03EvoVIII

iTrader: (4)

think of it like this if you have step parents/siblings they aren't really your family, but you call them that any way... I think the Evo shares enough with a dsm to be considered one. The dsm guys can help us out and vice versa. Now about the 3G eclipse what a hunk of ****, nobody should ever even come close to comparing a dsm to one of those things.... (check vehicle)

bahamut

I agree with HK.

Remember it's the hardcore DSM'ers who define all the rules (aka Buchurs) on what's included or excluded. Moderate and fringe DSM'ers don't have much say in the matter.

Since the hardcore guys have the same arrogance as those Supra guys, imagine a guy trying to proclaim his 1g 4g37 as a DSM. He'll be snubbed and be flamebait for those hardcore guys.

Will a 5g mirage guy either a doctor or lawyer with plenty of money to blow in the show circuit get props for his real EVO conversion? Yes. Will it be considered a DSM? No. Don't believe me of such conversion . . . check the firewall.

How about the rarity of 4g mirage guys with a 4g63T transplant? Yes, they will give props for high HP and lesser weight. Will it be considered a DSM? Begrudging, no by hardcore DSM'ers since it wasn't made in the IL plant.

The only slight exception to the rule is the GVR4. The hardcore guys are split on the the matter. Some say yes because sharing the same chassis, but other would state it's not built in the US.

Now for the EVO. There are 3 rules.
1) 4g63T
2) eclipse chassis
3) build in that plant as a joint venture between chrysler and mitsu

See the EVO has already failed 2 out of the 3 general rules.


Finally, the burning Q on the 3g guys. I can tell you most hardcore guys despise the 3g guys. No matter how fast the 3g with TC can go. Hardcore guys will never accept them nor give props.

superGTO

Technically, the Lancer is not a DSM. DSM like most of you know is from Diamond Star Motors, a joint venture between Chrysler and Mitsu. The cars were mainly the Eclipse, Talon and Laser. Those three cars are technically the only real DSM's produced out of a DSM plant. the Lancer is by itself. That will of course change when the Neon converts to the Lancer platform in the next few years.

But, there realy is no reason to even care about any of this because we are all apart of the Mitsu family. We have much to learn off of each other whether your a GTO/Lancer/or DSM

TearItUpSports

iTrader: (2)

For the third time in this thread I will state that I know what the technical definition of a DSM is.
I am pointing out that above and beyond what are technically DSM's there are a few other cars welcomed to the community.

These include the late 2G eclipses (no they are not technically DSM's)
The Galant VR-4 which actually was the beginning of the platform since it had an 89 model in Japan. A fact that should be know is that every JDM engine that people swap in are off of Galant VR-4's (or evo)!
The Evo 1-3, but its not much issue since they were not sold here. They do share many parts and you can find them in DSM's often.

Along those lines the EVO's in general share a lot of similarities including most importantly the 4G63 Turbo engine.
Thus my question really is about whether the DSM community wants to grow larger by sharing events and knowledge base with the EVO, or if they want to slowly shrink by shunning the Us Evo to go off their own way.

I can already tell you which way most vendors are going to lean, as most are already ramping up plans for Evo parts. I just want to know if the rest of the community is gonna do the same.

Once again, I am NOT saying that an EVO is an actual DSM by the technical definition!

superGTO

Not implied... But I think it comes down to the overall DSM community to decide.

bahamut

It's pretty much an exclusive club. It's nothing that you or I can sway big whigs like Buchurs.


If the engine is the only criteria to become a DSM, it will open the floodgates of engine transplants. Hardcore guys won't muddle the waters with such issue.

Believe me, once the Evo hits the shore, DSM'ers will gun after them since some are already beating 911T.


Vendors don't define what's a DSM or not. They only cater to their consumers.

Moderate and fringe DSM'ers won't really care about the debate and will probably welcome the new addition. It's the hardcore guys who brings everyone in line on what it is to be a DSM'ers.

bahamut

Kudos. I believe the idea, but in the US there is an exclusiveness being a DSM'er or 3KGT owner (the latter tends to flaunt their money).

TearItUpSports

iTrader: (2)

I bet teh big whigs like Buchur, who are also vendors, are going to be the first to jump on the Evo bandwagon.
The real question is, will he invite them to the DSM shootout, which I bet he will, so he can take some by his shop.
If not, someone else will.

I would like to see all my friends at the DSM shootout, but Im not gonna bring my VR-4 up there when I have an Evo sitting here.

I might just have to help Mark start up that 4G63T vs. EJ20 shootout.

bahamut

This is third hand info from few DSM'ers who have went to his shootout last year . . . no way ever verfying it as valid or not - Buchur tends to make exceptions, especially glorifying himself.

Just like 3K GT owners were at the shootout and the smattering of GVR4's . . . they're not going to get the same comraderie being a dsm'er.

Well, will he invite them and consider them as DSM? He'll probably invite the smattering EVO owners but probably won't really acknowledge their presence.

RRE already sells some EVO parts. I know one guy in upstate NY boughr a Turbo mani for 1g GSX. So, the market is there, but RA holds the reins on EVO parts. This can be by-passed if someone wants to do R&D.

Then again, Buchur did a half-**** R&D for the NA Lancer that he gave up on the project like yesterday's news. From my POV, he implied that the 4g9x block was worthless to garner anymore attention from him.

Also, let's look at demographics. Who are the potential buyers that Mitsu's marketing team is targatting/slated to possibly buy the EVO. They are sure not going after DSM'ers hoping to upgrade to a performance sedan - not the GM method of upgrading within the company. Yes, few DSM'ers wanted to trade their car for an EVO since they have a family.

Mitsu is going after +35 - 45 yr old with money that can sway sales away from the performance sedan market. Anyone under 25 yrs old believe they can support themselves, insurance, and monthly payment of 600 bucks, they are very luck to have rich parents or lying through their teeth.



Sorry, my thoughts are jumbled.

TearItUpSports

iTrader: (2)

You bring up some good points.
As far as the target, regardless of it, I think there are actually going to be many DSM owners upgrading, since they will apreciate it more than many other people (being so similar). Thats kind of why I started this thread, as I am a DSM owner and have been to the shootout and other events etc.

I also think many DSM owners, especially the hardcore ones, are a much higher age bracket than what you are thinking. I am 27 and am young compared to my other DSM buddies.

There are also the people like me who no longer want a 10 year old car and all the normal maintenance issues associated with it.
I like my Galant VR-4, but lets face it: Its old and outdated.

I would love to attend the shootout with the EVO, but if we will be shunned, then I'm sure all the other Evo's can find something else fun to do.

Phalse

iTrader: (2)

While it is not a true dsm in the technical sense, it will likely be accepted by what is considered "club" dsm as it shares a similiar, if not exactly the same, chasis and a 4g63T.

BTW, the 2g NA is not accepted as a dsm, its a Neon. Nor is a "lancer".

travestyevo

Blah, Blah, Blah. First off, any DSM vendor or shop that turns away EVOs will loose money. Buschar/Road Race/Extreme, whoever. Done.

Second, Many upgrades to the DSM world have been brought to us (DSMers) via EVOs gone past.

Third, and most importantly, it is a community definition, not a techinical one. I have a 1G, a 2G, and will own a EVO. Why? Because I kind of feel I already have a wealth of knowedge about the EVO. Any true DSMer, will gladdly accept the EVO (whatever year) into his comunity. Why get hung up on the technical differences? Same engineers developed both cars. (mostly) I do like the idea of forming a 4g63T comnunity. It is just easier to type DSM.

BTW, I also support the idea of ej20 vs 4G63T. These little WRXs think they are so new and inovative with thier turbos and that new fangled Subaru technology AWD, while the DSM community has been doing it for, wha? 14 years! Also I have never seen so many wrecked cars but on the i-club or whatever it's called now.

Wanna a lesson.

www.dsm.org

/<

bahamut

Oh, I agree that there will be some DSM'ers stripping to trade their DSM. They either like the idea of travelling with their family in a car w/ a familar 4g63T or don't want the maintenance issues with their old warrior . . . that's kinda expected.

I define hardcore guys not really by age . . . by their philosophy just like H&A guys being frantics about the superiority of VTEC. Hardcore guys live, breathe, sleep, and die being a DSM'er and no amount of convincing will sway their from their rock solid belief.

That's being said. Let's see the possible sale graph of the impeding EVO. I'm willing to bet there will be at most 15% of all sales will be from DSM'ers - they know most the tech stuff on it already. About 80% will be just your normal rich guy and his family will a new toy or lease. The rest will be first time tuners, and they will be searching for a place on the net for a home to meet others like them or gain tech info like this forum on the NA lancer.



Few of us were not talking about vendors shunning EVO. That's dumb. We were talking about the inclusion of EVO in the DSM Shootout, an American Icon. I'm not sure about DSM'ers still doing an event at Englishtown, PA. I remember it being a big turnout about the late 90's.



Whenever concerning about the shootout, purist don't want the possibily of mudding the waters of their exclusiveness, especially engine swaps to any non true DSM vehicles.


Here's a stupid example.

What if there is a crazy 'stang 5.0 GT guy wants to swap his small block for a 3g rotary from a RX-7? Sure, he states that Ford has some shares in Mazda, so why not raid the RX-7 motor bin for parts. Then, he sources out for a 20B (3 rotary) and literally destroy his fellow pony car drivers on the 1/4 mile.

Do you think his fellow GT owners appreciate such swap? How about those RX-7 drivers. The vast majority on both sides will turn face on the guy. The only exception will be the gearheads . . . they love engineering or tuning challenges.

Let's apply this with a CRX with a 4g63T (pretty sure they exist somewhere in the US) in the shootout. I don't know if this had ever happened, but I'm thinking Mr. Buchur won't allow the driver of such car to participate in the event. If so, What's the general mood of other real DSM'ers seeing such CRX, especially whipping up on the competition?



Maybe, someone here will like to write a nice email to Mr Buchur about such Q. Please don't point him to this thread nor ask him why he quit his R&D work on the lancer.

GPTourer

That actually did happen. I'll have to look through my "Turbo" magazine library. The owner eventually swapped to a more traditional Honda setup.

HobieKopek

iTrader: (8)

So you know apparently David Buschur has plans to work on the Evolutions when they come. If that's not acceptance I don't know what is. I agree with the whole "just have to wait and see" thing I guess.

EDIT: Oh, and he dumped out development...the bastard. Stopped making the few parts he had already done R&D on.