What Brand (10-30) Oil Do You Use And Why?
May 26, 2005, 01:12 PM
#61
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It is time to dispel the notion that 0W-30 oil is too thin when our manual calls for 10W-30. A 0W-30 is always the better choice, always. The 0W-30 is not thinner. It is the same thickness as the 10W-30 at operating temperatures. The difference is when you turn your engine off for the night. Both oils thicken over the evening and night. They both had a thickness, a viscosity of 10 when you got home and turned your engine off. That was the perfect thickness for engine operation.
As cooling occurs and you wake up ready to go back to work the next day the oils have gotten too thick for your engine to lubricate properly. It is 75 F outside this morning. One oil thickened to a viscosity of say 90. The other thickened to a viscosity of 40. Both are too thick in the morning at startup. But 40 is better than 90. Your engine wants the oil to have a thickness of 10 to work properly. You are better off starting with the viscosity of 40 than the honey - like oil with a viscosity of 90.
I repeat: More confusion occurs because people think in terms of the oil thinning when it gets hot. They think this thinning with heat is the problem with motor oil. It would be more correct to think that oil thickens when it cools to room temperature and THIS is the problem. In fact this is the problem.
Motor Oil 102
Chapter two. It gets more difficult.
We left off discussing that a 0W-30 weight oil is not thinner than a 10W-30 oil. They both have the same thickness at operating temperature. The 0W-30 simply does not get as thick on cooling as the 10W-30. Both are still way to thick to lubricate an engine at startup.
I have heard several people say that Porsche specifically prohibits a 0W-XX engine oil, that it is too thin. Now here is the partial truth I spoke of earlier. We will discuss multigrade oils. Earlier we said that a straight 30 weight oil has a thickness of 10 at the normal operating temperature of your engine. The multigrade oils 0W-30 and 10W-30 also have a thickness of 10 at 212 F.
The difference is at 75 F, your startup temperature in the morning.
Oil type... Thickness at 75 F...Thickness at 212 F
Straight 30...... 250......................10
10W-30............100......................10
0W-30..............40 ......................10
Straight 10........30....................... 6
Now you can see that the difference between the desired thickness your engine requires ( = 10 ) is closest to the 0W-30 oil at startup. It is still too thick for normal operation. But it does not have far to go before it warms up and thins to the correct viscosity. Remember that most engine wear occurs at startup when the oil is too thick to lubricate properly. It cannot flow and therefore cannot lubricate. Most of the thick oil at startup actually goes through the bypass valve back to the engine oil sump and not into your engine oil ways. This is especially true when you really step on that gas pedal. You really need more lubrication and you actually get less.
Note that a straight 10 weight oil is also too thick for your engine at startup. It has a thickness of 30. Yet at operating temperatures it is too thin having a thickness of 6. It needs to be around 10. The oil companies have added viscosity index improvers or VI to oils to solve this dilemma. They take a mineral based oil and add VI improvers so that it does not thin as as much when it gets hotter. Now instead of only having a thickness of 6 when hot it has a thickness of 10, just as we need.
The penalty is the startup thickness also goes up to 100. This is better than being up at 250 as a straight 30 weight oil though. Oil with a startup thickness of 100 that becomes the appropriate thickness of 10 when fully warmed up is called a 10W-30 weight motor oil. This is NOT as thick as a straight 30 weight oil at startup and it is NOT as thin as a straight 10 weight oil at full operating temperature.
The downside of a mineral based multigrade oil is that this VI additive wears out over time and you end up with the original straight 10 weight oil. It will go back to being too thin when hot. It will have a thickness of 6 instead of 10. This may be why Porsche (according to some people) does not want a 0W-30 but rather a 10W-30. If the VI wears out the 0W-30 will ultimately be thinner, a straight 0 weight oil. When the VI is used up in the 10W-30 oil it too is thinner. It goes back to a straight 10 weight oil. They are both still too thick at startup, both of them. The straight 0 weight oil, a 5 weight oil and a 10 weight oil are all too thick at startup.
This is just theory however. With normal oil change intervals the VI improver will not wear out and so the problem does not really exist. In fact, oils do thin a little with use. This is partly from dilution with blow by gasoline and partly from VI improvers being used up. What is more interesting is that with further use motor oils actually thicken and this is much worse than the minimal thinning that may have occurred earlier.
Synthetic oils are a whole different story. There is no VI improver added so there is nothing to wear out. The actual oil molecules never wear out. You could almost use the same oil forever. The problem is that there are other additives and they do get used up. I suppose if there was a good way to keep oil clean you could just add a can of additives every 6 months and just change the filter, never changing the oil.
When the additives wear out in a synthetic oil it still has the same viscosity. It will not thin as a mineral oil. The fear that some say Porsche has that oils thin when the VI runs out is not applicable to these synthetic oils. These oils will always have the correct thickness when hot and will still be too thick at startup as with all oils of all types, regardless of the API / SAE viscosity rating.
Automotive engine manufacturers know these principals of motor oils. They know there is thinning or thickening that will occur. They take these things into account when they write that owners manual. Mineral oil change recommendations will generally include shorter time intervals than those of synthetic oils.
The reality is that motor oils do not need to be changed because they thin with use. It is the eventual thickening that limits the time you may keep oil in your engine. The limit is both time itself (with no motor use) and/or mileage use.
End of part two.
As cooling occurs and you wake up ready to go back to work the next day the oils have gotten too thick for your engine to lubricate properly. It is 75 F outside this morning. One oil thickened to a viscosity of say 90. The other thickened to a viscosity of 40. Both are too thick in the morning at startup. But 40 is better than 90. Your engine wants the oil to have a thickness of 10 to work properly. You are better off starting with the viscosity of 40 than the honey - like oil with a viscosity of 90.
I repeat: More confusion occurs because people think in terms of the oil thinning when it gets hot. They think this thinning with heat is the problem with motor oil. It would be more correct to think that oil thickens when it cools to room temperature and THIS is the problem. In fact this is the problem.
Motor Oil 102
Chapter two. It gets more difficult.
We left off discussing that a 0W-30 weight oil is not thinner than a 10W-30 oil. They both have the same thickness at operating temperature. The 0W-30 simply does not get as thick on cooling as the 10W-30. Both are still way to thick to lubricate an engine at startup.
I have heard several people say that Porsche specifically prohibits a 0W-XX engine oil, that it is too thin. Now here is the partial truth I spoke of earlier. We will discuss multigrade oils. Earlier we said that a straight 30 weight oil has a thickness of 10 at the normal operating temperature of your engine. The multigrade oils 0W-30 and 10W-30 also have a thickness of 10 at 212 F.
The difference is at 75 F, your startup temperature in the morning.
Oil type... Thickness at 75 F...Thickness at 212 F
Straight 30...... 250......................10
10W-30............100......................10
0W-30..............40 ......................10
Straight 10........30....................... 6
Now you can see that the difference between the desired thickness your engine requires ( = 10 ) is closest to the 0W-30 oil at startup. It is still too thick for normal operation. But it does not have far to go before it warms up and thins to the correct viscosity. Remember that most engine wear occurs at startup when the oil is too thick to lubricate properly. It cannot flow and therefore cannot lubricate. Most of the thick oil at startup actually goes through the bypass valve back to the engine oil sump and not into your engine oil ways. This is especially true when you really step on that gas pedal. You really need more lubrication and you actually get less.
Note that a straight 10 weight oil is also too thick for your engine at startup. It has a thickness of 30. Yet at operating temperatures it is too thin having a thickness of 6. It needs to be around 10. The oil companies have added viscosity index improvers or VI to oils to solve this dilemma. They take a mineral based oil and add VI improvers so that it does not thin as as much when it gets hotter. Now instead of only having a thickness of 6 when hot it has a thickness of 10, just as we need.
The penalty is the startup thickness also goes up to 100. This is better than being up at 250 as a straight 30 weight oil though. Oil with a startup thickness of 100 that becomes the appropriate thickness of 10 when fully warmed up is called a 10W-30 weight motor oil. This is NOT as thick as a straight 30 weight oil at startup and it is NOT as thin as a straight 10 weight oil at full operating temperature.
The downside of a mineral based multigrade oil is that this VI additive wears out over time and you end up with the original straight 10 weight oil. It will go back to being too thin when hot. It will have a thickness of 6 instead of 10. This may be why Porsche (according to some people) does not want a 0W-30 but rather a 10W-30. If the VI wears out the 0W-30 will ultimately be thinner, a straight 0 weight oil. When the VI is used up in the 10W-30 oil it too is thinner. It goes back to a straight 10 weight oil. They are both still too thick at startup, both of them. The straight 0 weight oil, a 5 weight oil and a 10 weight oil are all too thick at startup.
This is just theory however. With normal oil change intervals the VI improver will not wear out and so the problem does not really exist. In fact, oils do thin a little with use. This is partly from dilution with blow by gasoline and partly from VI improvers being used up. What is more interesting is that with further use motor oils actually thicken and this is much worse than the minimal thinning that may have occurred earlier.
Synthetic oils are a whole different story. There is no VI improver added so there is nothing to wear out. The actual oil molecules never wear out. You could almost use the same oil forever. The problem is that there are other additives and they do get used up. I suppose if there was a good way to keep oil clean you could just add a can of additives every 6 months and just change the filter, never changing the oil.
When the additives wear out in a synthetic oil it still has the same viscosity. It will not thin as a mineral oil. The fear that some say Porsche has that oils thin when the VI runs out is not applicable to these synthetic oils. These oils will always have the correct thickness when hot and will still be too thick at startup as with all oils of all types, regardless of the API / SAE viscosity rating.
Automotive engine manufacturers know these principals of motor oils. They know there is thinning or thickening that will occur. They take these things into account when they write that owners manual. Mineral oil change recommendations will generally include shorter time intervals than those of synthetic oils.
The reality is that motor oils do not need to be changed because they thin with use. It is the eventual thickening that limits the time you may keep oil in your engine. The limit is both time itself (with no motor use) and/or mileage use.
End of part two.
Last edited by zmeli; May 26, 2005 at 01:18 PM.
May 26, 2005, 01:33 PM
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Just wondering, most people on this forum do not use stock fluids for the drivetrain.
Originally Posted by gonzo
Still on stock fluid why. What are you trying to get at?
May 26, 2005, 01:47 PM
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I still have yet to see anyone answer why they would choose a w40 oil over a w30. If this were a discussion about a Cat C7 motor rather than an Evo... I could understand. It's so odd to hear that someone actually switched to a thicker oil that leads to less power and greater fuel consumption in a sports car. If one of the w40 users could provide some insight on their thinking it would be greatly appreciated. If longevity is your primary concern I could understand... maybe...
May 26, 2005, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by dryad001
Sweet another Motul user. I use the 300v competition 10w30. Cost per oil change $80.
May 26, 2005, 02:12 PM
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Motor oil that is labeled for RACING ONLY is not usable for every day driving. Often these have more additives that are toxic to your catalytic converters and the environment. These oils generally do not have detergents. These are very important for your engine unless you plan on taking it apart every few weeks and cleaning every single surface. The oils do not meet the API / SAE requirements for ratings as SJ, SL or now SM.
You do not need to use the exact oil type and brand that your car manual tells you to use. Oils are pretty general. They are not that different. Ferrari is married to Shell. If you call them up and ask to use Valvoline instead they will tell you that they have not tested that brand in their cars. They only tested the engine with Shell oils. They cannot comment on the performance of other oils in their engines. This is a fair statement. The reality is that the Shell and Valvoline oils of the same specification (viscosity, API and SAE ratings, synthetic or not) are very similar. ( I do have my bullet proof vest on ).
You do not need to use the exact oil type and brand that your car manual tells you to use. Oils are pretty general. They are not that different. Ferrari is married to Shell. If you call them up and ask to use Valvoline instead they will tell you that they have not tested that brand in their cars. They only tested the engine with Shell oils. They cannot comment on the performance of other oils in their engines. This is a fair statement. The reality is that the Shell and Valvoline oils of the same specification (viscosity, API and SAE ratings, synthetic or not) are very similar. ( I do have my bullet proof vest on ).
Originally Posted by meanmud
Redline 
May 26, 2005, 02:35 PM
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CICreations, I don't believe it is a "cheaper is always better" line of thinking but you have to understand that a lot of people on this forum probably invest a considerable amount of their paycheck in their car payment just so they could own their dream car. The line of thinking here isn't "cheaper is always better" rather "Why spend the extra money when this is just as good?"
We're talking from a relative perspective, of course. If brand x meets the requirements and is cost effective, then why spend extra $$$ if the real world benefits don't show anything different? Translation... how many of these people are really going to keep their cars for 100,000+ miles to make this worth their while?
We're talking from a relative perspective, of course. If brand x meets the requirements and is cost effective, then why spend extra $$$ if the real world benefits don't show anything different? Translation... how many of these people are really going to keep their cars for 100,000+ miles to make this worth their while?
May 26, 2005, 02:54 PM
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Husker, BECAUSE IT'S THE AMERICAN WAY DAMNIT!!! LOL, If you're not spending every dime, you're doing something wrong!!! All you need to save money for is for Roman noodles and track time! J/K man. All I was saying is that Zmeli is pretty nutty about researching oils. Myself and a couple other car guys we work with Zmeli and if there's one thing he knows it's car maintenance. So if he says it's worth taking a look at...then I would. He has sent in samples of his oil when he tried Mobil 1 in his Evo. They sent it back and said that after 1,100 miles it had broken down. I believe he posted the print out above on this page. But as always it's your car dude...Im not making your payments.. lol
Last edited by CICreations; May 26, 2005 at 03:06 PM.
May 26, 2005, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by WNLancer
where do you guys buy Castol GC?
May 26, 2005, 03:13 PM
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Also you guys...I bought that Fram quick drain plug for my oil pan. I put it in a couple of oil changes ago (It replaces the drain plug) and the last time I drained my oil I just took off the outer cap that's hand tight...and screwed on the drain valve that fits right over the Fram quick drain plug. It has about a 8 inch orange hose that you can direct where ever your drain pan is so you don't spill a drop...and more importantly, you don't burn the **** out of your hand. I've had this on for about 3,000 miles now and no leaks or any complaints. It's deffinatly worth getting and it's only about $10. Also at Autozone.
May 26, 2005, 03:18 PM
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It is the American way, isn't it... 
This information is great though, isn't it? You have to love knowing that every day someone else comes along with another new breakthrough that will give you that 1 extra HP you are looking for or will extend the life of your motor for that extra mile.
I personally don't mind spending a little extra money as long as there is a practical or real world benefit. I'm not in the "overboard" camp but I am in the "proven to be true" camp. If independent testing results verify that brand X motor oil consistantly shows less wear and tear AT STARTUP (where virtually all of a modern motor's wear happens) over an extended period of time... I will be standing in line to buy it.
This information is great though, isn't it? You have to love knowing that every day someone else comes along with another new breakthrough that will give you that 1 extra HP you are looking for or will extend the life of your motor for that extra mile.I personally don't mind spending a little extra money as long as there is a practical or real world benefit. I'm not in the "overboard" camp but I am in the "proven to be true" camp. If independent testing results verify that brand X motor oil consistantly shows less wear and tear AT STARTUP (where virtually all of a modern motor's wear happens) over an extended period of time... I will be standing in line to buy it.