Lost power! Bought 4 NGK BPR 7ES - Help!!!!!
Aug 11, 2004, 01:56 PM
#1
Lost power! Bought 4 NGK BPR 7ES - Help!!!!!
I just bought 4 NGK BPR 7ES spark plugs. They are supposed to be cooler than stock. What does this mean, cooler? Also should I leave the gap alone, or change it. I have heard some folks are having a hard time getting the plug wires off and it's a weird socket size to boot.
My mods are listed below, and the reason I am changing the plugs is because my car seems like it has lost power recently. I got a Dynoflash and the car was running awesome for about 3 weeks of daily driving. I think the lack of HP started when I ran a couple of tanks of Gas with 0-60 Octane Booster (orange bottle). I added two bottles to each tank. Says each bottle was supposed to raise the octane points by one, so by adding two bottles to my 93 octane would get to 95 octane. Since doing this may car is running ok, but I feel like have lost like 50 HP!
I ordered some other stuff from lancershop so I went ahead and got new plugs since they were only 13 bucks for 4 of them. Anyone have any suggestions? I haven't taken off the old plugs to see if they are fouled or anything.
My mods are listed below, and the reason I am changing the plugs is because my car seems like it has lost power recently. I got a Dynoflash and the car was running awesome for about 3 weeks of daily driving. I think the lack of HP started when I ran a couple of tanks of Gas with 0-60 Octane Booster (orange bottle). I added two bottles to each tank. Says each bottle was supposed to raise the octane points by one, so by adding two bottles to my 93 octane would get to 95 octane. Since doing this may car is running ok, but I feel like have lost like 50 HP!
I ordered some other stuff from lancershop so I went ahead and got new plugs since they were only 13 bucks for 4 of them. Anyone have any suggestions? I haven't taken off the old plugs to see if they are fouled or anything.
Aug 11, 2004, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by v8killer
I ordered some other stuff from lancershop so I went ahead and got new plugs since they were only 13 bucks for 4 of them. Anyone have any suggestions? I haven't taken off the old plugs to see if they are fouled or anything.
Also do you have a datalogger to see what your car is doing?
Aug 11, 2004, 02:11 PM
#5
Please don't mistake octane "points" for whole octane rating numbers. If a product claims to increase your octane by "3 to 5 octane points" it means 0.3-0.5 octane...in otherwords the most you could expect would be to go from like 92 to 92.5 lol. Octane booster = joke. They also normally achieve the octane boost with MTBE which in your manual says in plain english doesn't do crap for performance.
You are better off mixing in a gallon of toluene for the same $$. A gallon of toluene will take your octane from 92 to about 93.6 and run you about $5/gal. 2 gallons will put you right around 95.1.
You are better off mixing in a gallon of toluene for the same $$. A gallon of toluene will take your octane from 92 to about 93.6 and run you about $5/gal. 2 gallons will put you right around 95.1.
Aug 11, 2004, 02:11 PM
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It seems like the octane booster you've run has fouled your plugs. Anytime contaminants are attempted to be purged from your system (ie. fuel), if effective it has to go somewhere... usually in the oil.
Granted you probably need new plugs but with the mod list you've got... colder probably isn't for you.
Granted you probably need new plugs but with the mod list you've got... colder probably isn't for you.
Aug 11, 2004, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by 1of2toys
Granted you probably need new plugs but with the mod list you've got... colder probably isn't for you.
V8Killer,
Read this for an explanation on why you should run cooler plugs
http://www.extremeturbo.com/plugs.ph...b202b46f458da5
Last edited by VTECH8TR; Aug 11, 2004 at 02:18 PM.
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Aug 11, 2004, 02:22 PM
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10 points= 1 pump octane number
BPR7ES's need to be regapped, and since they are a copper plug need to be changed out monthly for best performance... reason being its a copper plug and the amount of times the ECU fires the plug will destore copper plugs fast, which is why cars switched to platinum plugs back in the 80's when on board computers became standard.
The stock MMC plug is already a colder issued plug... It will be good for up to about 20 odd psi. The only reason to drop 2 ranges hence 8's would be if he is running NOS or boosting over 25+ psi (in my oppinoin) Raising boost from up to 20 psi is fine.... You can tell when ur plug is too hot by the color it burns and it will begin to blister and in worst cases melt. Running too cold will load up and foul.
Therer should be no reason to run 8's on a stock turbo unless your adding a heavty shot of NOS to your already "high boost"
BPR7ES's need to be regapped, and since they are a copper plug need to be changed out monthly for best performance... reason being its a copper plug and the amount of times the ECU fires the plug will destore copper plugs fast, which is why cars switched to platinum plugs back in the 80's when on board computers became standard.
The stock MMC plug is already a colder issued plug... It will be good for up to about 20 odd psi. The only reason to drop 2 ranges hence 8's would be if he is running NOS or boosting over 25+ psi (in my oppinoin) Raising boost from up to 20 psi is fine.... You can tell when ur plug is too hot by the color it burns and it will begin to blister and in worst cases melt. Running too cold will load up and foul.
Therer should be no reason to run 8's on a stock turbo unless your adding a heavty shot of NOS to your already "high boost"
Aug 11, 2004, 02:22 PM
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V8Killer,
This is the explanation from the website
Enjoy,
Many times, we've talked to customers who have had "misses" or "sputtering" that they have attributed to many things, but the obvious: spark plugs and ignition wires. If you ever have misses or sputtering, usually at higher RPMs, your first target for a culprit will be wires and plugs, assuming nothing else serious is going on, like a lean condition. The NGK BPR-6ES and BPR-7ES plugs are by far the most common and by all means the cheapest at $1.99 each in most auto parts stores. So which ones should you use? In most respects, your car will let you know when you've made a mistake in heat range selection.
Heat range is the plug's ability to remove heat from the cylinders. Colder plugs (higher numbers, ie. 7 is colder than 6) mean the plugs will remove more heat from the cylinders. Immediately, those who know a vague amount about tuning might think that sticking the coldest plugs they can get their hands on will reduce cylinder temps the most, which will help avoid knock, and that they can run unlimited boost or a super-lean mixture. Those who don't know a thing about it, may actually switch to a colder plug as some kind of a "performance mod". This, however, is not true and if you go to a colder plug too soon, you could actually impair your performance. Let's take a look at heat ranges for a minute.
Off the bat, it is generally never a good idea to go with a hotter plug than stock so our discussion here will be with going to a colder plug.
As we have said, the higher the heat range number, the more it will cool the combustion chamber. How exactly does that work? As you might expect, heat is pulled from the combustion chamber through the plug, into the insulator where it is then transferred into the cooling passages. As you can see, a "7" plug has much less area exposed to the combustion heat and has much more of an insulator than a "5" does . Translation: it will conduct heat more quickly and have a cooler tip (excellent for avoiding pre-ignition). How much more heat will it remove? For every step colder, approximately 160°F-210°F of heat will be removed.
In addition, a "projected" tip plug will run approximately 50°F-70°F hotter than non-projected tip plugs. So going from a BPR-6ES to a BPR-7ES plug will remove 160-210°F, while going to a BR-7ES (note no "P") will remove 210-280°F.
The difficult part is determining which plug to use and when. According to NGK, a plug one step colder should be used per 75-100HP that you add to your engine. By "adding HP", what we are really targeting is the associated increase in cylinder pressures and their related temperatures...and that is the key to choosing the right plug.
Spark plugs need to operate in their "self-cleaning" heat range (500°-850°C) to function properly. Colder than 500°C and they will not be able to burn off carbon/fuel and will foul...hotter than 850°C and they will overheat. As you can see, that is a pretty wide gap to operate in and there is room to work within each heat range. All of our 400-500 wheel HP DSMs are running BPR-7ES or BR-7ES plugs, well above the "1 heat range per 100HP" rule. If you are using nitrous, that's another ball of wax entirely.
The BPR-6ES plugs have worked well on all DSMs we've seen in the 275-375 wheel HP range. At any point, you are welcome to try a 7, but you may end up with more sputtering and misses than you care to deal with. That is exactly what we meant when we said if you pick the wrong heat range, your car will let you know. That missing will probably be associated with the plug being too cold and not making its minimum operating temperature. If you try a 7 and simply cannot run them yet, don't forget that you may also go for a non-projected BP-6ES to help remove some heat, but without being so cold as a 7.
What gap? That will depend on your mod level, how much boost you run, and any ignition modifications you may have, but generally, .028" is pretty much a set it and forget it gap. That works well on just about any turbo and we've run that gap on big turbos up to 30psi without a hiccup.
WiresAnother major ignition issue is plug wires. As we mentioned, any sputtering or misses are the wrong plugs/gap or bad wires 99% of the time, assuming you are not experiencing any lean or overly rich issues. Testing for a bad wire is as simple as doing an Ohm reading from end to end with a mulitmeter. If you don't have a multimeter, a cheap replacement set of plug wires or borrowing a set from a fellow DSMer is a sure fire test. Each manufacturer's plug wires will have their own resistance rating for a "good" wire, so you will need to check with them specifically. Generally, if you do a test and receive 0 Ohms (no continuity or a "short") or a substantially higher resistance than the manufacturer lists, you have a bad wire. For quick reference, as Magnecors are extremely popular wires, they are listed as 2.2K Ohms per foot. Magnecor blames the design of the deep-well plug sockets for most of their plug wire failures, so if you do experience a problem with them, your chances of getting them repaired under warranty may be slim.
Out of our personal experiences with the Magnecors, we no longer sell them. Three sets in five months on Ross' car alone was entirely too much to bear for plug wires that are $140 a set. The MSD 8.5mm wires that we now sell are just 40-50 Ohms per foot, look very similar for those who are into that thing, and we've never had a set or a single wire come back "bad". We use MSD wires on all of our cars and have for more than two years. Enough said.
This is the explanation from the website
Enjoy,
Many times, we've talked to customers who have had "misses" or "sputtering" that they have attributed to many things, but the obvious: spark plugs and ignition wires. If you ever have misses or sputtering, usually at higher RPMs, your first target for a culprit will be wires and plugs, assuming nothing else serious is going on, like a lean condition. The NGK BPR-6ES and BPR-7ES plugs are by far the most common and by all means the cheapest at $1.99 each in most auto parts stores. So which ones should you use? In most respects, your car will let you know when you've made a mistake in heat range selection.
Heat range is the plug's ability to remove heat from the cylinders. Colder plugs (higher numbers, ie. 7 is colder than 6) mean the plugs will remove more heat from the cylinders. Immediately, those who know a vague amount about tuning might think that sticking the coldest plugs they can get their hands on will reduce cylinder temps the most, which will help avoid knock, and that they can run unlimited boost or a super-lean mixture. Those who don't know a thing about it, may actually switch to a colder plug as some kind of a "performance mod". This, however, is not true and if you go to a colder plug too soon, you could actually impair your performance. Let's take a look at heat ranges for a minute.
Off the bat, it is generally never a good idea to go with a hotter plug than stock so our discussion here will be with going to a colder plug.
As we have said, the higher the heat range number, the more it will cool the combustion chamber. How exactly does that work? As you might expect, heat is pulled from the combustion chamber through the plug, into the insulator where it is then transferred into the cooling passages. As you can see, a "7" plug has much less area exposed to the combustion heat and has much more of an insulator than a "5" does . Translation: it will conduct heat more quickly and have a cooler tip (excellent for avoiding pre-ignition). How much more heat will it remove? For every step colder, approximately 160°F-210°F of heat will be removed. In addition, a "projected" tip plug will run approximately 50°F-70°F hotter than non-projected tip plugs. So going from a BPR-6ES to a BPR-7ES plug will remove 160-210°F, while going to a BR-7ES (note no "P") will remove 210-280°F.
The difficult part is determining which plug to use and when. According to NGK, a plug one step colder should be used per 75-100HP that you add to your engine. By "adding HP", what we are really targeting is the associated increase in cylinder pressures and their related temperatures...and that is the key to choosing the right plug.
Spark plugs need to operate in their "self-cleaning" heat range (500°-850°C) to function properly. Colder than 500°C and they will not be able to burn off carbon/fuel and will foul...hotter than 850°C and they will overheat. As you can see, that is a pretty wide gap to operate in and there is room to work within each heat range. All of our 400-500 wheel HP DSMs are running BPR-7ES or BR-7ES plugs, well above the "1 heat range per 100HP" rule. If you are using nitrous, that's another ball of wax entirely.
The BPR-6ES plugs have worked well on all DSMs we've seen in the 275-375 wheel HP range. At any point, you are welcome to try a 7, but you may end up with more sputtering and misses than you care to deal with. That is exactly what we meant when we said if you pick the wrong heat range, your car will let you know. That missing will probably be associated with the plug being too cold and not making its minimum operating temperature. If you try a 7 and simply cannot run them yet, don't forget that you may also go for a non-projected BP-6ES to help remove some heat, but without being so cold as a 7.
What gap? That will depend on your mod level, how much boost you run, and any ignition modifications you may have, but generally, .028" is pretty much a set it and forget it gap. That works well on just about any turbo and we've run that gap on big turbos up to 30psi without a hiccup.
WiresAnother major ignition issue is plug wires. As we mentioned, any sputtering or misses are the wrong plugs/gap or bad wires 99% of the time, assuming you are not experiencing any lean or overly rich issues. Testing for a bad wire is as simple as doing an Ohm reading from end to end with a mulitmeter. If you don't have a multimeter, a cheap replacement set of plug wires or borrowing a set from a fellow DSMer is a sure fire test. Each manufacturer's plug wires will have their own resistance rating for a "good" wire, so you will need to check with them specifically. Generally, if you do a test and receive 0 Ohms (no continuity or a "short") or a substantially higher resistance than the manufacturer lists, you have a bad wire. For quick reference, as Magnecors are extremely popular wires, they are listed as 2.2K Ohms per foot. Magnecor blames the design of the deep-well plug sockets for most of their plug wire failures, so if you do experience a problem with them, your chances of getting them repaired under warranty may be slim.
Out of our personal experiences with the Magnecors, we no longer sell them. Three sets in five months on Ross' car alone was entirely too much to bear for plug wires that are $140 a set. The MSD 8.5mm wires that we now sell are just 40-50 Ohms per foot, look very similar for those who are into that thing, and we've never had a set or a single wire come back "bad". We use MSD wires on all of our cars and have for more than two years. Enough said.
Aug 11, 2004, 02:31 PM
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The article said:
"All of our 400-500 wheel HP DSMs are running BPR-7ES or BR-7ES plugs"
Anyone tried the BR-7ES, they are non projected and are in between the BPR-7ES and BPR-8ES plugs as far as heat extracted is concerned. Going to a BPR-8ES seems too cold for anything less then 400-600WHP according to the article, so why does he need a colder plug VTECH8TR ???
"All of our 400-500 wheel HP DSMs are running BPR-7ES or BR-7ES plugs"
Anyone tried the BR-7ES, they are non projected and are in between the BPR-7ES and BPR-8ES plugs as far as heat extracted is concerned. Going to a BPR-8ES seems too cold for anything less then 400-600WHP according to the article, so why does he need a colder plug VTECH8TR ???
Aug 11, 2004, 02:38 PM
#11
Thanks Guys, I can always count on my more Knowledgeable Evo brothers!
I am running 21.5 PSI with my hallman BTW.
The octane booster I used I know is crap, I was just messing around. Now I wish I hadn't. The bottle said they would raise a 16 gallon tank of gas 10 points or 1 Ocatane number. Won' use this crap again.
I have never installed or gapped a plug! I am not sure I know how to use a gapper, maybe some knucklehead from Discount Auto Parts can show me...
I am running 21.5 PSI with my hallman BTW.
The octane booster I used I know is crap, I was just messing around. Now I wish I hadn't. The bottle said they would raise a 16 gallon tank of gas 10 points or 1 Ocatane number. Won' use this crap again.
I have never installed or gapped a plug! I am not sure I know how to use a gapper, maybe some knucklehead from Discount Auto Parts can show me...
Aug 11, 2004, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Guack007
The article said:
"All of our 400-500 wheel HP DSMs are running BPR-7ES or BR-7ES plugs"
Anyone tried the BR-7ES, they are non projected and are in between the BPR-7ES and BPR-8ES plugs as far as heat extracted is concerned. Going to a BPR-8ES seems too cold for anything less then 400-600WHP according to the article, so why does he need a colder plug VTECH8TR ???
"All of our 400-500 wheel HP DSMs are running BPR-7ES or BR-7ES plugs"
Anyone tried the BR-7ES, they are non projected and are in between the BPR-7ES and BPR-8ES plugs as far as heat extracted is concerned. Going to a BPR-8ES seems too cold for anything less then 400-600WHP according to the article, so why does he need a colder plug VTECH8TR ???
.Also this is from the article i posted earlier.
The difficult part is determining which plug to use and when. According to NGK, a plug one step colder should be used per 75-100HP that you add to your engine. By "adding HP", what we are really targeting is the associated increase in cylinder pressures and their related temperatures...and that is the key to choosing the right plug.
Aug 11, 2004, 02:41 PM
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[QUOTE=VTECH8TR]umm, do you care to elaborate why colder plugs wont help him. Colder plugs are better when you raise your boost, and he is raising his boost with an MBC.
V8Killer,
Sure, although 1QWKEVO, one post below (that one^) summed it up.
With heat ranges more (in this case colder) isn't necessarily better. The car must perform the mundane as well... start, idle, cruise (you get the point). The plugs inability to burn off the contaminants due to it's colder operating range allow them to store (imbed on/into) on the plug. This will most likely bring him back to where he is now. This in addtion to the fact that they are copper (a more sensitive/tempermental alloy) it isn't a wise investment as they'll need changing often (go cheap while experimenting I suppose).
Aside from the fact that the plugs currently in the car (stock heat range) are probably not a good metering device (due to all the octane boost used). They "would've been" an excellent source to determine if a colder heat range was/is "necessary".
V8Killer,
Sure, although 1QWKEVO, one post below (that one^) summed it up.
With heat ranges more (in this case colder) isn't necessarily better. The car must perform the mundane as well... start, idle, cruise (you get the point). The plugs inability to burn off the contaminants due to it's colder operating range allow them to store (imbed on/into) on the plug. This will most likely bring him back to where he is now. This in addtion to the fact that they are copper (a more sensitive/tempermental alloy) it isn't a wise investment as they'll need changing often (go cheap while experimenting I suppose).
Aside from the fact that the plugs currently in the car (stock heat range) are probably not a good metering device (due to all the octane boost used). They "would've been" an excellent source to determine if a colder heat range was/is "necessary".
Aug 11, 2004, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by v8killer
I have never installed or gapped a plug! I am not sure I know how to use a gapper, maybe some knucklehead from Discount Auto Parts can show me...
I sent you a PM..
Aug 11, 2004, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by VTECH8TR
Did you see his mod list, He is NOT STOCK. That's why .
Also this is from the article i posted earlier.
.Also this is from the article i posted earlier.
Any one have any information regarding the BR-7ES non projected plugs???