TurboTrix Flash vs. Dynoflaah
Jul 23, 2004, 07:16 PM
#137
Evolved Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Riverview, FL
Posts: 1,118
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Because it seems that Al cannot post in this section, I will have to take it upon myself to set the record straight...
1. Once you have the custom tuned DynoFlash you can get FREE unlimited through the mail upgrades whenever you add or subtract parts for the life of your car.
2. Al is constantly doing R&D and tuning in order to support all popular aftermarket modifications, including turbo kits.
3. Once you have the full custom tune you can get a full custom retune for only $350 if you want another custom tune instead of a free through the mail upgrade.
4. I paid only $475 for my custom tune and there is a DynoFlash supported resale program where I can sell my flash rights to another person and recover a significant portion of my investment.
Just the facts...
1. Once you have the custom tuned DynoFlash you can get FREE unlimited through the mail upgrades whenever you add or subtract parts for the life of your car.
2. Al is constantly doing R&D and tuning in order to support all popular aftermarket modifications, including turbo kits.
3. Once you have the full custom tune you can get a full custom retune for only $350 if you want another custom tune instead of a free through the mail upgrade.
4. I paid only $475 for my custom tune and there is a DynoFlash supported resale program where I can sell my flash rights to another person and recover a significant portion of my investment.
Just the facts...
Jul 23, 2004, 07:34 PM
#138
Evolving Member
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Milford, CT
Posts: 217
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi All,
Just wanted to clear a few things up and also ask a few questions of my own. This is actually my first post here and the reason behind that is because I don't want to be involved in all this soap opera drama, but somehow we always seemed to get dragged in. I decided to post in on this thread because it just gets to a point to where enough is enough and have decided to get involved in this forum. Anyone, in our situation, would actually get this point after all the B.S. that gets thrown around here. I read most of this stuff and just laugh, well enough laughing because I take plenty of pride in our tuning, ability, know-how, experience, and craftsmenship. Like I said before enough is enough.
First I'd like to talk about our dyno that everyone says has inflated numbers. Where is this coming from? Because one guy went to another dyno and got 15 less horse power? That is ridiculous!! The only way for someone to know for sure how a dyno reads from another dyno is: Dyno at shop A, put car on trailer, goto to shop B on same day with same conditons and re-dyno. Otherwise all testing is worthless, especially with piggy-back systems that allow the ecu to relearn. Most of you are not in the business and have 0 experience with any of the things that are disscussed in here and have no idea what can be serouis variables. Here are some examples for the not so knowledgable.
1. Tire pressure: a vehicle with less tire pressure creates more drag and sucks up power. We have tested this in years past and have differences of 10 h.p. depending on tire pressure.
2. Humidity and temp: This is obvious as vehicles tested in 70 degree weather with no humidity make more power that cars in 90 degree weather with humidity. This can be as much as 50 H.P. depending on motor type, intercooler type, etc... Generally a 4 cyl turbocharged motor will lose a horsepower per degree of temp. increased.
3. Drag on rollers: I don't care what type of chasis dyno you have, they all have bearings. If the bearings are not properly lubricated it will cause more drag, this a lower number. We happen to do monthly maintenece on ours, so we know our brakes are not getting hung up, our bearings are good, etc.. We have tested this theory in years past by touching one roller slightly with our shoe during a run and have lost as much as 9 h.p. We also have had our brakes not function properly about 3 years ago and had cars dynoing at 50 h.p. less that what they should have.
I could go on, but I don't want to waste people's time. But I would like to tell a quick story about a guy in my area who bought a dyno before we got ours and eneded up having to sell it beacuse his read very low and everyone knew it, even I knew it and no one would use it. I know this for sure because I put down 350 h.p. 8 years ago on a 1 g eclipse that was full weight and went to the track the next day with identical conditions and went 11.2 @122. There was obviosly a problem with his dyno.
Bottom line is most dynos read the same. And as far as proving it, I will dyno anyones car for free that dynos their car anywhere else on the same day and is off by more that 10 h.p. I don't care what dyno you dyno at. I have done comparisons of Mustang dynos, Clayton dynos, Dynojet dynos, Dyna-Pac dynos. etc.. All have been with in 5- 10 h.p. at most. Some have been with in 0 h.p. Please don't forget we have had a dyno for over 5 years. More than most in this type of business.
On another note, I just want to say how it is really difficult to run a business under the microscope of the internet. When a customer is being irrational about a situation you pretty much have to kiss their *** so the customer doesn't go on-line and bash you. It's ridiculous and gives an upper hand to some real idiots and people who are ruthless and full of themselves and everyone in this profession has to deal with it. Whether it be Bushur, Vishnu, Turbotrix, AMS, Dynoflash, or anyone else in the business, We all have to deal with it!! Is there a website dedicated to Plumbers and what a good or bad job they do? Is there a website dedicated to Well diggers or Electricians and how they do their job? How about Contractors, Computer programmers, or Baggers at the grocery store? Are their forums about them? What I'm getting at is the internet can make or break you by how well you play the internet game. Some shops play it better than others. Some shops spend all their time online and try to steal customers, while some shops just do a damn good job. A few things people fail to realize is that, just because 1 idiot comes online and posts a negative comment people assume its true for some reason, and that goes for positive posts also. Like i said, It's all how you play this internet game.I could go on with this too, but I don't want to bore, just inform you.
Something people fail to realize about the professional shops is, this is what we do for a living. This is how we put food on our table. When there is a negative post from one customer who didn't have the best experience for what ever reason, they try to wreck that shop. WHY! Have you ever made a mistake at work? Did your boss or customer post it on line and trash you? Are you perfect? Just because this is your hobby and things didn't workout exactly as you planned it, you want to ruin another person's livelyhood? I just don't get most of the people on this board, that's why I don't normally post here. I thought this board was to help each other out, give ideas, promote, etc.. Most are here to attack and destroy! It's reallly too bad it has to be this way. I have wanted to help out so many times, but some people are a waste of time and some people really want to inflict hurt and ridicule. This sucks for people who really want to use this board for what it's for and stop people with some real knoledge from helping.
I know I have more to say and I will in the future providing we can all get along, I just hope we can!!
Good luck to all here,
Dejan "Dan" Cokic
Pruven Performance
Just wanted to clear a few things up and also ask a few questions of my own. This is actually my first post here and the reason behind that is because I don't want to be involved in all this soap opera drama, but somehow we always seemed to get dragged in. I decided to post in on this thread because it just gets to a point to where enough is enough and have decided to get involved in this forum. Anyone, in our situation, would actually get this point after all the B.S. that gets thrown around here. I read most of this stuff and just laugh, well enough laughing because I take plenty of pride in our tuning, ability, know-how, experience, and craftsmenship. Like I said before enough is enough.
First I'd like to talk about our dyno that everyone says has inflated numbers. Where is this coming from? Because one guy went to another dyno and got 15 less horse power? That is ridiculous!! The only way for someone to know for sure how a dyno reads from another dyno is: Dyno at shop A, put car on trailer, goto to shop B on same day with same conditons and re-dyno. Otherwise all testing is worthless, especially with piggy-back systems that allow the ecu to relearn. Most of you are not in the business and have 0 experience with any of the things that are disscussed in here and have no idea what can be serouis variables. Here are some examples for the not so knowledgable.
1. Tire pressure: a vehicle with less tire pressure creates more drag and sucks up power. We have tested this in years past and have differences of 10 h.p. depending on tire pressure.
2. Humidity and temp: This is obvious as vehicles tested in 70 degree weather with no humidity make more power that cars in 90 degree weather with humidity. This can be as much as 50 H.P. depending on motor type, intercooler type, etc... Generally a 4 cyl turbocharged motor will lose a horsepower per degree of temp. increased.
3. Drag on rollers: I don't care what type of chasis dyno you have, they all have bearings. If the bearings are not properly lubricated it will cause more drag, this a lower number. We happen to do monthly maintenece on ours, so we know our brakes are not getting hung up, our bearings are good, etc.. We have tested this theory in years past by touching one roller slightly with our shoe during a run and have lost as much as 9 h.p. We also have had our brakes not function properly about 3 years ago and had cars dynoing at 50 h.p. less that what they should have.
I could go on, but I don't want to waste people's time. But I would like to tell a quick story about a guy in my area who bought a dyno before we got ours and eneded up having to sell it beacuse his read very low and everyone knew it, even I knew it and no one would use it. I know this for sure because I put down 350 h.p. 8 years ago on a 1 g eclipse that was full weight and went to the track the next day with identical conditions and went 11.2 @122. There was obviosly a problem with his dyno.
Bottom line is most dynos read the same. And as far as proving it, I will dyno anyones car for free that dynos their car anywhere else on the same day and is off by more that 10 h.p. I don't care what dyno you dyno at. I have done comparisons of Mustang dynos, Clayton dynos, Dynojet dynos, Dyna-Pac dynos. etc.. All have been with in 5- 10 h.p. at most. Some have been with in 0 h.p. Please don't forget we have had a dyno for over 5 years. More than most in this type of business.
On another note, I just want to say how it is really difficult to run a business under the microscope of the internet. When a customer is being irrational about a situation you pretty much have to kiss their *** so the customer doesn't go on-line and bash you. It's ridiculous and gives an upper hand to some real idiots and people who are ruthless and full of themselves and everyone in this profession has to deal with it. Whether it be Bushur, Vishnu, Turbotrix, AMS, Dynoflash, or anyone else in the business, We all have to deal with it!! Is there a website dedicated to Plumbers and what a good or bad job they do? Is there a website dedicated to Well diggers or Electricians and how they do their job? How about Contractors, Computer programmers, or Baggers at the grocery store? Are their forums about them? What I'm getting at is the internet can make or break you by how well you play the internet game. Some shops play it better than others. Some shops spend all their time online and try to steal customers, while some shops just do a damn good job. A few things people fail to realize is that, just because 1 idiot comes online and posts a negative comment people assume its true for some reason, and that goes for positive posts also. Like i said, It's all how you play this internet game.I could go on with this too, but I don't want to bore, just inform you.
Something people fail to realize about the professional shops is, this is what we do for a living. This is how we put food on our table. When there is a negative post from one customer who didn't have the best experience for what ever reason, they try to wreck that shop. WHY! Have you ever made a mistake at work? Did your boss or customer post it on line and trash you? Are you perfect? Just because this is your hobby and things didn't workout exactly as you planned it, you want to ruin another person's livelyhood? I just don't get most of the people on this board, that's why I don't normally post here. I thought this board was to help each other out, give ideas, promote, etc.. Most are here to attack and destroy! It's reallly too bad it has to be this way. I have wanted to help out so many times, but some people are a waste of time and some people really want to inflict hurt and ridicule. This sucks for people who really want to use this board for what it's for and stop people with some real knoledge from helping.
I know I have more to say and I will in the future providing we can all get along, I just hope we can!!
Good luck to all here,
Dejan "Dan" Cokic
Pruven Performance
Jul 23, 2004, 08:16 PM
#141
Evolving Member
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Milford, CT
Posts: 217
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AZ3Ar,
If you read my post correctly, you would see that I am saying that MOST dynos read about the same, no matter what brand. A perfect example of that would be dynoing my 1st generation eclipse at 531 H.P. at the wheels at Pruven, then going to California on HKS's dyno and dyno at 528 at the wheels, then back to Pruven for a 530h.p. at the wheels, and having the gentleman who bought my car go to turbotrix and dyno 537 at the wheels. All with in 10 h.p.
Dan @ Pruven Performance
If you read my post correctly, you would see that I am saying that MOST dynos read about the same, no matter what brand. A perfect example of that would be dynoing my 1st generation eclipse at 531 H.P. at the wheels at Pruven, then going to California on HKS's dyno and dyno at 528 at the wheels, then back to Pruven for a 530h.p. at the wheels, and having the gentleman who bought my car go to turbotrix and dyno 537 at the wheels. All with in 10 h.p.
Dan @ Pruven Performance
Jul 23, 2004, 08:17 PM
#142
Really good post, Dan!
At the point when I said that Pruven's dyno reads slightly higher, I actually believe it is beneficial to Pruven. As Geo pointed out above, people care A LOT about what numbers they get, moreso than anything else. As I'm sure you know very well, but some of the people here reading might not- The main thing that will help a dynojet read close to the same all year around is SAE correction. Until I switched to AWD cars about 2 years ago, I always used (and operated) a friend's local 248C Dynojet since 1999. Back then, all my friends had 2wd cars. We had a ridiculous number of passes on all our cars, trying every combination there was to try. I finished modifying that car (Honda) in Feb 2001. For the heck of it, I went back in the summer, where the temperature had increased by over 50 degrees, and the humidity was up almost 70%! As you can no doubt imagine, the uncorrected numbers were dramatically different, but the corrected numbers were within 2whp! The shape of the torque curves were still identical.
Of course, using SAE corrected dynojet numbers for unilateral comparison across the country backfires horribly with forced induction cars are run on a dyno when the shop is at very high altitudes, as they're not as effected by the thin air.
While we're talking about different dyno types reading wildly different numbers, you don't have to look very far for proof of this. From what I've seen, TurboXS has the highest reading dynapack in the country, where a stock Evo puts down a whooping 246whp!!
http://www.turboxs.com/
http://www.turboxs.com/_images/UTEC/...evoviiic16.jpg
I dynoed my car at Alamo in Arlington (Dallas), TX, where it put down 301whp. Stock Evos on that same day were putting down 215-220whp.
The Dyno Dynamics and Mustang Dyno guys have great machines for tuning, but they're certainly not as ego friendly if you're looking to brag about your numbers on the internet!
http://www.dyno4mance.com
My car was run at Dyno4mance in Georgia with the exact same setup it had at Alamo and only put down 263whp. Although I got a lower peak number, the run to run variances on that dyno were almost zero and tuning went much faster. For reference, a stock Evo at Dyno4mance puts down 185-190whp. My friend's vf30 WRX put down 242whp on this same dyno, a week after going to the dragstrip and running a 12.70@108mph.
What I'm saying in all this is that Geo's post above is the most correct. If you pick one dyno or one tuner and stick with it, you can compare it. But a car that makes 185whp at Dyno4mance will make 246whp at TurboXS. At the point when you drive somewhere else, massive speculation begins.
But to address the main point of this conflict, the disservice in this thread really happened to Turbotrix when it was reported that their tune made an Evo with SAFC & turbo-back exhaust-like 309whp. Maybe you can shed some light on the subject for us? If dynojets really are that close, how could the car lose almost 40WHP in 48 hours? Would the company that has the fastest Evo 8 in the USA only make 309whp from a BR500? If you could take a couple of moments to give your professional opinion on some of these questions, I'm sure a lot of the disagreements would be resolved. Thanks for your time.
Seth
At the point when I said that Pruven's dyno reads slightly higher, I actually believe it is beneficial to Pruven. As Geo pointed out above, people care A LOT about what numbers they get, moreso than anything else. As I'm sure you know very well, but some of the people here reading might not- The main thing that will help a dynojet read close to the same all year around is SAE correction. Until I switched to AWD cars about 2 years ago, I always used (and operated) a friend's local 248C Dynojet since 1999. Back then, all my friends had 2wd cars. We had a ridiculous number of passes on all our cars, trying every combination there was to try. I finished modifying that car (Honda) in Feb 2001. For the heck of it, I went back in the summer, where the temperature had increased by over 50 degrees, and the humidity was up almost 70%! As you can no doubt imagine, the uncorrected numbers were dramatically different, but the corrected numbers were within 2whp! The shape of the torque curves were still identical.
Of course, using SAE corrected dynojet numbers for unilateral comparison across the country backfires horribly with forced induction cars are run on a dyno when the shop is at very high altitudes, as they're not as effected by the thin air.
While we're talking about different dyno types reading wildly different numbers, you don't have to look very far for proof of this. From what I've seen, TurboXS has the highest reading dynapack in the country, where a stock Evo puts down a whooping 246whp!!
http://www.turboxs.com/
http://www.turboxs.com/_images/UTEC/...evoviiic16.jpg
I dynoed my car at Alamo in Arlington (Dallas), TX, where it put down 301whp. Stock Evos on that same day were putting down 215-220whp.
The Dyno Dynamics and Mustang Dyno guys have great machines for tuning, but they're certainly not as ego friendly if you're looking to brag about your numbers on the internet!
http://www.dyno4mance.com
My car was run at Dyno4mance in Georgia with the exact same setup it had at Alamo and only put down 263whp. Although I got a lower peak number, the run to run variances on that dyno were almost zero and tuning went much faster. For reference, a stock Evo at Dyno4mance puts down 185-190whp. My friend's vf30 WRX put down 242whp on this same dyno, a week after going to the dragstrip and running a 12.70@108mph.
What I'm saying in all this is that Geo's post above is the most correct. If you pick one dyno or one tuner and stick with it, you can compare it. But a car that makes 185whp at Dyno4mance will make 246whp at TurboXS. At the point when you drive somewhere else, massive speculation begins.
But to address the main point of this conflict, the disservice in this thread really happened to Turbotrix when it was reported that their tune made an Evo with SAFC & turbo-back exhaust-like 309whp. Maybe you can shed some light on the subject for us? If dynojets really are that close, how could the car lose almost 40WHP in 48 hours? Would the company that has the fastest Evo 8 in the USA only make 309whp from a BR500? If you could take a couple of moments to give your professional opinion on some of these questions, I'm sure a lot of the disagreements would be resolved. Thanks for your time.
Seth
Jul 23, 2004, 08:38 PM
#144
Originally Posted by Illrunya
IB4TL!..lol
On a more serious note, these are all interesting findings, and Im glad that we have forums, and people that take the time out to post their results. Sure there is alot BS, arguing, etc, but heck...@ least its entertaining!
Ken
On a more serious note, these are all interesting findings, and Im glad that we have forums, and people that take the time out to post their results. Sure there is alot BS, arguing, etc, but heck...@ least its entertaining!
Ken
Hey man, those are great 1/4 mile #'s! Was that done on only the mods listed in your signature, was there aecu tune involved, may be off topic, but those mods ands that 1/4 time caught my eye! Nice...
Jul 23, 2004, 08:39 PM
#145
Evolved Member
iTrader: (15)
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: "Tri-Cities" WA
Posts: 1,493
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Pruven
Hi All,
Just wanted to clear a few things up and also ask a few questions of my own. This is actually my first post here and the reason behind that is because I don't want to be involved in all this soap opera drama, but somehow we always seemed to get dragged in. I decided to post in on this thread because it just gets to a point to where enough is enough and have decided to get involved in this forum. Anyone, in our situation, would actually get this point after all the B.S. that gets thrown around here. I read most of this stuff and just laugh, well enough laughing because I take plenty of pride in our tuning, ability, know-how, experience, and craftsmenship. Like I said before enough is enough.
First I'd like to talk about our dyno that everyone says has inflated numbers. Where is this coming from? Because one guy went to another dyno and got 15 less horse power? That is ridiculous!! The only way for someone to know for sure how a dyno reads from another dyno is: Dyno at shop A, put car on trailer, goto to shop B on same day with same conditons and re-dyno. Otherwise all testing is worthless, especially with piggy-back systems that allow the ecu to relearn. Most of you are not in the business and have 0 experience with any of the things that are disscussed in here and have no idea what can be serouis variables. Here are some examples for the not so knowledgable.
1. Tire pressure: a vehicle with less tire pressure creates more drag and sucks up power. We have tested this in years past and have differences of 10 h.p. depending on tire pressure.
2. Humidity and temp: This is obvious as vehicles tested in 70 degree weather with no humidity make more power that cars in 90 degree weather with humidity. This can be as much as 50 H.P. depending on motor type, intercooler type, etc... Generally a 4 cyl turbocharged motor will lose a horsepower per degree of temp. increased.
3. Drag on rollers: I don't care what type of chasis dyno you have, they all have bearings. If the bearings are not properly lubricated it will cause more drag, this a lower number. We happen to do monthly maintenece on ours, so we know our brakes are not getting hung up, our bearings are good, etc.. We have tested this theory in years past by touching one roller slightly with our shoe during a run and have lost as much as 9 h.p. We also have had our brakes not function properly about 3 years ago and had cars dynoing at 50 h.p. less that what they should have.
I could go on, but I don't want to waste people's time. But I would like to tell a quick story about a guy in my area who bought a dyno before we got ours and eneded up having to sell it beacuse his read very low and everyone knew it, even I knew it and no one would use it. I know this for sure because I put down 350 h.p. 8 years ago on a 1 g eclipse that was full weight and went to the track the next day with identical conditions and went 11.2 @122. There was obviosly a problem with his dyno.
Bottom line is most dynos read the same. And as far as proving it, I will dyno anyones car for free that dynos their car anywhere else on the same day and is off by more that 10 h.p. I don't care what dyno you dyno at. I have done comparisons of Mustang dynos, Clayton dynos, Dynojet dynos, Dyna-Pac dynos. etc.. All have been with in 5- 10 h.p. at most. Some have been with in 0 h.p. Please don't forget we have had a dyno for over 5 years. More than most in this type of business.
On another note, I just want to say how it is really difficult to run a business under the microscope of the internet. When a customer is being irrational about a situation you pretty much have to kiss their *** so the customer doesn't go on-line and bash you. It's ridiculous and gives an upper hand to some real idiots and people who are ruthless and full of themselves and everyone in this profession has to deal with it. Whether it be Bushur, Vishnu, Turbotrix, AMS, Dynoflash, or anyone else in the business, We all have to deal with it!! Is there a website dedicated to Plumbers and what a good or bad job they do? Is there a website dedicated to Well diggers or Electricians and how they do their job? How about Contractors, Computer programmers, or Baggers at the grocery store? Are their forums about them? What I'm getting at is the internet can make or break you by how well you play the internet game. Some shops play it better than others. Some shops spend all their time online and try to steal customers, while some shops just do a damn good job. A few things people fail to realize is that, just because 1 idiot comes online and posts a negative comment people assume its true for some reason, and that goes for positive posts also. Like i said, It's all how you play this internet game.I could go on with this too, but I don't want to bore, just inform you.
Something people fail to realize about the professional shops is, this is what we do for a living. This is how we put food on our table. When there is a negative post from one customer who didn't have the best experience for what ever reason, they try to wreck that shop. WHY! Have you ever made a mistake at work? Did your boss or customer post it on line and trash you? Are you perfect? Just because this is your hobby and things didn't workout exactly as you planned it, you want to ruin another person's livelyhood? I just don't get most of the people on this board, that's why I don't normally post here. I thought this board was to help each other out, give ideas, promote, etc.. Most are here to attack and destroy! It's reallly too bad it has to be this way. I have wanted to help out so many times, but some people are a waste of time and some people really want to inflict hurt and ridicule. This sucks for people who really want to use this board for what it's for and stop people with some real knoledge from helping.
I know I have more to say and I will in the future providing we can all get along, I just hope we can!!
Good luck to all here,
Dejan "Dan" Cokic
Pruven Performance
Just wanted to clear a few things up and also ask a few questions of my own. This is actually my first post here and the reason behind that is because I don't want to be involved in all this soap opera drama, but somehow we always seemed to get dragged in. I decided to post in on this thread because it just gets to a point to where enough is enough and have decided to get involved in this forum. Anyone, in our situation, would actually get this point after all the B.S. that gets thrown around here. I read most of this stuff and just laugh, well enough laughing because I take plenty of pride in our tuning, ability, know-how, experience, and craftsmenship. Like I said before enough is enough.
First I'd like to talk about our dyno that everyone says has inflated numbers. Where is this coming from? Because one guy went to another dyno and got 15 less horse power? That is ridiculous!! The only way for someone to know for sure how a dyno reads from another dyno is: Dyno at shop A, put car on trailer, goto to shop B on same day with same conditons and re-dyno. Otherwise all testing is worthless, especially with piggy-back systems that allow the ecu to relearn. Most of you are not in the business and have 0 experience with any of the things that are disscussed in here and have no idea what can be serouis variables. Here are some examples for the not so knowledgable.
1. Tire pressure: a vehicle with less tire pressure creates more drag and sucks up power. We have tested this in years past and have differences of 10 h.p. depending on tire pressure.
2. Humidity and temp: This is obvious as vehicles tested in 70 degree weather with no humidity make more power that cars in 90 degree weather with humidity. This can be as much as 50 H.P. depending on motor type, intercooler type, etc... Generally a 4 cyl turbocharged motor will lose a horsepower per degree of temp. increased.
3. Drag on rollers: I don't care what type of chasis dyno you have, they all have bearings. If the bearings are not properly lubricated it will cause more drag, this a lower number. We happen to do monthly maintenece on ours, so we know our brakes are not getting hung up, our bearings are good, etc.. We have tested this theory in years past by touching one roller slightly with our shoe during a run and have lost as much as 9 h.p. We also have had our brakes not function properly about 3 years ago and had cars dynoing at 50 h.p. less that what they should have.
I could go on, but I don't want to waste people's time. But I would like to tell a quick story about a guy in my area who bought a dyno before we got ours and eneded up having to sell it beacuse his read very low and everyone knew it, even I knew it and no one would use it. I know this for sure because I put down 350 h.p. 8 years ago on a 1 g eclipse that was full weight and went to the track the next day with identical conditions and went 11.2 @122. There was obviosly a problem with his dyno.
Bottom line is most dynos read the same. And as far as proving it, I will dyno anyones car for free that dynos their car anywhere else on the same day and is off by more that 10 h.p. I don't care what dyno you dyno at. I have done comparisons of Mustang dynos, Clayton dynos, Dynojet dynos, Dyna-Pac dynos. etc.. All have been with in 5- 10 h.p. at most. Some have been with in 0 h.p. Please don't forget we have had a dyno for over 5 years. More than most in this type of business.
On another note, I just want to say how it is really difficult to run a business under the microscope of the internet. When a customer is being irrational about a situation you pretty much have to kiss their *** so the customer doesn't go on-line and bash you. It's ridiculous and gives an upper hand to some real idiots and people who are ruthless and full of themselves and everyone in this profession has to deal with it. Whether it be Bushur, Vishnu, Turbotrix, AMS, Dynoflash, or anyone else in the business, We all have to deal with it!! Is there a website dedicated to Plumbers and what a good or bad job they do? Is there a website dedicated to Well diggers or Electricians and how they do their job? How about Contractors, Computer programmers, or Baggers at the grocery store? Are their forums about them? What I'm getting at is the internet can make or break you by how well you play the internet game. Some shops play it better than others. Some shops spend all their time online and try to steal customers, while some shops just do a damn good job. A few things people fail to realize is that, just because 1 idiot comes online and posts a negative comment people assume its true for some reason, and that goes for positive posts also. Like i said, It's all how you play this internet game.I could go on with this too, but I don't want to bore, just inform you.
Something people fail to realize about the professional shops is, this is what we do for a living. This is how we put food on our table. When there is a negative post from one customer who didn't have the best experience for what ever reason, they try to wreck that shop. WHY! Have you ever made a mistake at work? Did your boss or customer post it on line and trash you? Are you perfect? Just because this is your hobby and things didn't workout exactly as you planned it, you want to ruin another person's livelyhood? I just don't get most of the people on this board, that's why I don't normally post here. I thought this board was to help each other out, give ideas, promote, etc.. Most are here to attack and destroy! It's reallly too bad it has to be this way. I have wanted to help out so many times, but some people are a waste of time and some people really want to inflict hurt and ridicule. This sucks for people who really want to use this board for what it's for and stop people with some real knoledge from helping.
I know I have more to say and I will in the future providing we can all get along, I just hope we can!!
Good luck to all here,
Dejan "Dan" Cokic
Pruven Performance
Jul 23, 2004, 08:47 PM
#146
Evolving Member
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Milford, CT
Posts: 217
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi,
Well again I want to mention all the variables I spoke of before. All of them being factors that could be involved here, especially the piggyback type set-ups that do relearning. Also different days, temp, humidity, tire pressure, etc.. are all factors. The relearning is really not too much of a factor since it is a reflashed ECU.
One thing I will say is sometimes a tuner will change the tune to a safer tune before the customer leaves the shop so there is no problems off the dyno. A tuner who is confident of his tune, will leave the tune alone or the tuner will go on an actual test drive and verify the tune is good or needs an adjustment and makes one. Also, most of the time you get what you pay for.
Something tuners or customers fail to mention is if the number corrected or not and what type of correction it has. On this paticular Evo, I had to leave around 3:00 p.m. so I was not there for the tune. I will say it was very humid (raining) and that has a dramatic affect on output (10-15 h.p.). Also, who knows what boost the customer left shop A with and what boost level he came to shop B with. 40 H.P. is not too hard too lose or gain depending on the circumstances, so It's hard to say what happened.
I can say we have had cars come back months later and have been within a few horsepower of previos dyno runs and had some come back months later within 20 h.p. There are so many factors involed, that you can't compare.
One thing I'd like to mention about the Dynojets is the SAE correction factor is pretty consistent and can help better place comparisons ( this is all depending if the customers and tuners diclose this info. Most of the time the customer has no idea what he or she is looking at). Another thing I'd like to mention is that the load bearing dynos vary alot vs. the inertia dynos. This is because you can enter variables in the load bearing dynos such as weight of vehicle, gear ratio, etc.. On an inertia dyno you cannot. Basicly you can manipulate the number on the load bearing dynos and on the inertia dynos you cannot (unless you are the software writer), this is because the roller wieght never changes. It's a very good comparison for car to car and even the same car because it take X amount of time to move a given weight.....that's the bottom line and that's Horsepower!
Dan @ Pruven Performance
Well again I want to mention all the variables I spoke of before. All of them being factors that could be involved here, especially the piggyback type set-ups that do relearning. Also different days, temp, humidity, tire pressure, etc.. are all factors. The relearning is really not too much of a factor since it is a reflashed ECU.
One thing I will say is sometimes a tuner will change the tune to a safer tune before the customer leaves the shop so there is no problems off the dyno. A tuner who is confident of his tune, will leave the tune alone or the tuner will go on an actual test drive and verify the tune is good or needs an adjustment and makes one. Also, most of the time you get what you pay for.
Something tuners or customers fail to mention is if the number corrected or not and what type of correction it has. On this paticular Evo, I had to leave around 3:00 p.m. so I was not there for the tune. I will say it was very humid (raining) and that has a dramatic affect on output (10-15 h.p.). Also, who knows what boost the customer left shop A with and what boost level he came to shop B with. 40 H.P. is not too hard too lose or gain depending on the circumstances, so It's hard to say what happened.
I can say we have had cars come back months later and have been within a few horsepower of previos dyno runs and had some come back months later within 20 h.p. There are so many factors involed, that you can't compare.
One thing I'd like to mention about the Dynojets is the SAE correction factor is pretty consistent and can help better place comparisons ( this is all depending if the customers and tuners diclose this info. Most of the time the customer has no idea what he or she is looking at). Another thing I'd like to mention is that the load bearing dynos vary alot vs. the inertia dynos. This is because you can enter variables in the load bearing dynos such as weight of vehicle, gear ratio, etc.. On an inertia dyno you cannot. Basicly you can manipulate the number on the load bearing dynos and on the inertia dynos you cannot (unless you are the software writer), this is because the roller wieght never changes. It's a very good comparison for car to car and even the same car because it take X amount of time to move a given weight.....that's the bottom line and that's Horsepower!
Dan @ Pruven Performance
Jul 23, 2004, 08:51 PM
#147
Originally Posted by v8killer
Hey man, those are great 1/4 mile #'s! Was that done on only the mods listed in your signature, was there aecu tune involved, may be off topic, but those mods ands that 1/4 time caught my eye! Nice...
Jul 23, 2004, 09:26 PM
#148
Evolving Member
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: milfort ct
Posts: 116
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Noize
Really good post, Dan!
At the point when I said that Pruven's dyno reads slightly higher, I actually believe it is beneficial to Pruven. As Geo pointed out above, people care A LOT about what numbers they get, moreso than anything else. As I'm sure you know very well, but some of the people here reading might not- The main thing that will help a dynojet read close to the same all year around is SAE correction. Until I switched to AWD cars about 2 years ago, I always used (and operated) a friend's local 248C Dynojet since 1999. Back then, all my friends had 2wd cars. We had a ridiculous number of passes on all our cars, trying every combination there was to try. I finished modifying that car (Honda) in Feb 2001. For the heck of it, I went back in the summer, where the temperature had increased by over 50 degrees, and the humidity was up almost 70%! As you can no doubt imagine, the uncorrected numbers were dramatically different, but the corrected numbers were within 2whp! The shape of the torque curves were still identical.
Of course, using SAE corrected dynojet numbers for unilateral comparison across the country backfires horribly with forced induction cars are run on a dyno when the shop is at very high altitudes, as they're not as effected by the thin air.
While we're talking about different dyno types reading wildly different numbers, you don't have to look very far for proof of this. From what I've seen, TurboXS has the highest reading dynapack in the country, where a stock Evo puts down a whooping 246whp!!
http://www.turboxs.com/
http://www.turboxs.com/_images/UTEC/...evoviiic16.jpg
I dynoed my car at Alamo in Arlington (Dallas), TX, where it put down 301whp. Stock Evos on that same day were putting down 215-220whp.
The Dyno Dynamics and Mustang Dyno guys have great machines for tuning, but they're certainly not as ego friendly if you're looking to brag about your numbers on the internet!
http://www.dyno4mance.com
My car was run at Dyno4mance in Georgia with the exact same setup it had at Alamo and only put down 263whp. Although I got a lower peak number, the run to run variances on that dyno were almost zero and tuning went much faster. For reference, a stock Evo at Dyno4mance puts down 185-190whp. My friend's vf30 WRX put down 242whp on this same dyno, a week after going to the dragstrip and running a 12.70@108mph.
What I'm saying in all this is that Geo's post above is the most correct. If you pick one dyno or one tuner and stick with it, you can compare it. But a car that makes 185whp at Dyno4mance will make 246whp at TurboXS. At the point when you drive somewhere else, massive speculation begins.
But to address the main point of this conflict, the disservice in this thread really happened to Turbotrix when it was reported that their tune made an Evo with SAFC & turbo-back exhaust-like 309whp. Maybe you can shed some light on the subject for us? If dynojets really are that close, how could the car lose almost 40WHP in 48 hours? Would the company that has the fastest Evo 8 in the USA only make 309whp from a BR500? If you could take a couple of moments to give your professional opinion on some of these questions, I'm sure a lot of the disagreements would be resolved. Thanks for your time.
Seth
At the point when I said that Pruven's dyno reads slightly higher, I actually believe it is beneficial to Pruven. As Geo pointed out above, people care A LOT about what numbers they get, moreso than anything else. As I'm sure you know very well, but some of the people here reading might not- The main thing that will help a dynojet read close to the same all year around is SAE correction. Until I switched to AWD cars about 2 years ago, I always used (and operated) a friend's local 248C Dynojet since 1999. Back then, all my friends had 2wd cars. We had a ridiculous number of passes on all our cars, trying every combination there was to try. I finished modifying that car (Honda) in Feb 2001. For the heck of it, I went back in the summer, where the temperature had increased by over 50 degrees, and the humidity was up almost 70%! As you can no doubt imagine, the uncorrected numbers were dramatically different, but the corrected numbers were within 2whp! The shape of the torque curves were still identical.
Of course, using SAE corrected dynojet numbers for unilateral comparison across the country backfires horribly with forced induction cars are run on a dyno when the shop is at very high altitudes, as they're not as effected by the thin air.
While we're talking about different dyno types reading wildly different numbers, you don't have to look very far for proof of this. From what I've seen, TurboXS has the highest reading dynapack in the country, where a stock Evo puts down a whooping 246whp!!
http://www.turboxs.com/
http://www.turboxs.com/_images/UTEC/...evoviiic16.jpg
I dynoed my car at Alamo in Arlington (Dallas), TX, where it put down 301whp. Stock Evos on that same day were putting down 215-220whp.
The Dyno Dynamics and Mustang Dyno guys have great machines for tuning, but they're certainly not as ego friendly if you're looking to brag about your numbers on the internet!
http://www.dyno4mance.com
My car was run at Dyno4mance in Georgia with the exact same setup it had at Alamo and only put down 263whp. Although I got a lower peak number, the run to run variances on that dyno were almost zero and tuning went much faster. For reference, a stock Evo at Dyno4mance puts down 185-190whp. My friend's vf30 WRX put down 242whp on this same dyno, a week after going to the dragstrip and running a 12.70@108mph.
What I'm saying in all this is that Geo's post above is the most correct. If you pick one dyno or one tuner and stick with it, you can compare it. But a car that makes 185whp at Dyno4mance will make 246whp at TurboXS. At the point when you drive somewhere else, massive speculation begins.
But to address the main point of this conflict, the disservice in this thread really happened to Turbotrix when it was reported that their tune made an Evo with SAFC & turbo-back exhaust-like 309whp. Maybe you can shed some light on the subject for us? If dynojets really are that close, how could the car lose almost 40WHP in 48 hours? Would the company that has the fastest Evo 8 in the USA only make 309whp from a BR500? If you could take a couple of moments to give your professional opinion on some of these questions, I'm sure a lot of the disagreements would be resolved. Thanks for your time.
Seth
Ok let's address the main point i know for a fact that evo8power's car came in and produced a less than acceptable number. Oh well not my deal could be his Short term fuel trim/Long term fuel trim, could be a a tune that was too aggresive causing excesive knock resulting in severe timing retard. Stand alone would absolutely solve that issue(F-Con pro or EMS). Unfortunatly there are so called tuners out there tunning these stand alone systems and basically destroying motors. So if you jump from tuner to tuner you are bound to find one of these knob turners who just go up and down with base maps made for some guys evo in Cali. with an intake, exhaust and tinted windows. And then one of these so called tuners will blame it on the oil change you got 6 months ago combined with the changing of the tides causing your rod to spin a bearing, when in reality it was the detonation pounding on the bearing= spun bearing. And as far as Turbotrix,the company that has the fastest Evo 8 in the USA making 309whp, like Dan said in this buisness if you have a bad day there is always ten guys on the forum looking to hang you for a mistake.
i think i'm losing my mind
i just wan't to work on cars
ken@pruven
Jul 23, 2004, 10:01 PM
#149
Originally Posted by pruven
I thought this board was to help each other out, give ideas, promote, etc.. Most are here to attack and destroy! It's reallly too bad it has to be this way. I have wanted to help out so many times, but some people are a waste of time and some people really want to inflict hurt and ridicule. This sucks for people who really want to use this board for what it's for and stop people with some real knoledge from helping.
Saying "Al is liar", giving out "what ifs" and so on... what does that do? Discussing facts (and only the facts) surounding the situation would prove more useful. When that happens, then we'll see some useful info. If you agree with me, then don't say it... DO IT!
Mark
Jul 23, 2004, 10:20 PM
#150
Evolving Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: ct
Posts: 243
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
it's about time two of the most knowledgeable people i know [also very good friends] from one of the best shops in the country post some facts.the opions posted by dan and ken relate to a few different topics but all needed to be addressed.if people put as much time into researching parts and power numbers instead of trying to compare dyno numbers from dyno to dyno you might actually make some power and have a fun car. oh theres a thought stop talking s#$! and make it happen.noize you are a joke