What electronic boost controller do you use?
Jan 12, 2013, 03:11 AM
#31
The primary reason why one would need to change boost settings is to accommodate a change in fuels. The ECU holds two complete, independent maps that can be toggled from the driver's seat while on the fly. Otherwise, fiddling with boost settings without accessing the ECU's fuel and ignition maps, or datalogging (all of which require accessing the ECU anyway), isn't a particularly good idea.
When it comes to these outboard dongles, I see the disadvantages of cost, added hardware, and a potential source of issues, all for features one already has at his disposal.
When it comes to these outboard dongles, I see the disadvantages of cost, added hardware, and a potential source of issues, all for features one already has at his disposal.
As a tuner, I find it convenient & less time consuming to use an EBC or even MBC, they allow me to incrementally & predictably increase boost as I build the tune until I reach my boost goal.
EBCs can be expensive, but they are actually 3 parts in 1, a control unit, a boost solenoid, & a boost gauge.
Jan 12, 2013, 05:30 AM
#32
Not to debate you, but the 3port allows the same predictble and incremental changes to boost once you set a basewgdc and work up to targets. To me it is a more simple method with less hardware and money then an actual ebc. Omni 4bar and the grimmspeed was less than half of the price of an ebc.
Jan 12, 2013, 06:33 AM
#33
Still, it's one less process to do, It's no debate, it's mostly going to be the user/owner preference rather than the tuner's. I'd definitely recommend the GS 3port based on my experience, tuning an 08 STi with GS solenoid installed. I'd also recommend several EBC types based on my experience. The HKS EVC is very precise with boost targets & has a very accurate boost gauge. A quality boost gauge could cost around $150-$200
As for me personally, I'm very happy with my MBC :]
As for me personally, I'm very happy with my MBC :]
Jan 12, 2013, 06:53 AM
#34
I ran a MBC on my WRX and I liked it a lot too. It was, in my opinion, easier to use and tune. Fiddling with the tuning maps can be somewhat of a hassle, but at the end of the day the electronic boost control solenoid allows us to raise boost and lower boost based on knock feedback. I do like that, and that's why with the evo I went with this grimmspeed EBCS. I feel like when we can use the ecu to control boost with target precision, I can get the most out of my build. With a manual boost controller, i would be limited to where I knock at high RPM and then have to leave boost there. If I can run 30 psi in the low RPM and then taper it to 25 so it doesn't knock up top, I'd rather do that then just run 25 across the board.
That's my theory anyways. Has anyone ever ran into that issue though? On my wrx build, I wasn't limited by knock but by the weak subaru block not being able to take more than 28 psi; so I left it at 23 for racing and tuned it down to 21 for daily driving.
That's my theory anyways. Has anyone ever ran into that issue though? On my wrx build, I wasn't limited by knock but by the weak subaru block not being able to take more than 28 psi; so I left it at 23 for racing and tuned it down to 21 for daily driving.
Jan 12, 2013, 07:52 AM
#35
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Not to debate you, but the 3port allows the same predictble and incremental changes to boost once you set a basewgdc and work up to targets. To me it is a more simple method with less hardware and money then an actual ebc. Omni 4bar and the grimmspeed was less than half of the price of an ebc.
Jan 12, 2013, 08:23 AM
#36
With MBCs, even good brands, boost is likely to taper down at high rpm. Preventing boost from tapering is usually the goal to achieve by tuners, it's actually the main reason to use a 3-port solenoid & perhaps an EBC. Lower high rpm boost should be easily achievable by various means
Many EBCs have multiple boost targets for different RPM.
Again, all are good options, I suggest that you do some research & consult with your tuner.
Many EBCs have multiple boost targets for different RPM.
Again, all are good options, I suggest that you do some research & consult with your tuner.
Jan 12, 2013, 10:12 AM
#38
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With MBCs, even good brands, boost is likely to taper down at high rpm. Preventing boost from tapering is usually the goal to achieve by tuners, it's actually the main reason to use a 3-port solenoid & perhaps an EBC. Lower high rpm boost should be easily achievable by various means
Many EBCs have multiple boost targets for different RPM.
Again, all are good options, I suggest that you do some research & consult with your tuner.
Many EBCs have multiple boost targets for different RPM.
Again, all are good options, I suggest that you do some research & consult with your tuner.
Jan 12, 2013, 12:03 PM
#39
Jan 12, 2013, 12:45 PM
#40
I've read this thread https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ec...ly-debate.html ...
The OP in the discussion in question was made before Tephra's V7 software revolutionized ECU based boost control. That effectively eliminated spool advantages attributable to an MBC.
For starters, you must ask yourself what you intend to do with the car. Are you using a stock style turbo and WG assembly? Are you just after more power without any definite goals, or are you after best possible power in each gear? For a good synopsis of the real picture, see Touring Bubble's comment (#41).
I've tuned both MBCs and 3-port/ECU in EVOs. Tweaking electronic boost control is like tweaking fuel and ignition maps. It takes time and demands competence. The reward is more power, and much more consistent control regardless of what's happening outside. Not everyone has the ability nor wants to invest in that type of tuning attention. That's just reality, and one must make realistic decisions when it comes to hardware and tuning.
When I tune an EVO, I consider the tuning in each and every gear. Any EVO will tolerate more boost in the lower gears than higher gears due to substantial differences in loading. For example, in my setup, the WG stays shut in 1st and 2nd gear. There is less load on the engine, and it will tolerate more boost. That cannot be done with an MBC. Also, my setup delivers the same boost regardless of ambient conditions. An MBC can't do that either. Basically, an MBC takes a 3D movie and converts it to 2D. That may not matter to some, but it does to others.
In short:
MBC - simpler, easier tuning, requires adjustment to maintain consistency when ambient conditions change, cannot be tweaked to deliver best possible power by gear. Cheap hardware.
ECU/3-port - demands more tuning but offers better control, ability to tune for best power by gear, compensates for changes in ambient conditions. Cheap hardware, more tuning involved.
EBC - Does more or less the same thing as ECU/3-port, but involves purchasing a third-party device and installation. Expensive hardware, provides a visual display.
Jan 12, 2013, 03:43 PM
#41
MBC - simpler, easier tuning, requires adjustment to maintain consistency when ambient conditions change, cannot be tweaked to deliver best possible power by gear. Cheap hardware.
ECU/3-port - demands more tuning but offers better control, ability to tune for best power by gear, compensates for changes in ambient conditions. Cheap hardware, more tuning involved.
EBC - Does more or less the same thing as ECU/3-port, but involves purchasing a third-party device and installation. Expensive hardware, provides a visual display.
ECU/3-port - demands more tuning but offers better control, ability to tune for best power by gear, compensates for changes in ambient conditions. Cheap hardware, more tuning involved.
EBC - Does more or less the same thing as ECU/3-port, but involves purchasing a third-party device and installation. Expensive hardware, provides a visual display.
People will have different preferences for various reasons. With one of the cars I tuned the owner chose ECU/3-port simply because he didn't want to install any non-oem looking display or gauge on the dash nor he wanted a cheap looking MBC in the engine compartment
Jan 12, 2013, 05:18 PM
#42
Very well explained.
People will have different preferences for various reasons. With one of the cars I tuned the owner chose ECU/3-port simply because he didn't want to install any non-oem looking display or gauge on the dash nor he wanted a cheap looking MBC in the engine compartment
People will have different preferences for various reasons. With one of the cars I tuned the owner chose ECU/3-port simply because he didn't want to install any non-oem looking display or gauge on the dash nor he wanted a cheap looking MBC in the engine compartment
I agree with this. The oem one is ugly. I'll admit I like a fancy engine compartment, but I want it functional too.
Jan 12, 2013, 05:49 PM
#43
When I tune an EVO, I consider the tuning in each and every gear. Any EVO will tolerate more boost in the lower gears than higher gears due to substantial differences in loading. For example, in my setup, the WG stays shut in 1st and 2nd gear. There is less load on the engine, and it will tolerate more boost. That cannot be done with an MBC. Also, my setup delivers the same boost regardless of ambient conditions. An MBC can't do that either. Basically, an MBC takes a 3D movie and converts it to 2D. That may not matter to some, but it does to others.
Those are great reasons. I am sold on it!
Jan 12, 2013, 06:01 PM
#44
I am a stickler for efficiency and function when it comes to tuning, as well as many others. There is a lot of work up front to get the EBCS working properly to your liking. No matter what the weather conditions, I will hit and hold 260 load from 3250 to 6k, and taper to 235 load by 7k. With an MBC, you have to physically adjust it for weather changes. Why do the work yourself? It's easier to let a well setup ecu do it for you.