts: 1,394
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tym,
You didn't answer the most important question!
What are the major components of this kit besides the turbo, manifold, O2 housing & related plumbing?
We're all taking guesses here.
You didn't answer the most important question!
What are the major components of this kit besides the turbo, manifold, O2 housing & related plumbing?
We're all taking guesses here.
Jan 29, 2004, 05:39 PM
#63
Newbie
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Assuming the Stock MAF is still used with the Dyno Flash run, then its probably not a fair comparison with the stock turbo regarding the spoolup. the stock turbo will spool and pull earlier using the AEM and a MAP sensor, wouldnt it?
Jan 29, 2004, 05:46 PM
#64
Evolved Member
iTrader: (21)
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: MI
Posts: 1,090
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Torque is good...on the street, track, (should I downshift or can I just brake and gas it out of a corner) or strip. Look what the BR car did with a stage 3 vs 4, you don't pick up .45 tenths with 20 hp. Look at what the tq did on the stg 4 pull. Pull out a book and look where HP comes from.
Jan 29, 2004, 05:51 PM
#66
Evolved Member
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Scottsdale AZ
Posts: 574
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
David and Tymm,
I wish you can have dyno sheets (or 1320 times) for your BR475 for the EVO with the stock ECU (can be reflashed or dynoflashed). I know Id save the $1500 for the AEM and just add $1000 more for your turbo kit upgrade.
I wish you can have dyno sheets (or 1320 times) for your BR475 for the EVO with the stock ECU (can be reflashed or dynoflashed). I know Id save the $1500 for the AEM and just add $1000 more for your turbo kit upgrade.
Jan 29, 2004, 06:22 PM
#68
Not to be a hater, but why does HP fall off at higher rpms? You've blasted other tuners out there for having graphs similar to yours, claiming that there should be no reason for HP to fall off.
Now, looking at your upgraded turbo, we see that HP levels off, and falls. And you have cams on top of it.
Yes, the drop-off isn't anywhere close to being obscene, but, the graph of the stock 16G doesn't show any drop-off. What's going on?
Now, looking at your upgraded turbo, we see that HP levels off, and falls. And you have cams on top of it.
Yes, the drop-off isn't anywhere close to being obscene, but, the graph of the stock 16G doesn't show any drop-off. What's going on?
Jan 29, 2004, 06:22 PM
#69
Evolving Member
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: NC
Posts: 148
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
tym... what does a stock evo put down on your dyno.
i have not seen those numbers, so the numbers posted in this thread mean nuthing except the difference between the 2 setups you have on the dyno chart.
i have not seen those numbers, so the numbers posted in this thread mean nuthing except the difference between the 2 setups you have on the dyno chart.
Jan 29, 2004, 06:40 PM
#71
Alright. Great responses so far, thanks all. I am at the end of page three and I am going to answer everyone up to this point.
Ronin,
The kit will include the manifold, turbo, custom stainless steel 02 housing, braided stainless steel oil feed line, oil return line, water bypass hose, high flow engine cooling fan and a hard lower i/c pipe.
Wadzi,
Yes, we dyno on a 2wd dyno, always have and always will. I have made this clear to everyone. The car dyno'd 390 whp before on race gas and the stock turbo on our 2wd dyno. The car ran an 11.65 at 117.88. Many shops have claimed more HP on AWD dyno's and basically only matched our times. Enough on the dyno never ending dyno debate.
Steve,
No specs on the turbo available. I have grown tired of people gaining information from us to just go and source the parts themselves. I am not saying you will do this. Thousands have done it in the past. We started naming our turbos after the WHP they have put down in the 4g63's. We have been doing this for 3-4 years now. i.e. the BR 475 made 475 whp, the BR500 made 500 whp and the BR580 made 580 hp. The old BR57 was named after the first 1/4 mile pass it made, a 10.57 ET. Sorry, no specs.
rebelzx,
The turbo is built on the new Garret technologies. We have been running them for about 2 years now and have had GREAT success. The same design on a standard 2g manifold has gone 8.7 at 151 mph on our 4g63 powered street legal Conquest. It is NOT a modified 20g by any means. You can take a look at the dyno charts and see the spool up is just about identical to the stock turbo and it just surpasses it everywhere after the stock turbo has hit its peak.
4bangr,
The flash will be done for the turbo in the future. We have to get Al to bring the equipment down again. I don't see any reason why the flash and the AFC won't control the fuel and timing for the turbo upgrade. They will not make the power the standalone does. One of the main limiting parts is sucking through the MAS.
Adrey,
If you already have our Stage 4 and flash you can drop the turbo kit right in. The car will probably need the AFC piggy backed in though.
Metaphysical,
We had the car at a peak boost of 21 psi on the 401 pass. This was done on 94 octane.
Before the question even comes up I have NO idea what it will make on California 91 octane
! haha
EZ76,
We will be putting in the 272 cams as soon as we take the car apart for any reason. For now we want to test on what we have sold most of our customers and what we are suggesting at this time. We still aren't trying to set the world on fire. We are just developing stages so we can sell a great product at a good price.
By the time the shootout rolls around the car will be done being used to get stages developed and we will have it built to make atleast 200 more hp than it is now.
chuntington,
The turbo is NOT ball bearing. I had **** for luck with ballbearing turbos in the past and have little or no desire to ever run one again. The added cost in my opinion is not worth what you get.
The turbo is warrantied for 6 months against defects.
Hooptie,
The flange we used on the bottom of our 02 housing is the same flange we use on OUR 3" downpipe. It would bolt to any other 3" downpipe if we made a small receiving lip for the factory donut gasket. The problem is the fitment of the downpipe are very tight. Depending on how the company designed your particular downpipe it may or may not clear (your downpipe) after installing this.
rraulston,
Making more power at the same boost with a different turbo only makes sense. The larger turbo is not only more efficient (doesn't heat up the air as much) it also flows more CFM. The entire idea is to stuff more air into the engine and then add more fuel, therefore you make more HP. You don't have to run huge boost to make HP, it helps though....haha
Thanks guys,
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Ronin,
The kit will include the manifold, turbo, custom stainless steel 02 housing, braided stainless steel oil feed line, oil return line, water bypass hose, high flow engine cooling fan and a hard lower i/c pipe.
Wadzi,
Yes, we dyno on a 2wd dyno, always have and always will. I have made this clear to everyone. The car dyno'd 390 whp before on race gas and the stock turbo on our 2wd dyno. The car ran an 11.65 at 117.88. Many shops have claimed more HP on AWD dyno's and basically only matched our times. Enough on the dyno never ending dyno debate.
Steve,
No specs on the turbo available. I have grown tired of people gaining information from us to just go and source the parts themselves. I am not saying you will do this. Thousands have done it in the past. We started naming our turbos after the WHP they have put down in the 4g63's. We have been doing this for 3-4 years now. i.e. the BR 475 made 475 whp, the BR500 made 500 whp and the BR580 made 580 hp. The old BR57 was named after the first 1/4 mile pass it made, a 10.57 ET. Sorry, no specs.
rebelzx,
The turbo is built on the new Garret technologies. We have been running them for about 2 years now and have had GREAT success. The same design on a standard 2g manifold has gone 8.7 at 151 mph on our 4g63 powered street legal Conquest. It is NOT a modified 20g by any means. You can take a look at the dyno charts and see the spool up is just about identical to the stock turbo and it just surpasses it everywhere after the stock turbo has hit its peak.
4bangr,
The flash will be done for the turbo in the future. We have to get Al to bring the equipment down again. I don't see any reason why the flash and the AFC won't control the fuel and timing for the turbo upgrade. They will not make the power the standalone does. One of the main limiting parts is sucking through the MAS.
Adrey,
If you already have our Stage 4 and flash you can drop the turbo kit right in. The car will probably need the AFC piggy backed in though.
Metaphysical,
We had the car at a peak boost of 21 psi on the 401 pass. This was done on 94 octane.
Before the question even comes up I have NO idea what it will make on California 91 octane
! hahaEZ76,
We will be putting in the 272 cams as soon as we take the car apart for any reason. For now we want to test on what we have sold most of our customers and what we are suggesting at this time. We still aren't trying to set the world on fire. We are just developing stages so we can sell a great product at a good price.
By the time the shootout rolls around the car will be done being used to get stages developed and we will have it built to make atleast 200 more hp than it is now.
chuntington,
The turbo is NOT ball bearing. I had **** for luck with ballbearing turbos in the past and have little or no desire to ever run one again. The added cost in my opinion is not worth what you get.
The turbo is warrantied for 6 months against defects.
Hooptie,
The flange we used on the bottom of our 02 housing is the same flange we use on OUR 3" downpipe. It would bolt to any other 3" downpipe if we made a small receiving lip for the factory donut gasket. The problem is the fitment of the downpipe are very tight. Depending on how the company designed your particular downpipe it may or may not clear (your downpipe) after installing this.
rraulston,
Making more power at the same boost with a different turbo only makes sense. The larger turbo is not only more efficient (doesn't heat up the air as much) it also flows more CFM. The entire idea is to stuff more air into the engine and then add more fuel, therefore you make more HP. You don't have to run huge boost to make HP, it helps though....haha
Thanks guys,
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Jan 29, 2004, 06:46 PM
#73
Newbie
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Ohio
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Okay... couple of quick answers for you guys... I'm sure David will be on here sometime soon with more specific answers.
The turbo kit will consist of manifold, turbo, stainless o2 housing, lower intercooler pipe for use with our front mount, gaskets and lines. Everything needed to put this turbo on the car is included and bolts right up to our downpipe. We haven't looked into setting up the kit for the stock intercooler or other downpipes out there. I am sure that we will look into it for those that request it, but our combinations are complete and the intercooler upgrade we offer was specifically configured for our upgraded turbos in mind.
For those that want to see our stock hp/tq curves vs our stage 1 mods, you can find that chart here:
http://www.buschurracing.com/EVO8_STG1_VS_STK_LG.jpg
As far as the curve dropping off...
This car only has 264 intake and exhaust cams. The curve would definately stay up longer in the rpm band with more camshaft duration, however, I am sure that the wheel combination we are using has its limits. The other thing you have to keep in mind is that I tuned the car on pump gas. I'm not being as aggressive as I can and will be with racegas. We'll see how the numbers come up once I build new fuel and ignition maps for race fuel.
David... if I've missed anything important here, kick me in the *** in the morning when we get to the shop.
The turbo kit will consist of manifold, turbo, stainless o2 housing, lower intercooler pipe for use with our front mount, gaskets and lines. Everything needed to put this turbo on the car is included and bolts right up to our downpipe. We haven't looked into setting up the kit for the stock intercooler or other downpipes out there. I am sure that we will look into it for those that request it, but our combinations are complete and the intercooler upgrade we offer was specifically configured for our upgraded turbos in mind.
For those that want to see our stock hp/tq curves vs our stage 1 mods, you can find that chart here:
http://www.buschurracing.com/EVO8_STG1_VS_STK_LG.jpg
As far as the curve dropping off...
This car only has 264 intake and exhaust cams. The curve would definately stay up longer in the rpm band with more camshaft duration, however, I am sure that the wheel combination we are using has its limits. The other thing you have to keep in mind is that I tuned the car on pump gas. I'm not being as aggressive as I can and will be with racegas. We'll see how the numbers come up once I build new fuel and ignition maps for race fuel.
David... if I've missed anything important here, kick me in the *** in the morning when we get to the shop.
Jan 29, 2004, 06:57 PM
#74
Originally posted by Zeus
Question David,
We know your turbo is not water cooled. We also know that it has been established that a stock Evo runs very high oil temps. For those of us who are hell-bent on a water cooled turbo for our daily driver, will/can you special order a water cooled center section for us in the BR475? I'd pay (when I can) an extra $500 for a water jacket long before I would pay extra for a ball bearing section (not that BB is needed on the BR475). If not, could you suggest a route to go as I'm unbending on this subject (I'm sure there will be others with all the talk about oil/oil temps lately).
Question David,
We know your turbo is not water cooled. We also know that it has been established that a stock Evo runs very high oil temps. For those of us who are hell-bent on a water cooled turbo for our daily driver, will/can you special order a water cooled center section for us in the BR475? I'd pay (when I can) an extra $500 for a water jacket long before I would pay extra for a ball bearing section (not that BB is needed on the BR475). If not, could you suggest a route to go as I'm unbending on this subject (I'm sure there will be others with all the talk about oil/oil temps lately).
David, I got left out of "everyone getting their questions answered
Do I come across confrontational?
Jan 29, 2004, 07:00 PM
#75
Thanks Tym. I know you get as frustrated as I do sometimes with this dyno ****. Glad you cleared it up for me.
Superz,
You say how is 400 whp on a 2wd dyno a gain? Well I think if you go back and look at the charts I posted of the stock turbo at 346 hp and the new turbo at 401 hp you will see a gain of 65 whp. That's not a gain? You friends dyno'ing 365-370 on race gas on AWD dyno's (First I don't believe it) and second that is comparing racegas to 94 octane pump gas. The car was set up on pump gas and with this the car is not tuned with the ultimate timing curve or the maximum boost. This is a STREET tune that would put the car in the 11.4's at 118+ mph, on 94 octane. That's not good?
wadzii,
Not a real 400 hp? Since you are a factory trained EMS tuner please feel free to duplicate our times and whp with a similar set up as we just did, then when it is all over we can talk more seriously about it. How much HP does it take to get a 3300 pound car to run 11.65 at 117.88 mph? Pretty darn close to 400 wouldn't you agree? The car made 390 on the stock turbo and race gas and ran that time and MPH. How far off is that POS 2wd dyno we use? I'm tired of fighting about the 2wd vs. 4wd vs. dyno dynamics vs. whatever the hell else you want to use.
mhgsx,
The HP drop at this point is easy to explain. Number one the timing curve, as Tym said, is FAR from being close to what it should be. The pump gas limits what you can do and keep a car in one piece. Also the 264 cams run out of air where you see it starting to fall off. As you can see we ran the car to just about 8,000 rpm. I don't think you will find another dyno chart on an EVO that has run to 8,000 rpm on the stock engine. From what we tested on the valve springs there is a REAL good chance they are floating by then, weak, weak springs.
You will notice the curve is super strong all the way to 7200 or so.
Thanks for the questions, please drop the damn "my dyno is the best crap".
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Superz,
You say how is 400 whp on a 2wd dyno a gain? Well I think if you go back and look at the charts I posted of the stock turbo at 346 hp and the new turbo at 401 hp you will see a gain of 65 whp. That's not a gain? You friends dyno'ing 365-370 on race gas on AWD dyno's (First I don't believe it) and second that is comparing racegas to 94 octane pump gas. The car was set up on pump gas and with this the car is not tuned with the ultimate timing curve or the maximum boost. This is a STREET tune that would put the car in the 11.4's at 118+ mph, on 94 octane. That's not good?
wadzii,
Not a real 400 hp? Since you are a factory trained EMS tuner please feel free to duplicate our times and whp with a similar set up as we just did, then when it is all over we can talk more seriously about it. How much HP does it take to get a 3300 pound car to run 11.65 at 117.88 mph? Pretty darn close to 400 wouldn't you agree? The car made 390 on the stock turbo and race gas and ran that time and MPH. How far off is that POS 2wd dyno we use? I'm tired of fighting about the 2wd vs. 4wd vs. dyno dynamics vs. whatever the hell else you want to use.
mhgsx,
The HP drop at this point is easy to explain. Number one the timing curve, as Tym said, is FAR from being close to what it should be. The pump gas limits what you can do and keep a car in one piece. Also the 264 cams run out of air where you see it starting to fall off. As you can see we ran the car to just about 8,000 rpm. I don't think you will find another dyno chart on an EVO that has run to 8,000 rpm on the stock engine. From what we tested on the valve springs there is a REAL good chance they are floating by then, weak, weak springs.
You will notice the curve is super strong all the way to 7200 or so.
Thanks for the questions, please drop the damn "my dyno is the best crap".
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com