I was saying that this system obviously works very well

 

oh don't get me wrong al, i love water/alcy injection just as much as you. in fact when i start modding my car that is one thing that will certainly be included. afterall anything the WRC guys like, i like.


and thanks for clarifying those numbers. i don't like it when people feed a line of BS and people here will beleive it (and i understand you didn't do it intentionally, just saying it in general)). just look at the first people who responded right away before me, they thought those were good numbers, but in reality they were bogus.

 

What is BS about my numbers ? The information was accurate and informative. I was trying to answer a technical question for a member. If in my tired condition I erroneously used gallons instead of pounds I do not see that as making my response "bogus." I don't have to try and explain how the system works - I am offering some data which may or may not be interesting to those reading. Why is it that you few guys from the Texas crew down there have to keep posting these negative attacks all the time?

 

Makes sense as to why mine spools like banshee!

 

So you also note the improvements in spool up wih the alcohol kit ?

 

Much quicker! I am pretty sure I can get 28psi by 3600 rpm. I CANNOT hit full boost in first gear without hitting the rev limit hard. When you drove it it was not building full boost in 1st and 2nd, I did what Dave told me to do and she hits so hard in first that it is just plain stupid! If I hit the 1-2 shift hard it fully breaks loose and i have to feather the gas or it hits the rev limit again!

 

Relax Al, we keep telling you that we either admire your accomplishments, or we like the product, or whatever. Texas is the Mecca of engineering and most all of us in that field are sticklers for accuracy. Don't be so uptight, we like the injection system.

 

so does alcohol injection render the use of C16 useless?
Or can it be used in conjunction with C16..and are there any more advantages in doing this?

 

I have tested this on my own car and so far with the 15 gallon per hour jet I was not able to make any additional power with the kit. I was testing it on a cold day so I would expect on a hot day it would help more.

I am going to test two 15 gal jets on my car and see how that works

I am runnibg 40 psi of boost so with the 15 gal jet and a fixed 90 - 95 psi line pressure it reduces the flow to 7.5 or so gal per hour in my manifold when I am reaching full boost - prob not enough to make any significant gains when I have 4 96 pound injectors running 100 % duty cycle at 6 bars of fuel pressure

 

yeah al relax. i just pointed out a simple mistake which to me looked like you were trying to make your Alcohol injection sound like some insane system that it wasn't (which i know wasn't the case after you made your correction). you corrected your error, and i applauded you. and just like woosh said, as an engineer i like to see your values and units correct or else it is wrong. you original had the wrong units, you corrected, and then everything was ok. in my first post i said your units were wrong (which they were), and you fixed them. and in my reply to your reply i said, i don't like to see BS numbers in general. you fixed yours therefor they were not BS anymore.

now is everything cool? i like your injection system, and it is great that your informing the uniformed about how it works, and the benefits you can get from it.

(just don't tell anyone what happens when your injector clogs, you loose water/alcohol pressure, or you run out of water and the computer cannot correct for problems in time. it's not pretty and i'll leave it at that)

 

KevinD... your pocket protector is crooked...

 

hehe i am actually one of the most unlikely engineers you will ever see. i'm 23 (most people think i am younger because i still can't grow a full beard) have died black hair, i regularly attend hardcore and politcal punkrock shows. pocket protector? hahaha. admittedly it is funny.

 

There are several safeguards built into this kit to prevent any problems

First - there is a low level iwarning ndicator light

Second - there is a built in test button that the customer is instructed to use each and every time they start driveing which will show you that the system if working

Third - there is a built in verification light that has a pressure switch that shows that the alcohol is spraying at the proper pressure

With this said - with any aftermarket modifications you make there is always some risk. The issue is how great is the rsk vs. benefit.

It is my FIRM CONVICTION that FAR MORE people will blow up their engines from detonation caused by improper tuning or too much boost who are not using alccohol - than those who blow up becuase of failed alcohol injection kits.

Finally - it is also my position to set up most tunes in such a way that the car will NOT blow up if the alcohol fails. David Buschur already tested this theory out by deactivating the alcohol on a car we tuned with it and nothing bad happend.

The fact is that the stock ecu will pull out timing real fast when and IF the alcohol stops spraying. When running a stock ecu you have a lot of saftey built into the ecu.

Also - see the folloiwng data I previously posted in my section about some ways of making sure you dont have any tuning issues.

Speaking with Dan Cokic of Pruven Performance we have decided that and EGT gauge while helpful will prob not react fast enough to give you qucik enough warning in the event of a failure in the alcohol system.

We suggest the following :



I used that in my race car the lights are directly in my line of sight in front of my face = suggestionj is when you see the red light light up - KNOCK - then immediately lift the gas and test the alcohol injection before you go further

From the manufaturer's site :

Most modern engines will already have a knock sensor fitted as standard, but any type of knock sensor may be fitted as required. The sensor is normally screwed into a boss on the engine block although some manufacturers fit the sensor in the inlet manifold (especially Ford). In either case, the sensor must be in such a position that block vibrations are coupled to the sensor.

Assuming the engine is operating correctly, the LEDs will show only background noise which will rise in proportion to engine power output. Any abrupt rise in signal level at any time is an indication that detonation is occurring. The immediate remedy is to close the throttle. Severe detonation will destroy any engine in seconds.

Knocking is the self detonation of the unburnt fuel in the combustion chamber toward the end of combustion. The flame burns abound ten times faster than normal causing huge pressures. Possible cures for knocking are: cooler intake air; increased intake humidity; reduce load; increase RPM; enrichen or lean engine from lambda stoichiometric; improve spark; increase octane level of fuel; reduce total ignition advance etc.

• Monitor engine “Noise”.
• Optimise advance.
• Detect Detonation.
• Mechanical or Electronic Ignition.
• Toolbox tool or permanent fit

I can supply these as needed - I always run one on every turbo car I have


Of course there are more costly and fail safe proactive measures available to protect against alcohol kit failure such as :



From a web site on the safeguard:

What is SafeGuard?
The SafeGuard is the only ignition system available with INDIVIDUAL cylinder knock control.....and much more.


The SafeGuard is a fully digital, closed loop, integrated system controlled by a Motorola Micro Processor. The SafeGuard also includes a H/O ignition amplifier and an adjustable velvet touch REV limiter - all in one self contained, compact box.
The knock retard system is beautiful. It has the ability to retard ONLY the offending cylinder(s) that cause the knock. It does not retard the baseline ignition setting on all cylinders. Only the ones that require it. This can add significant torque to an otherwise 'retarded' engine. Limited Dyno tests have shown an improvement of 15%. Actual road tests with different cars have shown a 30% improvement. With individual timing control, you will decrease your fuel consumption, lower engine temperatures and promote engine longevity. The system uses a closed-loop digital circuit, micro-processor control and a custom algorithm to identify and process knock.

The SafeGuard can be triggered by any 'ignition' system. Stock (points), magnetic, reluctor, LED, etc. If needed, it can also drive any 'aftermarket' system, like MSD, Crane, Capacitive Discharge and similar units. We have found, that in most cases, this is not necessary because the SafeGuard has a built in ignition amplifier which and will output 7 amps of current. Compared to G.M.'s H.E.I system the SafeGuard boasts a 62% increase in coil output over the GM HEI system.

Included with the SafeGuard's built in ignition amplifier is a feature called "active dwell control." Active dwell control is a very powerful means to add a significant increase to the output of the coil. With active dwell control the SafeGuard is constantly monitoring the coil output and actively varying the dwell for maximum coil saturation. The MSD does not have active dwell control, nor do most other ignition systems.

The built-in digital REV limiter is 'velvet touch' and is fully adjustable, on the car - you can make changes while the engine is running. No plug-in modules to buy or fall out during use.

The SafeGuard will side-step all the mumbo-jumbo of proper timing, etc. and keep your engine running at perfect performance. It installs simply between the 'points' and the coil. Only four wires to connect the unit: two grounds, one hot lead, the 'points' lead. One wire to connect the input from the knock sensor. That is it. A little of adjusting for sensitivity and you are set. It could not be easier. You will love it.

The SafeGuard is one integrated, fully designed package. You do not need a bunch of 'other' boxes hanging around your engine compartment. And you do not have to worry about 'compatibility' of the boxes interfacing with each other.


The SafeGuard Marine/Racing Kit

Is the SafeGuard expensive? You be the judge. If you add up what you get with the SafeGuard, in one 'box' and compare it to what you would have to spend 'piece meal' on other systems, it looks like this:


Electronic Ignition system: $90 to $195 (depending on the manufacture)
Rev. Limiter: $75 to $110 (some are not adjustable w/o added costs)
Knock retard: $150 to $350 (no other system has cylinder control, and/or are not a closed loop micro-processor controlled)
Total: $315 to $665 (cost of other products to do some of what the Safeguard does)



The investment in a SafeGuard unit is $564.00. Each unit is custom programmed for its specific application. These are built specific for Corvair installation. Please allow 3-4 weeks for building and programming. Satisfaction is fully guaranteed. Units available for other engines; please inquire.

You may also be interested in a monitor display that is available for the SafeGuard. The new 2 1/16" round dual monitor is machined from billet aluminum and black anodized. A Ten segment red LED bargraph display shows amount of retard, and thus gives an quick, visual indication of the engine's tendency to knock at any particular time. The Air / Fuel portion of the display uses 10 LEDs also; 3 Red, 4 Yellow and 3 Green. A great feature of this dual monitor is the dual mode switch. It is the first A/F display available to feature a dual mode switch. This switch, on the front of the display, expands the A/F display along the sweet spot to further enhance the usable display while tuning in critical the power mode.

The monitor is driven by the SafeGuard to which it attaches with a supplied, standard 1/8" jack. A built-in light sensor dims the display automatically at night. To drive the A/F portion of the dual monitor display you will need a standard 02 sensor which is available for your specific application.


Billet Aluminum

Dual Monitor

The dual monitor is what I use when I tune engines. It is such a big help to run the engine, on the road, under load and see just what it is doing. This makes selecting the proper jet sizes for maximum engine performance and economy a 'snap'. I use to spend days tuning a turbo carb, now, a few hours. Both units have a automatic brightness control - adjusts for the ambient light conditions.

The monitor also serve as a diagnostics link with the SafeGuard. During startup the SafeGuard runs an internal diagnostics test and the results codes are displayed on the monitor. This graphically shows that your SafeGuard is properly working and also verifies a working interface between the SafeGuard, Engine and Monitor.

If you would like to order a SafeGuard please contact us so we can discuss your specific application needs to properly build and program your SafeGuard system:

 

Does the Knocklink just give you lights for the voltage of the OEM knock sensor, or is there more to it?

Is it any better than just using the knock monitor on an SAFCII?

 

I recomend using the bosch knock sensor that knock link comes with as an option

It gives you a very clear visual warning when the car knocks