Dtech

I agree about establishing a relationship with a dealer, that's very important for other things later on as well such as parts and warranty service, but are you saying that contract law in general does not apply to car dealerships??? I would think the attorney general's office of any state would disagree with you. If I have a piece of paper with signatures that says the dealer will sell me a car for MSRP+tax+tag and a deposit, you better believe I'd take them to court in a heart beat if they tried to back out of it or change the terms. That can also be considered fraud.

M3lachsilber

Guys and Gals..This is crucial!!! Otherwise you may see a side of your rep that you didn't bank on..

trigeek37

I trust that my dealer will sell me the car at MSRP as promised. I have a handshake agreement, and that is enough for me. He seems like a decent guy, and I think he wants to do right by me. If they screw me by trying to charge over MSRP, then so be it, I will wait and buy an Evo later, or not get one at all. Most of us (myself included – and most dealers) don’t know a damn thing about contract law, and jedinite is right – what most of us have signed as buyer agreements aren’t worth ****. I am lucky that I happen to have a couple of friends that are contract lawyers – and they have confirmed that my agreement is worth nothing when it comes down to it. I actually doubt you could get a legally binding agreement from a dealership…

But I am the buyer, and I have all the power in the world when it comes to buying the car, cause ultimately I can take my business elsewhere. I can also let my voice be heard. And with modern technology being what it is today, my voice is as loud as I want it to be. I will not allow myself to be taken advantage of - after all the Evo is just a car, a special car, but still just a car - nothing to get all that worked up over.

Secret Chimp

iTrader: (2)

but I don't think you can make a true purchase agreement until the dealership itself knows how much your car, including it's options will cost.

SC

Dtech

Here is an excerpt from Florida Statutes:

1501.976 Actionable, unfair, or deceptive acts or practices.--It is an unfair or deceptive act or practice, actionable under the Florida Deceptive and Unfair Trade Practices Act, for a dealer to:

(9) Obtain signatures from a customer on contracts that are not fully completed at the time the customer signs or which do not reflect accurately the negotiations and agreement between the customer and the dealer.

(10) Require or accept a deposit from a prospective customer prior to entering into a binding contract for the purchase and sale of a vehicle unless the customer is given a written receipt that states how long the dealer will hold the vehicle from other sale and the amount of the deposit, and clearly and conspicuously states whether and upon what conditions the deposit is refundable or nonrefundable.

(15) Increase the price of the vehicle after having accepted an order of purchase or a contract from a buyer, notwithstanding subsequent receipt of an official price change notification. The price of a vehicle may be increased after a dealer accepts an order of purchase or a contract from a buyer if:
(a) A trade-in vehicle is reappraised because it subsequently is damaged, or parts or accessories are removed;
(b) The price increase is caused by the addition of new equipment, as required by state or federal law;
(c) The price increase is caused by the revaluation of the United States dollar by the Federal Government, in the case of a foreign-made vehicle;
(d) The price increase is caused by state or federal tax rate changes; or
(e) Price protection is not provided by the manufacturer, importer, or distributor.

The only thing that (e) refers to is if the manufacturer, importer, or distributor has not set pricing for the dealer yet. The dealer has the right to alter the price according to the price given to them given the offical price from the provider.

What all this boils down to is, at least in the State of Florida and I suspect everywhere else, if you have an agreement stating MSRP+tax+tag, signatures, and a deposit, the dealer MUST honor the agreement!

jedinite

You guys are right regarding the specifics of the law.

Of course its illegal. Of course its slimey.



That's not going to stop an unscrupulous dealer (like anyone wanting to charge a premium over MSRP) from doing it.

What are you going to do if you go back to the dealer and he lets you know there will be a $2000 "market adjustment" in the car?

Are you going to call the attorney general? Are you going to call a lawyer? Do you think either situation will result in you getting a car right away for MSRP from that dealer?

I'm just trying to give you a dose of reality from someone who has been there.... the paper on your purchase order stating "X car for MSRP" is pretty much worth the paper its written on.

Look at the loopholes:

"X car for MSRP" doesn't include options, including dealer installed options. Doesn't specify a total price tag. They could install a set of $3000 "MSRP" wheels. Or the infamous "paint protection" at $1500+.

"X car for MSRP" doesn't include a date. They will sell you one, some day... just not now.

And hundreds of other things.

If you have an actual purchase order with a VIN number, a production date, a delivery date, and a fixed dollar amount, you're in pretty good shape. Then you've got something resembling an actual contract.

But most dealer "pre-purchase orders" (like "you can buy an Evo VIII at MSRP") are smokescreens that any lawyer can get through on either side... trivial to get out of for either party.

Establish a relationship with your dealer... don't depend on a nebulous piece of paper and the threat of a lawsuit....

M3lachsilber

And all information is completed!!

Great stuff! You are entered into a binding contract, and so is the dealer!!

BTW..
Someone posted that the dealers weren't sure about pricing yet..
That is false. Price announcement has occured..

limey

I am a realist....I have evaluated what the car is worth to me...
Kind of like a mental auction....I know this car will be in short supply....maybe for a while maybe indefinately. I plan on keeping the car until the wheels fall off and beyond....I feel the evo is a future classic....for this reason I have set my limit as to what I will pay for the car.....I think it will be very optimistic for anyone to think they will obtain one of the first allocation cars, without a small premium tagged on by the dealer....as I have said, what is this cars value to you?

Dtech

jedinite: that why I said "if you have an agreement stating MSRP+tax+tag, signatures, and a deposit, the dealer MUST honor the agreement!" And if I wanted the car bad enough, yes I would take them to court and let them pay my legal fees....there goes the profit they would have made on the car and then some!

M3: if they accept a deposit, any written agreement is a binding contact per #10

Anyway, I'm just trying to look out for myself and fellow enthusiasts. I'm not saying any of this in an angry tone or to be confrontational with any sales people out there. I just want to make the point that these cars don't need to be "pimped" to make the dealers and sales people a good profit and if you get MSRP+tax+tag in writting and put your money down, you are LEGALLY set.

Besides, I personally am waiting several months to get an EVO, STi, RX-8, or anything else, to see how the industry pans out and how the test drives are.

jedinite

Dtech - even if you have something that says "MSRP" (not a dollar figure, bu the term MSRP) with signatures and a deposit you're still not set in the real world.

"Legally" is a term that has almost no reflection in this situation.

Even if you end up taking the dealer to court, do you think that you'll get a first allocation car for MSRP when its over? You'll be lucky to be in and out of court in six months. And if you get a settlement, you'll get a check for damages. You won't get a car.

And even so, the term MSRP is so nebulous that they're not even going to need to go to court to deal with you.

They can just add various items to the price. As long as those items are MSRP, then you can't contest. Your "contract' doesn't say that it does or does not include Dealer Installed Options such as paint protection. So all they have to do is throw a "Paint Protection package" on the sticker as a DIO, put MSRP for that package at $3000, and your "MSRP" contract now effectively means MSRP + $3000.

The point I'm trying to make, to protect fellow enthusiasts, is to not get into a situation where you think the "purchase order" you got with your deposit is going to ensure you a first allocation car at MSRP.

The honesty of the dealer (and your interactions with them) is the only thing that's going to get you a first allocation car at MSRP. If you're dealing with a dealer who is going to try to screw you, by all means, go after them legally. But don't think that you'll end up getting a first allocation Evo at MSRP out of the deal... because you won't.

Go in, talk to your dealer. Don't be a dick and wave around a piece of paper spouting "MSRP this" and "Legally that". Let them know that you are interested in purchasing the car, and that you are interested in starting a relationship with the dealer. You're young, this will likely not be the last car you (or your family) purchase. If it comes to it, let the dealer know that you will not stand for paying over MSRP for the car, and that you will take your business elsewhere if they want over MSRP. Leave the legal action as a last ditch threat, if things really don't work out. And even then, don't talk or threaten the dealer - go to a lawyer, let them make the call.

M3lachsilber

Wow!!! Jedi!!

You nailed it like a Carpenter!!
Very impressive..

Secret Chimp

iTrader: (2)

Dealerships know the base MSRP of the EVO. They do not know the additional costs of the wing or sunroof....nor do they even know what "Base MSRP" includes.

SC

Dtech

Again, I want to say that even with all that's been said, I'm not trying to be a jerk or angry about this, I'm very much trying to be a realist.

I guess this thread got a little out of hand with all the "legal" issues, but since there was talk about dealers not having to honor what we will call "written promises" (to avoid any further legal talk) when so many people on the Suabru thread have that "promise" from so many different Subaru dealers, it's kind of hard to ignore the fact that it would be a very messy issue for Subaru if all or even some of those dealers all of a sudden decided they were going to have lied to their customers and charge them more than MSRP (regardless of options {the STi really only has one...the radio}, "rust proofing", scotchguarding, pinstriping, market adjustment, or any other way to write added profit).

will do themselves a lot of good by making long term customers vs. short term profits on a single vehicle. Brand loyalty and repeat customers are the name of the game are they not?

Jedi: no offense, but you seem to be very adamant about bring up every possible way a dealer can try to screw people out of what they've been "promised". Legal issues aside, a bad image, word of mouth, and the Internet are three good non-legal reasons for dealers to honor their "promises", especially with enthusiast vehicles like these. Besides, even if the dealer does somehow end up screwing the customer out of a couple of grand on that one vehicle, you think they'll ever see that customer again for a sale let alone anything else?

You are telling customers to go in to dealers and be nice about it, so there is no reason the dealers shouldn't show the same courtesy when they make a "promise" regardless of the brand.

Dtech

and actually some people did get a "promise" stating "no options".....

jedinite

Dtech - I agree completely.

I am just trying to pass on the message not to worry too much about the "legality" of the deposit "contract". Work directly with the dealer, and don't be an a-hole about it. Because the "legality" of the "contract" is the last thing that will matter if the dealer wants to screw you over.

Of course, the best thing for the dealers to do is to treat everyone fairly. But reality is that there are scumbag dealers out there just like there are scumbag buyers (someone who would try to speculate on a spot and resell it for a profit, for example).

I just want to pass on the message that the "deposit slip" isn't the most important thing in this transaction - having a good understanding with a fair dealer is. If you don't have that, no matter how the deposit slip is worded, you're SOL.