WRC changes- good and bad
Oct 18, 2004, 10:05 AM
#61
Originally Posted by Cabo
What "wanna-be" snobs like you fail to realize (and I happen to find quite ironic and funny) is that there is such big money in NASCAR now, that it is loaded with "distinguishing" (read -- rich) people behind the scenes and in the stands. Been to a race lately? There are just as many BMW's and pimped-out Navigators in the parking lot as there are '89 Thunderbirds and chevy trucks. Sounds like you may be the one who is a bit behind the times.
While I do realize that I run the risk of stereotyping by trying to link social status to racing preference (as you have), I have to say that plenty of the the euro-jap car "experts" that used to sit around and watch F1 and WRC all day have switched over to NASCAR. I know quite a few...
NASCAR is more American than baseball now, and the fan base is getting bigger every day. *Most* of the drivers are respectable family men, and they don't go on strike every other year and whine for more money. Most of the major networks cover it in some way, shape or form, and you see less and less coverage of the other series out there.
NASCAR has a formula for making money, and that's exacty what "what's-his-face" from WRC is trying to do.
Cabo
While I do realize that I run the risk of stereotyping by trying to link social status to racing preference (as you have), I have to say that plenty of the the euro-jap car "experts" that used to sit around and watch F1 and WRC all day have switched over to NASCAR. I know quite a few...
NASCAR is more American than baseball now, and the fan base is getting bigger every day. *Most* of the drivers are respectable family men, and they don't go on strike every other year and whine for more money. Most of the major networks cover it in some way, shape or form, and you see less and less coverage of the other series out there.
NASCAR has a formula for making money, and that's exacty what "what's-his-face" from WRC is trying to do.
Cabo
I don't want to see all the top tier racecars turn into spec racers with rule twisting and points awards based not on winning, but on "trying hard" just to keep the points race tight. It doesn't excite me that 20 cars are within 20 points of each other, because I don't like artificial competition. I don't like watching cars turn left all day. I don't care if they figured out some new way to make a carburated V8 run better, because anything innovative in NASCAR besides safety equipment has no benefit on the street. I don't like to have races canceled because someone sneezed on the track and they can't get it to dry. I don't care to watch 25% of the race under caution because a fan threw a piece of tissue on the track. The extended cautions are just another attempt to "get people's laps back" for more artificial competition.
The fact that millions of fans can sit down and enjoy these spectacles, the fact that it is so popular and gaining popularity, the fact that I consider this form of racing plain rubbish and bad for racing, is the reason for my post. The backwoods retard comment was harsh, but that term was stuck in my head from watching Aqua Teen Hunger Force...the dumber dolls episode.
Oct 18, 2004, 10:52 AM
#62
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Maybe NASCAR has a sucessful business formula, but in a unique market. Perhaps the Japanese have "the answer" too, with their JGTC. I have no idea about any of the economy behind it, but the amount of coverage I have seen of it tends to make me think the series is wildly popular and successful. They have very different cars, powerplants and such with just the horsepower ceilings. Plus great support from the Japanese Big 3 as title sponsors. Mazda, Subaru and Mitsubishi all have had some campaigns. Maybe the WRC could follow their lead.
Interestingly enough, the guy running a Group N Evo finished 6th overall in the last rally (of wherever) against all the million dollar WRC machines. I don't see why they can't just start running production based cars to lessen the cost of entry.
Interestingly enough, the guy running a Group N Evo finished 6th overall in the last rally (of wherever) against all the million dollar WRC machines. I don't see why they can't just start running production based cars to lessen the cost of entry.
Last edited by GPTourer; Oct 18, 2004 at 10:55 AM.
Oct 18, 2004, 11:11 AM
#63
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this isn't a good idea what-so-ever... making it that the companies don't have to improve on what they have giving them stuff like shared trannies... if a co's tranny fails, they should have to make it better... how do you think the evo did just what it's name states and evolved??? through racing and research on an individual level... i'd rather watch wrc or f1 fail by teams dropping out than become cookie cutter like nascar... there are true drivers out there in wrc, that race to win and not get paid more... that's what inspires competition... nascar is not true competition anymore, and if i want to watch a scripted sport, i'll turn on wrestling... what's next? ferrari has to chop 3 out of 5 digits on schumacher's hands to make it more competitive so there's more revenue???
sorry for the spotted remarks, my lunch break is almost up...
sorry for the spotted remarks, my lunch break is almost up...
Oct 18, 2004, 01:38 PM
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I don't see what the big deal is about the proposed WRC rule changes. As has been pointed out, the 
WRC car is a lancer, not an Evo ... and it's only distantly related to a lancer at that. FWIW, my only interest in the WRC has been the group-n cars. I've never been all that interested in watchine one-off prototype rally cars. Group-N, on the other hand, allows me to see what street cars can be pushed to do.
l8r)
WRC car is a lancer, not an Evo ... and it's only distantly related to a lancer at that. FWIW, my only interest in the WRC has been the group-n cars. I've never been all that interested in watchine one-off prototype rally cars. Group-N, on the other hand, allows me to see what street cars can be pushed to do.l8r)
Oct 18, 2004, 01:43 PM
#67
When will mitsu stop producing turbocharged evo's then?
Could this help increase the value of an evo 8 or stop its rapid decline in resale value? We need some kind of help, hopefully this is it.
I would imagine the spectators will miss the sounds of a turbo engine.
Could this help increase the value of an evo 8 or stop its rapid decline in resale value? We need some kind of help, hopefully this is it.
I would imagine the spectators will miss the sounds of a turbo engine.
Oct 18, 2004, 02:22 PM
#68
Originally Posted by WOT
When will mitsu stop producing turbocharged evo's then?
d
Oct 19, 2004, 12:16 PM
#69
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Originally Posted by GPTourer
Interestingly enough, the guy running a Group N Evo finished 6th overall in the last rally (of wherever) against all the million dollar WRC machines. I don't see why they can't just start running production based cars to lessen the cost of entry.
On a separate note, IMO the official WRC site really sucks ... bad! Perhaps some of the money that will allegedly be saved can be allocated to designing a better site.
l8r)
Oct 19, 2004, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Ludikraut
Yep, IMO they could make it ALOT cheaper by just sticking to Group N. Hehe, if the WRC goes normally aspirated, then you'll probably start seeing some Group N cars getting the overall rally victories ... wouldn't that be ironic?
Dec 19, 2004, 11:45 AM
#71
It's a damn shame. Without homologation rules, we wouldn't have seen the likes of the Ford RS200, Ford Escort Cosworth, Ford Sierra RS Cosworth, Audi Quattro Sport, Lancia Delta HF Integrale Evoluzione, Lancia HF Stratos, Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution, Subaru Impreza STi, etc. on the streets (not that anyone regularly sees an RS200 but still...) It is really sad to see the homologation rules go.
As there is obviously a market for AWD pocket rockets with a rally heritage, I think they should bring back the homologation rules. Who wouldn't prefer a 2.0L turbocharged AWD Ford Focus to the anemic "SVT Focus"?
As there is obviously a market for AWD pocket rockets with a rally heritage, I think they should bring back the homologation rules. Who wouldn't prefer a 2.0L turbocharged AWD Ford Focus to the anemic "SVT Focus"?
Dec 19, 2004, 12:40 PM
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How many lancer evolutions were sold last year? A few thousand? I think it's more accurate to say that there are a few people who would drive nothing but an awd turbo car, and most people are more or less indifferent. The market doesn't exist for an awd turbo hatch in the 30K price range, that's why homologation was severely cut back... the manufacturers were threatening to pull out like they are toeday. Let's face it, today people want luxury and decent performance, but few are willing to sacrifice status or creature comforts to get a car with a rally heritage.
If they made an awd turbo focus, it would be priced up against the 350Z, RX-8, and G35 coupe. Granted, it would kill any of those cars on the track, but in terms of public opinion, people aren't impressed by what they see as a hotted up econobox. This demand is reflected by resale value. The G35 coupe has the highest resale value of any new car right now. Where's the evo on that list? Not so high, that's where.
Also, compared to the 80's, releasing a new version of a car today is much harder. Lots of emissions, safety, and crash testing regs to meet, so gone are the days of TRD bolting together a couple hundred ST165 celicas and selling them worldwide. You want more awd turbo cars, convince a few thousand people to buy them, and build the business case for making these cars. The problem that the evo (and cars like it) face in the US is the same one that killed the sports coupes in the 90's, the people who want the car can't afford to buy and insure it. That's not a great business proposition, no matter how you look at it.
I guess I would counter your homologation argument by saying that with homologation, it would be a two manufacturer series, which is to say that there wouldn't be a series at all. Hyundai, Skoda, Peugeot, Citroen, and Ford would not be in the WRC today if there were a road car homologation requirement. Those companies are hurting enough as it is, we should be thankful that they're running rally programs at all. Ford sold their F1 team and decided to stick with WRC, it could have easily gone the other way.
If they made an awd turbo focus, it would be priced up against the 350Z, RX-8, and G35 coupe. Granted, it would kill any of those cars on the track, but in terms of public opinion, people aren't impressed by what they see as a hotted up econobox. This demand is reflected by resale value. The G35 coupe has the highest resale value of any new car right now. Where's the evo on that list? Not so high, that's where.
Also, compared to the 80's, releasing a new version of a car today is much harder. Lots of emissions, safety, and crash testing regs to meet, so gone are the days of TRD bolting together a couple hundred ST165 celicas and selling them worldwide. You want more awd turbo cars, convince a few thousand people to buy them, and build the business case for making these cars. The problem that the evo (and cars like it) face in the US is the same one that killed the sports coupes in the 90's, the people who want the car can't afford to buy and insure it. That's not a great business proposition, no matter how you look at it.
I guess I would counter your homologation argument by saying that with homologation, it would be a two manufacturer series, which is to say that there wouldn't be a series at all. Hyundai, Skoda, Peugeot, Citroen, and Ford would not be in the WRC today if there were a road car homologation requirement. Those companies are hurting enough as it is, we should be thankful that they're running rally programs at all. Ford sold their F1 team and decided to stick with WRC, it could have easily gone the other way.
Last edited by osunick; Dec 19, 2004 at 12:42 PM.
Dec 19, 2004, 03:32 PM
#74
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the homolagation rules did produce the monsters that still today are lusted after by guys like myself and you probably. i guess we will wait and see what really happens. after the peugeot/citroen announced at the end of last season, the team boss (sorry i cannot remember his name) sounded like there might be more to the story. like maybe it wasnt really over, but more of a threat. the wrc makes huge advertising for companies that are succesful, like subaru. this alone i would hope is enough to get new blood into the sport. it has happened numerous times in formula 1 history where a team entered that was to be a huge underdog, but with one good driver, and enough money to back a good car everything can be different. honda should make an entry, as well as mazda, and IMHO vw should scrap Skoda and run a golf or something. i am glad someone revived this post, as the off season in killing me. why the hell doesnt speed show f1 decade in the off season?
Last edited by evolved04; Dec 19, 2004 at 03:33 PM. Reason: spelling
Dec 19, 2004, 04:31 PM
#75
Originally Posted by nsnguyen
How many lancer evolutions were sold last year? A few thousand? I think it's more accurate to say that there are a few people who would drive nothing but an awd turbo car, and most people are more or less indifferent. The market doesn't exist for an awd turbo hatch in the 30K price range, that's why homologation was severely cut back... the manufacturers were threatening to pull out like they are toeday. Let's face it, today people want luxury and decent performance, but few are willing to sacrifice status or creature comforts to get a car with a rally heritage.
Originally Posted by nsnguyen
If they made an awd turbo focus, it would be priced up against the 350Z, RX-8, and G35 coupe. Granted, it would kill any of those cars on the track, but in terms of public opinion, people aren't impressed by what they see as a hotted up econobox. This demand is reflected by resale value. The G35 coupe has the highest resale value of any new car right now. Where's the evo on that list? Not so high, that's where.
Originally Posted by nsnguyen
Also, compared to the 80's, releasing a new version of a car today is much harder. Lots of emissions, safety, and crash testing regs to meet, so gone are the days of TRD bolting together a couple hundred ST165 celicas and selling them worldwide. You want more awd turbo cars, convince a few thousand people to buy them, and build the business case for making these cars. The problem that the evo (and cars like it) face in the US is the same one that killed the sports coupes in the 90's, the people who want the car can't afford to buy and insure it. That's not a great business proposition, no matter how you look at it.
Originally Posted by nsnguyen
I guess I would counter your homologation argument by saying that with homologation, it would be a two manufacturer series, which is to say that there wouldn't be a series at all. Hyundai, Skoda, Peugeot, Citroen, and Ford would not be in the WRC today if there were a road car homologation requirement. Those companies are hurting enough as it is, we should be thankful that they're running rally programs at all. Ford sold their F1 team and decided to stick with WRC, it could have easily gone the other way.
