Divided Wastegate issue
Jul 12, 2012, 09:10 AM
#32
The yellow spring (.5 bar) made 19psi on the leakdown tester and on the car. i still feel like the springs are wrong. my friend just tried to get tuned on his civic with twin mvs setup 2 days ago and i found out he ran into a spring issue as well.
Jul 12, 2012, 10:23 AM
#34
Evolved Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: MI
Posts: 611
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
if you want more, keep adding springs until you hit 25psi base then adjust up from there?
Jul 12, 2012, 07:49 PM
#36
Evolved Member
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Mesoamerica/ SF Bay Area
Posts: 7,905
Likes: 0
Received 5 Likes
on
5 Posts
Am I the only person that thinks the OP's stock frame turbo is way over-gated?...I mean it is just a Black. It should be good to go with the a stock, ported integral gate and a 25 PSI actuator. Am I missing something here?
What would happen to peak boost pressure if you were to block off one of the two gates and just go with a single Tial gate as an experiment? I ask this question in spite of the likelihood of catching flak about the loss of the twin scroll effect and etc. I just think that it is grotesquely overgated to begin with and that is one ugly, albeit gnarly looking transformer manifold. There I said it
What would happen to peak boost pressure if you were to block off one of the two gates and just go with a single Tial gate as an experiment? I ask this question in spite of the likelihood of catching flak about the loss of the twin scroll effect and etc. I just think that it is grotesquely overgated to begin with and that is one ugly, albeit gnarly looking transformer manifold. There I said it
Jul 13, 2012, 06:24 AM
#37
Evolved Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: MI
Posts: 611
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Am I the only person that thinks the OP's stock frame turbo is way over-gated?...I mean it is just a Black. It should be good to go with the a stock, ported integral gate and a 25 PSI actuator. Am I missing something here?
What would happen to peak boost pressure if you were to block off one of the two gates and just go with a single Tial gate as an experiment? I ask this question in spite of the likelihood of catching flak about the loss of the twin scroll effect and etc. I just think that it is grotesquely overgated to begin with and that is one ugly, albeit gnarly looking transformer manifold. There I said it
What would happen to peak boost pressure if you were to block off one of the two gates and just go with a single Tial gate as an experiment? I ask this question in spite of the likelihood of catching flak about the loss of the twin scroll effect and etc. I just think that it is grotesquely overgated to begin with and that is one ugly, albeit gnarly looking transformer manifold. There I said it
Jul 13, 2012, 06:26 AM
#38
Evolved Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: MI
Posts: 611
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
the chart won't work because of the manifold the gates are on. the gates are mechanical and are set up for a 1:1 backpressure, since you do not have exhaust gas blowing directly at the wastegates, the springs rated pressure are going to skyrocket because the backpressure on the valve itself is going to be much lower than 1:1
Jul 13, 2012, 07:26 AM
#39
the chart won't work because of the manifold the gates are on. the gates are mechanical and are set up for a 1:1 backpressure, since you do not have exhaust gas blowing directly at the wastegates, the springs rated pressure are going to skyrocket because the backpressure on the valve itself is going to be much lower than 1:1
What pressure should a 1bar spring open at with zero exhaust backpressure? I will put regulated air to my wastegates this weekend and see where they open with the gate off the car.
Last edited by batty200; Jul 13, 2012 at 07:29 AM.
Jul 13, 2012, 07:30 AM
#40
Evolved Member
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Mesoamerica/ SF Bay Area
Posts: 7,905
Likes: 0
Received 5 Likes
on
5 Posts
Obviously, you are right about the above. I am just thinking that if in most cases the stock MHI integral gate on the 10.5cm housing controls boost adequately on any Black, that with twin Tial remote gates each of which flows more exhaust gas volume than a single, wimpy stock internal gate, that one Tial should be more than adequate to vent the exhaust flow.
I am thinking that he can't boost over 25 PSI because the twin Tial gates are actually doing too good of a job and not enough exhaust gas energy is arriving at the turbine. I see it as his twin gates are venting off too much flow before it hits the turbine wheel. There is not enough exhaust energy left to drive the turbine wheel.
Why did the OP forsake the stock internally gated setup in the first place? Was it because the front facing orientation and the architecture of the header didn't allow enough space for the actuator setup?
I think that he might be better off with clocking the Black in the standard orientation and going with the much cleaner ETS dual flanged stock turbo header, or else keeping the stock internally gated housing and if that does not control boost by itself then keep the internal gate, but back it up with one single Tial sourced at the collector. Just my opinion though which is worth squat in the final analysis.
I think with the twin remote gates he is bleeding off too much exhaust energy and that thus the turbine wheel is not seeing enough flow to boost beyond 25 PSI.
I am thinking that he can't boost over 25 PSI because the twin Tial gates are actually doing too good of a job and not enough exhaust gas energy is arriving at the turbine. I see it as his twin gates are venting off too much flow before it hits the turbine wheel. There is not enough exhaust energy left to drive the turbine wheel.
Why did the OP forsake the stock internally gated setup in the first place? Was it because the front facing orientation and the architecture of the header didn't allow enough space for the actuator setup?
I think that he might be better off with clocking the Black in the standard orientation and going with the much cleaner ETS dual flanged stock turbo header, or else keeping the stock internally gated housing and if that does not control boost by itself then keep the internal gate, but back it up with one single Tial sourced at the collector. Just my opinion though which is worth squat in the final analysis.
I think with the twin remote gates he is bleeding off too much exhaust energy and that thus the turbine wheel is not seeing enough flow to boost beyond 25 PSI.
Last edited by sparky; Jul 13, 2012 at 07:36 AM.
Jul 13, 2012, 07:33 AM
#41
Evolved Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: MI
Posts: 611
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I find this to be very odd. I have used TiAL wastegates for years and using a 5psi spring where there was a o2 housing mounted wastegate with a 90degree exit from the turbine housing and it held 5psi all day. There was ZERO wastegate priority and I have had 5th runner wastegate placement with the wastegate doing a virtual 180 to come up and out of the collector and still had zero issues with boost control. This was using a MUCH larger turbine wheel and housing combo which would have considerably less backpressure than the Black. Pressure is not directional and should not need the exhaust to be slamming into the wastegate seat to "push" it open.
What pressure should a 1bar spring open at with zero exhaust backpressure? I will put regulated air to my wastegates this weekend and see where they open with the gate off the car.
What pressure should a 1bar spring open at with zero exhaust backpressure? I will put regulated air to my wastegates this weekend and see where they open with the gate off the car.
a 1bar will crack open at around 22-23psi on a bench
Jul 13, 2012, 07:40 AM
#42
Evolved Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: MI
Posts: 611
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Obviously, you are right about the above. I am just thinking that if in most cases the stock MHI integral gate on the 10.5cm housing controls boost adequately on any Black, that with twin Tial remote gates each of which flows more exhaust gas volume than a single, wimpy stock internal gate, that one Tial should be more than adequate to vent the exhaust flow.
I am thinking that he can't boost over 25 PSI because the twin Tial gates are actually doing too good of a job and not enough exhaust gas energy is arriving at the turbine. I see it as his twin gates are venting off too much flow before it hits the turbine wheel. There is not enough exhaust energy left to drive the turbine wheel.
Why did the OP forsake the stock internally gated setup in the first place? Was it because the front facing orientation and the architecture of the header didn't allow enough space for the actuator setup?
I think that he might be better off with clocking the Black in the standard orientation and going with the much cleaner ETS dual flanged stock turbo header, or else keeping the stock internally gated housing and if that does not control boost by itself then keep the internal gate, but back it up with one single Tial sourced at the collector. Just my opinion though which is worth squat in the final analysis.
I think with the twin remote gates he is bleeding off too much exhaust energy and that thus the turbine wheel is not seeing enough flow to boost beyond 25 PSI.
I am thinking that he can't boost over 25 PSI because the twin Tial gates are actually doing too good of a job and not enough exhaust gas energy is arriving at the turbine. I see it as his twin gates are venting off too much flow before it hits the turbine wheel. There is not enough exhaust energy left to drive the turbine wheel.
Why did the OP forsake the stock internally gated setup in the first place? Was it because the front facing orientation and the architecture of the header didn't allow enough space for the actuator setup?
I think that he might be better off with clocking the Black in the standard orientation and going with the much cleaner ETS dual flanged stock turbo header, or else keeping the stock internally gated housing and if that does not control boost by itself then keep the internal gate, but back it up with one single Tial sourced at the collector. Just my opinion though which is worth squat in the final analysis.
I think with the twin remote gates he is bleeding off too much exhaust energy and that thus the turbine wheel is not seeing enough flow to boost beyond 25 PSI.
Jul 13, 2012, 07:44 AM
#43
Evolved Member
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Mesoamerica/ SF Bay Area
Posts: 7,905
Likes: 0
Received 5 Likes
on
5 Posts
I find this to be very odd. I have used TiAL wastegates for years and....there was a o2 housing mounted wastegate with a 90degree exit from the turbine housing and it held 5psi all day. There was ZERO wastegate priority and I have had 5th runner wastegate placement with the wastegate doing a virtual 180 to come up and out of the collector and still had zero issues with boost control..... Pressure is not directional and should not need the exhaust to be slamming into the wastegate seat to "push" it open...
Jul 13, 2012, 07:49 AM
#44
Evolved Member
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Mesoamerica/ SF Bay Area
Posts: 7,905
Likes: 0
Received 5 Likes
on
5 Posts
I still want you to answer my question about his Black being overgated. Theoretically shouldn't a single one of those two Tial remote gates be enough to control boost on an FP Black 2-Liter setup? In practice most guys can control boost on a Black with the stock internal gate. A JB Black is not really a fast spooling turbo. I am not really trying to be argumentative.
Last edited by sparky; Jul 13, 2012 at 07:52 AM.
Jul 13, 2012, 07:51 AM
#45
Evolved Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: MI
Posts: 611
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree with the Batster here. Pressure is pressure no matter where you sample it between the exhaust valves and the turbine inlet area. Well,the only exception would be on a TS setup, where the collector area on a TS manifold will see higher pressure spikes than any one individual runner.