SILVER SURFER

Sorry, just noticed the graphs were a little messed up, try this one.

juyanith

iTrader: (7)

I'm not trying to pick a fight, but isn't 15% Drivetrain Loss a bit optimistic for an AWD vehicle? Then again, if the car is 3200 lbs, you're allowing 300 lbs for the driver.

SILVER SURFER

Maybe I am a little to defensive if people are now shy about commenting/questioning my data? All I ask is that people keep an open mind and thoroughly read my post before replying.

The point I was trying to make was that you need about an additional 10WHP to pick up 1MPH in the quarter mile. Changing the drive train loss from 15 to 20 percent will not change the estimated WHP, all it would do is change the estimated crank HP.

Personally I think the drive train loss is much closer to 15% maybe even less as the power level increases. This is somewhat academic since the power that actually makes it to the tires is what really counts for performance.
There has already been plenty of disscussion on this subject, I have used up a little band width on it myself. So I don't really want to get side tracked with that disscussion here. All I was trying to show is that so far, the the dyno testing and track testing seem to agree. The low RPM dyno results don't seem to match real world testing, but the high RPM does. More testing needs to be done to verify my perceptions and acceleration testing on the street.

There does seem to be enough positve data here to warrant futher investigation. With all of the people out there with 272/272 cams and adjustable gears I am kind of surprised more people have not tried it yet, especially since it's so easy to do.

Any one in my area with adjustable cam gears (doesnt matter which cams your running), if your interested in doing some test and tune send me a PM.

Eric Lyublinsky

iTrader: (5)

Most people are not trying this because they don't tune or know how to tune cars. I understand what you have achieved but with out doing it on a dyno and logging Timing and the differences between every change it's tough to really see witch sets in a universal way would work for everyone. Having adjustable cam gears on a car with after market cams is a necessity to make the most amount of HP. Cam timing can have a very large impact on drivability and knock resistant. But every car would be different as you stated. Thanks for the great info you are posting here. It gives you a better understanding of cam timing and tuning.

Eric

Fourdoor

iTrader: (11)

Actually, the car is 3260, and myself fully dressed with helmet, plus my laptop and variouse junk in the car (tools, funnel, various crap) my race weight is almost exactly 3400 lbs.

Keith

SILVER SURFER

Yea I know what your saying, and there will be more detailed test data coming. I was just so excited by the initial results I felt it was worth sharing even without indepth test data, plus I wanted feedback/confirmation, (which I have gotten to a some extent).
You don't need to be an ueber tunner to reposition the gears and see if the car runs better, makes more power, and has less knock, without even changing your fuel/ignition timming.
TXEVO and I are running the Power FC and it does not change timming based on knock count, so any power gains realized with this system is due strictly to the cam settings. But I can definiately see that the knock count improved significantly. I believe Fas4dr is running the stock ECU with an AFC, he reported more/smoother timming progression from his OBDII data log. So that would also confirm what the Power FC says about less knock at high boost levels.
With three different cars all seeming to show similiar improvements with the same settings, I guess they are not all that different.

Dam Keith, what do you weigh, like 110 Lbs? Lets just say I am a bit heavier than you

Fourdoor

iTrader: (11)

Actually, that 3260 lbs car weight includes a full tank of fuel. I run around 1/8 to 1/4 tank at the track and you have to subtract around 75 to 90 lbs for the lighter fuel load depending on your fuel level That is where the 80 lb difference comes from (I am right at 200 lbs myself).

Keith

tx evo

iTrader: (7)

Ok, guys I went to the track last night and did some testing myself with the 272/272 cams and gears.

This is my first time down the track with my new cams and cam gears.

I did my first pass at 6:28 p.m., with the cams gears set at -4 and -1.5.

R/T .279
60' 1.786
330 5.202
1/8 80.39
mph 85.60
1000 10.501
1/4 12.559
Mph 111.24

I then took and reset the cams too -3 and -3, also I wait approximately 1 hr till I ran again.

I did my second pass with the new settings, at 7:27 p.m.

R/T .713
60' 1.755
330 5.206
1/8 8.071
mph 84.04
1000 10.672
1/4 12.818
mph 105.64

Some more observation I took note of my water temp for the first run was 79 degrees and 83 degrees for my second run. On top of the RPM I logged at a shift of 7642 for my first run and 7597 for my second run. All three launches were at 5000 RPM.

At 7:48 I did another run with the settings at -3 and -3. The cars bog somewhat so my times where not the best.
Ran 12.912 @ 108.64

SILVER SURFER

That is awsome! BTW I spoke with TXEVO after seeing this post, this was an 80 degree day, running 93 pump gas and 1.5 peak to 1.4 bar average boost.
He has very limited drag race experience and unfortunately only had time for one run with the new cam gear settings (track was crowded).
This was with the same conservative tune he drives with every day, he just drove to the track and got in line. I think with more practice there is easily a low 12 second pass there.
With some race gas, a little more boost, and some slight adjustments to the fuel and timming, he is in the 11's easy. BTW he is still on the original stock clutch . TXEVO correct me if I miss somthing but your power mods are:

MBC
3" TB exhaust with test pipe (UR)
272/272 cams with Unorth adj gears
Power FC
HKS suction intake
Unorthodox under drive crank pulley
Walboro 255 fuel pump

I might have to go to the drag strip one of these days and see what mine will do.

Thanks for sharing your results, and nice job .

SSKILLA

hey silver i have the same cams and cam gears being put it on friday......id like to see more info and data on the cam gear settings.....lol i cant hit a dyno cause my cash is a little low and im not too crazy about the butt dyno cause i dont have acess to data logging or fuel mixture......but any info or data on this would help.......im a little scared about the whole adj. cam gears.....ive heard some stories.....

Fourdoor

iTrader: (11)

If I have this strait, you are saying you had best results with the intake cam retarded 4 deg and the exhaust cam retarded 1.5 deg. Is that correct? I am adjusting mine right now and want to get it right

Keith

PS: Told the people who installed my cam gears to set them at -3/-3. When I took off the upper timing belt cover I found both of them zeroed out! What is the point of cam gears if you arn't going to use them

Shahul X

iTrader: (3)

-4 , -1.5 seems to be the concensus.... with HKS 272/272's anyways....

after my AMS LICP and FMIC, this is my next project.... I trust the Silver Surfer, sometimes Thor also.... but never Thanos

-Shahul

Fourdoor

iTrader: (11)

How in the hell do you guys adjust your cam gears so rapidly? Took me forever to get them set up at -4/-1.5 with the HKS adjustable cam gears. Damn things don't like to turn even with all the hold down screws backed out and completely lose. Getting the crap out of the way to remove the valve cover took me a long time as well.

When I see you talking about making adjustment after adjustment after adjustment to check the results, I have to say either you are one dedicated Mother f!@#cker or you have a technique that is much faster and easier than mine

Keith

SILVER SURFER

Don't be scared SSkilla You have got five good bolts holding each of those things in place. Look, Four door is not scared, and he has only got three bolts All the storys I have seen have been sombody who knows sombody that this has happened too If any of these stories are even true it was most likely because they forgot too or improperly tightened the locking bolts. There are just way to many people using them without incident to take these stories very seriously.
However, it is easier than you might think to forget to tighten the locking bolts, especially when its late and your making all kinds of adjustments. I almost did myself once, but as long as your careful there is nothing to worry about.

Let's get real here, there are nuts and bolts keeping all sorts of critical components together in your engine. You don't lay awake at night thinking some of those other bolts are going to suddenly come loose do you?

My buddy has been to busy to get together and set his dyno lab system on my car, So I finally went and ordered a G-tech Pro today. Once I figure out how to get consistent measurements with that I will post more cam gear test data.

Oh no! Eric with a new toy knowing me there will be a lot of those G-tech graphs flying around here before to long


Yes.

Untill I am completely satified with my cam gear settings I just leave the cover off. Unless your going off road there is very little chance that a rock or somthing is going to get caught up in there. If you think your done adjusting then I definiatly recommend putting the cover back on. But I know people who have been driving around for years with there cam gears exposed.
So I just loosen five bolts and tap the 17mm wrench with the palm of my hand till I get it where I want, only take 5-10min. Sometimes if it doesn't want to move it was because one of the bolts I thought was loose wasn't. Oh and don't be afraid to kick the starter once or twice if the gears don't land in a good spot for loosening the bolts or seeing the adjustment gauge.

SSKILLA

first question is if any one else has gotten good results with these setting because im thinking of just leaving them at 00


my second question is ......isnt it a bad thing to retard both???


and finally shouldnt the intake cam be advanced and the exaust retarded.....im kinda new to this so im a little paranoid about messing up my valves or head so please bear withme here