poonpower

Motor was rebuilt last year, with 156mm rods, Manley pistons. Rods and Mains were 0.002", and the PTW was 0.0045". Oil pump was reused but took the gears apart and measured as indicated by the manual. All new sensors, including oil pressure and knock sensors. First oil change after start up was 30mins, then oil change after every 80-100km.

Sequence of events:
- primed the engine with the starter motor, no fuel no spark plug during priming. Oil light on the dash never went off
- on the very first initial start up, the car would not idle, and we chased this problem for a good month or so, with maybe 2 or 3 start ups per week. I had to rev it to 2-3000 just to keep it running, either stationary or moving from 1st gear
- went SD to see if the MAF was bad, and sure enough it was gone. Had it running well on SD
- converted to ECMLink as the tuner was more comfortable on link
- turbo was starved of oil after the pre-turbo oil filter clogged up. Instead of using the good FP filter, I used a cheap single layer mesh screen filter. after that the pre-turbo oil filter was ditched. It was rebuilt professionally
- started doing logs, and light boosted runs. Car would have occasional knock spikes after every hard shift. Sometimes 7 counts, some times 20 counts. This would happen from 1st to 4th gear shifts, 100% throttle, up to just below 6000rpm
- installed an oil pressure sender, plugged it up to ECMLink, and surprisingly cold start up was around 20psi, and warm it was around 5-7psi. Oil pressure remained at 5-7psi at all rpms when warm. I didn't have a change to verify the sender was right or not
- on the last boosted log, engine developed a knock, absolutely zero oil pressure, and towed the car home to find a melted #3 rod bearing after ~400km after the rebuilt
- upon further investigation, head looks mint, piston crowns looked carboned up, piston wrist pins were pretty stiff, oil squirters were free flowing, main bearings were mint, #3 rod bearing was the first to go, #4 looked like it was on its way out, #1 and #2 looks ok.
- oil pump gears had zero scoring, oil thermostat and pressure relief valves were mint

That's all that I can think of. I am pretty gutted by this, as everything was either new, or it was within specs. Cleaned the **** out of everything before assembly.

I am looking for ideas on what happened. Perhaps it was my initial start up that I messed up on, or perhaps bits of the starved turbo that messed it up. What I cant figure out was why the knock counts, and the oil pressure not going up with rpm.

I'm hoping posting here would have some pretty smart replies from all the OGs. Facebook just isn't very useful for these sorts of things.

Thank you

LetsGetThisDone

iTrader: (1)

Why were you doing boosted pulls if oil pressure wasn't going up with RPM?

Something was very wrong. Cold start oil pressure should be way higher than 20psi. And warm idle pressure should be over 10psi. Really should be 15-20.

This engine should never have been run. At minimum the oil pump needed to come off for a look see.

We're the balance shaft bearing rolled properly to block off the ports?

Dallas J

iTrader: (1)

Oil pressure light will kick on if idle pressures drop somewhere between 10-15psi, though you may have had that defeated by the ECMLink change. DSMs have the same things but I dont know if you had it hooked up. Can you take a pic of where your oil pressure was sourced from?

If you even just let the car keep idling with less than 10psi of oil, well sorry to say but thats your fault. Regardless of ignorance or knowing, oil pressure is like #1 priority in keeping motors happy. Now add knock pressure spikes on hard shifts. You're just beating up the bearings that have crap for supportive film.

If the block bearings are not spun you can probably get away with changing crank and rods but typically changing a crank is best served by a line bore. Though you may get away without doing that. Pull it apart and evaluate the damage. Buy a new front case since the one you had obviously didnt work.

Ayoustin

iTrader: (2)

He doesn't need the block line bored unless clearances are too loose on a new crank which is highly unlikely.

I'd look at the oil pressure relief spring and plunger before tearing into anything more serious. If that got hung up on something and stuck open you'll never build pressure. Also as mentioned, check your balance shaft oiling holes are properly blocked off if you're not running them.

If the bearings didn't spin then the rods are fine to reuse. Getting a new crank would be a wise idea unless the damage is super minor which would be surprising.

Dallas J

iTrader: (1)

Ive always line bored when changing a crank or changing clamping (main studs instead of bolts). May not be fully necessary with a changed crank as long as bearing clearances are good tho.

Ayoustin

iTrader: (2)

Absolutely needs to be done if changing from bolts to studs. But if clearances aren't too loose but need adjusted it's always easier to swap bearings around or polish the crank a bit more. Line honing engines that use girdles can be a huge ****ing pain if they don't all come into spec at the same time.

LetsGetThisDone

iTrader: (1)

Line hone is mostly done to set bearing crush, and ensure roundness, especially with changing from main bolts to studs.

Otherwise, bearing clearance is set by polishing the crank.

poonpower

Oh jeez many good replies! All I've already pulled the engine and tore it down. The engine is at the machine shop, but i'll try to get more pics so that this thread is more interesting. I just wanted to know what I did wrong and avoid doing those things next time. If this helps anything I also have the Kiggly HLA.

I fully accept my wrong doings, I was oblivious and just blamed the calibration of the oil sender. Both the BS bearings were rotated to block off the ports. It was verified again when I took the engine apart. On this next build I will definitely be adding a mechanical gauge as a reference. From ECMLink theres an option to select the Autometer 2246 sender as an option, and I just assumed the off readings was just uncalibration since thats the model I got.

The oil pressure source was from the OFH, teed off the line going to the turbo. The turbo is a FP red, so I thought that would be a good place to get a tee from since the FP needs a feed from the OFH. The crank was mangled beyond rescue, so I've soured another crank, new rods, and like you said, a new oil pump. I still dont understand why the pressure didnt increase with RPM though, on hindsight I should've stopped right then and there, but if after inspection the oil relief valve was good, it wasnt leaking anywhere why, why was the oil pressure staying the same. The knock signal pick up could've been caused from the bad bearing right from the beginning, so perhaps it was right in the beginning that I messed up the bearing.

I've checked out the OFH, for both the thermostat and the relief valve, but both move pretty smoothly, no real issue that the machinist nor I could see. On this next rebuild I'll be getting a new OFH.


This was #4 rod bearing, #3 was beyond removal

Abacus

iTrader: (9)

Thats unfortunate.Sorry to hear that the engine failed so quickly. There are a lot of things that may have lead to the failure. Something missed in the build or debris blocking oil flow. Here are some things that may help you or someone else on the next go around.

Don't make too many changes from where the car ran before if you don't have too. Keep the same injectors, pump etc.

I would agree with the others on checking the BS bearings ,oil pump and relief valve. Cleaning every passage on the crank even after its back from the machine shop. Clean everything.

FWIW, I wouldn't use the starter to build oil pressure as excessive cranking can move assembly lube away. There is assembly lube on everything and its there to do its job when starting the engine. Three options.
Start it. Again the lube will do its job as oil pressure quickly comes up.
People pack grease into the oil pump and then fire the engine.
Others use a high speed drill to spin the oil pump before first start.
A new turbo also has assembly lube but some have gone as far as to hold the shaft still BEFORE cranking the engine, then let it go once the engine fires after 3-4 seconds.

I wouldn't run a T from the turbo oil feed line since some of the pressure is feeding the turbo and results will be inaccurate. You may be able to T off the factory oil pressure sensor or other location.

Change the oil after ten minutes of revving the engine up and down to 3000 or so while burping the air out of the cooling system.

Put 100 miles on the engine varying speed and low to moderate load on a conservative tune . You don't want to idle the engine .
Cut open the oil filter at 100 miles and see if its clean. Your turbo getting debris was the canary in the coal mine. An fp filter would see the same fate.

Start up oil pressure should be at least 70+ cold. Most see over 100 without balance shafts.
Hot idle pressure should be 15-30 depending on idle speed and clearances.

Hopefully that helps.

LetsGetThisDone

iTrader: (1)

I second everything Abacus said


Since you had oil pressure issues I would replace the front case/oil pump AND the oil filter housing. Since the motor had all the metal going through it, replace the oil cooler/lines and the oil pump pickup tube as well. Have the head go through, hot tanked again, and also have FP go through the turbo since you took the filter off if it's feed line.

Also, pop the baffles off the valve cover and make sure all is clean in there. Drill the old rivets out and tap for M5 Allen screws.

Lumpy Sticks

iTrader: (3)

Dont forget about cleaning out the oil cooler itself. That thing can hold a ton of metal and wipe out a brand new engine fast. Ultrasonic cleaning is the best way if you dont want to replace it.

Dallas J

iTrader: (1)

Never clean out the oil cooler, always replace it. Theres just no way to really clean it all out.

Lumpy Sticks

iTrader: (3)

I 100% agree with you for replacing it. It's the only way to be sure. But we have had more then plenty of customers cheap out and want to get them cleaned instead (different when you are talking about a custom $1000 oil cooler). We have had good luck with the place that ultrasonic cleans them. They flow fluid through while cleaning. Again, it's not a 100% guarantee it will be clean but it's a lot better than nothing.

poonpower

I've done most of the things that you mentioned, even packing lube in the pump and whatnot. But what I did for the initial start up was try to make it idle, and i think that might have contributed to having a bad turbo, then eventually a spun rod.

When you say tee from the factory oil pressure sensor location, do you mean the one in the back of the block? Since I will be getting a new OFH, i might as well get the evo 9 one since they have an extra port for the sensor right.

I already talked to the person that built the turbo, and he said since the wheels are still nice and tight, the CHRA just needs a good clean. At least I have that going for me haha

Yea i'll be dumping the oil cooler for sure. I live in Canada, so summers are usually pretty mild. The original cooler was leaking, so I already replaced it with another unit, so this time I'll be replacing it again for sure.

But how do you guys explain the lack of change in oil pressure with rpm???
The knock after every hard shift, I can sorta get, since the knock sensor could've been picking up the bad bearing. AFR was on point, timing was pulled to see if the knock would go away, but it didnt change anything really

ScubaStevo

Was the pick up tube gasket intact?