Tubular VS Stock manifold
Jul 12, 2004, 04:46 PM
#16
I think the misconception a lot of people have is that stock is not good. In our case, stock is pretty damn good! If Buschur can go mid-11s on a stock turbo, exhaust manifold, and turbine housing, it shows that our stock parts aren't restrictive at all. IMO, spending $1000+ for a tubular exhaust manifold and o2 housing for our stock turbos is not worth it. We might be able to get another 5-10whp by changing those parts, but we can also gain 5-10whp or more from better tuning.
It sucks when we, the consumer, have to buy parts and find out whether or not they work. I do not like spending my own money to do R&D on my car. I wish shops would just do all the testing to find out what works and what doesn't. I think some shops have, but just don't want to publish the results as it will probably hurt sales.
It sucks when we, the consumer, have to buy parts and find out whether or not they work. I do not like spending my own money to do R&D on my car. I wish shops would just do all the testing to find out what works and what doesn't. I think some shops have, but just don't want to publish the results as it will probably hurt sales.
Jul 12, 2004, 04:51 PM
#17
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Originally Posted by MalibuJack
I think in some respects your right.. Ceramic coating will help that since retaining the heat means more expanding gasses, and therefore using that energy to assist spooling the turbo.. I think when your dealing with modifications like this, its all about combination, in and of itself, the aftermarket manifold may offer very little, but combine it with a Stainless O2 housing, Cams, ported head, better flowing manifold, etc.. you will find the gains to be fairly substantail since it only serves to reduce one possible restriction..
On a normally aspirated engine, tube diameter, length and collector diameter contribute to the ability of the engine to scavange (draw more exhaust out of the engine) I can see this being somewhat valid also on a turbocharged engine, however the nature of a turbocharged engine means that there's less of a likelyhood that leftover exhaust gasses in the combustion chamber can contaminate the new charge.. So pairing it with a better cam combination, and lowered restrictions on a less restrictive exhaust manifold could result in better gains than not using the aftermarket manifold.
Now, here's the rub.. Its not necessarily cost effective to do all this optimization to get to apower level that can be attained by a turbo upgrade.. But what you don't sacrifice by going this route is drivability and other compromises. Not to mention, there are some racing classes that prevent you from changing the engines displacement, or using larger turbos.. this would not apply to this route.
On a normally aspirated engine, tube diameter, length and collector diameter contribute to the ability of the engine to scavange (draw more exhaust out of the engine) I can see this being somewhat valid also on a turbocharged engine, however the nature of a turbocharged engine means that there's less of a likelyhood that leftover exhaust gasses in the combustion chamber can contaminate the new charge.. So pairing it with a better cam combination, and lowered restrictions on a less restrictive exhaust manifold could result in better gains than not using the aftermarket manifold.
Now, here's the rub.. Its not necessarily cost effective to do all this optimization to get to apower level that can be attained by a turbo upgrade.. But what you don't sacrifice by going this route is drivability and other compromises. Not to mention, there are some racing classes that prevent you from changing the engines displacement, or using larger turbos.. this would not apply to this route.
Jul 12, 2004, 05:03 PM
#18
I think your money would be better spent on Cams and tuning.. I think optimizing the intake tract, and cylinder head will offer more gains.. once you get to that point, then the gains of an aftermarket exhaust manifold and O2 housing would be more wortwhile.. I'd honestly NEVER spend $1000 on an exhaust manifold though.. $500 is about the max..
Jul 12, 2004, 05:18 PM
#19
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Originally Posted by marksae
I think the misconception a lot of people have is that stock is not good. In our case, stock is pretty damn good! If Buschur can go mid-11s on a stock turbo, exhaust manifold, and turbine housing, it shows that our stock parts aren't restrictive at all. IMO, spending $1000+ for a tubular exhaust manifold and o2 housing for our stock turbos is not worth it. We might be able to get another 5-10whp by changing those parts, but we can also gain 5-10whp or more from better tuning.
Jul 12, 2004, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Quickshift
Check out the borla header. Ceramic coated and equal length . I ordered mine from evostore.com this is a pic from them
http://store2.yimg.com/I/yhst-6811299808595_1799_939244
Cant beat the million mile warrentte from borla .
http://store2.yimg.com/I/yhst-6811299808595_1799_939244
Cant beat the million mile warrentte from borla .
Jul 12, 2004, 05:25 PM
#21
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Originally Posted by marksae
I think the misconception a lot of people have is that stock is not good. In our case, stock is pretty damn good! If Buschur can go mid-11s on a stock turbo, exhaust manifold, and turbine housing, it shows that our stock parts aren't restrictive at all. IMO, spending $1000+ for a tubular exhaust manifold and o2 housing for our stock turbos is not worth it. We might be able to get another 5-10whp by changing those parts, but we can also gain 5-10whp or more from better tuning.
It sucks when we, the consumer, have to buy parts and find out whether or not they work. I do not like spending my own money to do R&D on my car. I wish shops would just do all the testing to find out what works and what doesn't. I think some shops have, but just don't want to publish the results as it will probably hurt sales.
It sucks when we, the consumer, have to buy parts and find out whether or not they work. I do not like spending my own money to do R&D on my car. I wish shops would just do all the testing to find out what works and what doesn't. I think some shops have, but just don't want to publish the results as it will probably hurt sales.
Jul 12, 2004, 06:02 PM
#22
Originally Posted by TurboMaestro
Hey, did you check the picture of my header? Think that's worth $450-$500? looking for feedback...
That's a nice looking header. For $450-500, I'd say it's worth it for looks alone.
Are all the runners one piece? If so, that's a sweet piece. Who makes it?
Jul 12, 2004, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by marksae
That's a nice looking header. For $450-500, I'd say it's worth it for looks alone.
Are all the runners one piece? If so, that's a sweet piece. Who makes it?http://home.comcast.net/~brianmsmothers/flanges.jpg
Last edited by TurboMaestro; Jul 12, 2004 at 06:10 PM.
Jul 12, 2004, 06:11 PM
#24
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I really didn't want to turn this into an ad, I really want to know if these manifolds are even worth getting.......yeah I know, no one has them on their car, so who knows.....hence the super general question...
Jul 12, 2004, 06:15 PM
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I'm not 100% sure on this one...but from the HONDA side of this......tubulars, especially stainles tubalar crack easier. Like it was said before, before you spend the money on tubular.....get something that puts out my HP.
Jul 12, 2004, 06:16 PM
#26
There are measurable gains from these headers, but its value is purely subjective, its not going to be the huge bang for the buck that a full exhaust system, or a boost controller might offer.. Its more of an optimization for what is there.. Its likely that the more you have upgraded, the more value it will have. It certainly wouldn't be the first bolt-on that I tried.. But I have an entire combo that I'll be installing, Stainless header, Titanium Evo VII RS2 Turbo, and Stainless O2 housing.. I think as a combo it should be great on the street.. But also keep in mind I have 272 cams, injectors, intake manifold, and a ported head that will be going on this car too.. Not to mention all of the Buschur components through stage 4..
Jul 12, 2004, 06:24 PM
#27
The thing about stainless headers and cracking is that it can crack at the welds, so you have to look for one with as few welds as possible, and the welds that do exist, should be full penetration and have been welded with the correct methods to prevent contamination (causing the welds to become brittle)
The picture you show is of a good quality manifold.. But its hard to tell the thickness.. The big problem with turbo manifolds is the weight they support.. If you do not want your manifold to crack, you will have to support the weight of the turbo in some way, also you should consider using a downpipe with a flex section this way the weight of the exhaust system, or just the rigidity of the downpipe and the movement of the engine isn't stressing the welds.. I created brackets to support the turbo's weight which rests against the engine block so its weight and movement shouldn't allow it to stress the header.. It won't completely eliminate the possibility of cracking, but simple things do help..
The picture you show is of a good quality manifold.. But its hard to tell the thickness.. The big problem with turbo manifolds is the weight they support.. If you do not want your manifold to crack, you will have to support the weight of the turbo in some way, also you should consider using a downpipe with a flex section this way the weight of the exhaust system, or just the rigidity of the downpipe and the movement of the engine isn't stressing the welds.. I created brackets to support the turbo's weight which rests against the engine block so its weight and movement shouldn't allow it to stress the header.. It won't completely eliminate the possibility of cracking, but simple things do help..
Jul 12, 2004, 06:27 PM
#28
I've been running the DNP manifold on my DSM for almost 2 years now, daily driven, and it is fine. The manifold is very high quality and is made of thick-walled 321 stainless steel, not the cheaper 304 stainless like others have. In my opinion, if you want to go equal-length tubular stainless, make sure it is thick-walled and 321 instead of 304.
Here is a picture of my setup almost 2 years ago before I installed it:
Eric
Edit: Also, I would highly recommend to get the manifold coated to keep the engine bay temps down. I had to fab my own heat shield to help since I didn't coat mine.
Here is a picture of my setup almost 2 years ago before I installed it:
Eric
Edit: Also, I would highly recommend to get the manifold coated to keep the engine bay temps down. I had to fab my own heat shield to help since I didn't coat mine.
Last edited by l2r99gst; Jul 12, 2004 at 06:30 PM.
Jul 12, 2004, 06:27 PM
#29
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Originally Posted by MalibuJack
The thing about stainless headers and cracking is that it can crack at the welds, so you have to look for one with as few welds as possible, and the welds that do exist, should be full penetration and have been welded with the correct methods to prevent contamination (causing the welds to become brittle)
The picture you show is of a good quality manifold.. But its hard to tell the thickness.. The big problem with turbo manifolds is the weight they support.. If you do not want your manifold to crack, you will have to support the weight of the turbo in some way, also you should consider using a downpipe with a flex section this way the weight of the exhaust system, or just the rigidity of the downpipe and the movement of the engine isn't stressing the welds.. I created brackets to support the turbo's weight which rests against the engine block so its weight and movement shouldn't allow it to stress the header.. It won't completely eliminate the possibility of cracking, but simple things do help..
The picture you show is of a good quality manifold.. But its hard to tell the thickness.. The big problem with turbo manifolds is the weight they support.. If you do not want your manifold to crack, you will have to support the weight of the turbo in some way, also you should consider using a downpipe with a flex section this way the weight of the exhaust system, or just the rigidity of the downpipe and the movement of the engine isn't stressing the welds.. I created brackets to support the turbo's weight which rests against the engine block so its weight and movement shouldn't allow it to stress the header.. It won't completely eliminate the possibility of cracking, but simple things do help..