Would "the mothership" like to respond to all these 180awhp threads??
Mar 12, 2003, 12:04 PM
#16
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wrong! Dude
Check your sources or speak to Nathan at turboxs. He has specifically said that the EJ20 is between the RX7 and 4G63 in detonation resistance. The 4G63 is the most resistance to detonation damage. The wrx runs a lot richer than the 4G63... AFRs at 10.5 to 10.8 to be safe. 4G63s run alot leaner than that.
However, when properly tuned, the EJ20 motor similar to the RX7 motor can also produce huge amounts of HP. Apples to oranges dude, just as good to eat though.
I just found it funny how the evo ecu is just like the new wrx ecus in their capability to advance or retard timing. man, that means there will be a pretty big variance of HP between evos... It is anyone's luck if they get an engine that makes their ecus happy. For more info regarding adaptive ecus, people should refer to www.nasioc.com for info.
Apparently the evo7 doesn't have this adaptive ecu since Shiv said the JDM one was pinging with 91 octane gas. Maybe you guys could swap to a JDM evo8 ecu and see if timing is adaptive. A direct swap apparently wasn't possible on USDM wrxs, maybe because of AVCS with JDM wrxs and the fact that the JDM motor runs 9:1 compression ratio. But, hey, this is only getting interesting.
It only took the wrx world a year to crack the subaru code.. For those that want to solve their timing issues can look to standalones. Maybe the ecutek guys will be able to solve your problems soon and if ralliart comes out with their stuff now, they would corner the market. Who wants to deal with tuners when the factory stuff is present. I am assuming this because Prodrive does not have the factory codes and rely on ECUtek to re-flash the ecu for their packages as well. Go figure.
This is only getting more interesting when you guys start to uncover the little differences between the JDM version and the USDM version...
nick
Check your sources or speak to Nathan at turboxs. He has specifically said that the EJ20 is between the RX7 and 4G63 in detonation resistance. The 4G63 is the most resistance to detonation damage. The wrx runs a lot richer than the 4G63... AFRs at 10.5 to 10.8 to be safe. 4G63s run alot leaner than that.
However, when properly tuned, the EJ20 motor similar to the RX7 motor can also produce huge amounts of HP. Apples to oranges dude, just as good to eat though.
I just found it funny how the evo ecu is just like the new wrx ecus in their capability to advance or retard timing. man, that means there will be a pretty big variance of HP between evos... It is anyone's luck if they get an engine that makes their ecus happy. For more info regarding adaptive ecus, people should refer to www.nasioc.com for info.
Apparently the evo7 doesn't have this adaptive ecu since Shiv said the JDM one was pinging with 91 octane gas. Maybe you guys could swap to a JDM evo8 ecu and see if timing is adaptive. A direct swap apparently wasn't possible on USDM wrxs, maybe because of AVCS with JDM wrxs and the fact that the JDM motor runs 9:1 compression ratio. But, hey, this is only getting interesting.
It only took the wrx world a year to crack the subaru code.. For those that want to solve their timing issues can look to standalones. Maybe the ecutek guys will be able to solve your problems soon and if ralliart comes out with their stuff now, they would corner the market. Who wants to deal with tuners when the factory stuff is present. I am assuming this because Prodrive does not have the factory codes and rely on ECUtek to re-flash the ecu for their packages as well. Go figure.
This is only getting more interesting when you guys start to uncover the little differences between the JDM version and the USDM version...
nick
Last edited by nicktckhoo; Mar 12, 2003 at 01:18 PM.
Mar 12, 2003, 12:16 PM
#17
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Hi guys,
The other tread has deteriorated a bit so I'll post here...
Given the 271hp claim of Mitsubishi, I expected to see approx 200 wheel on my dyno. I arrived at this number from my experiences with tuned and modified WRX. Our Stage Zero kit for the WRX, for instance, makes approx 200 wheel hp on our dyno. As a result, we rate it for 275 flywheel hp. Our Stage 2 which, similarly, which makes 250 wheel hp, is rated at 340 flywheel hp.
So why is the EVO number lower than expected? Well, I can thing of a few reasons. First, all the motors tested had no more than 700 miles on them. While Mitsu says that only 600 miles of break-in is needed, I'm sure they will loosen up with additional miles. Two, all motors were tested in CA with 91 octane gas. We know from testing that a few extra octane points is worth up to 8 or 9 wheel hp. Furthermore, it is likely that Mitsubishi makes its claims assuming nothing less than the 93 octane fuel most states get. Three, it has been brought to my attention by someone I trust that the EVO drivetrain is likely to induce more driveline loss than that of a Subaru (which is alarmingly elegant by virtue of its flat-four, longitudinal configuration mounted in front of the front wheels).
Add all this stuff up together, jumble it around, wait for the dust to settle, and it's not unreasonable to expect the EVO to read ~20 wheel hp lower than expected. It's just unfortunate that the octane issue might be true since I suspect most EVOs sold in the US will be in CA and run on 91 octane fuel.
Of course, please take the above pontifications as nothing more than a guess based on assumptions. Without additional testing and the feedback from the right folks at Mitsubishi (something I'm working on right now), they are NOT FACT. It is too early in the game to refer to anything as being fact.
Cheers,
shiv
www.vishnutuning.com
The other tread has deteriorated a bit so I'll post here...
Given the 271hp claim of Mitsubishi, I expected to see approx 200 wheel on my dyno. I arrived at this number from my experiences with tuned and modified WRX. Our Stage Zero kit for the WRX, for instance, makes approx 200 wheel hp on our dyno. As a result, we rate it for 275 flywheel hp. Our Stage 2 which, similarly, which makes 250 wheel hp, is rated at 340 flywheel hp.
So why is the EVO number lower than expected? Well, I can thing of a few reasons. First, all the motors tested had no more than 700 miles on them. While Mitsu says that only 600 miles of break-in is needed, I'm sure they will loosen up with additional miles. Two, all motors were tested in CA with 91 octane gas. We know from testing that a few extra octane points is worth up to 8 or 9 wheel hp. Furthermore, it is likely that Mitsubishi makes its claims assuming nothing less than the 93 octane fuel most states get. Three, it has been brought to my attention by someone I trust that the EVO drivetrain is likely to induce more driveline loss than that of a Subaru (which is alarmingly elegant by virtue of its flat-four, longitudinal configuration mounted in front of the front wheels).
Add all this stuff up together, jumble it around, wait for the dust to settle, and it's not unreasonable to expect the EVO to read ~20 wheel hp lower than expected. It's just unfortunate that the octane issue might be true since I suspect most EVOs sold in the US will be in CA and run on 91 octane fuel.
Of course, please take the above pontifications as nothing more than a guess based on assumptions. Without additional testing and the feedback from the right folks at Mitsubishi (something I'm working on right now), they are NOT FACT. It is too early in the game to refer to anything as being fact.
Cheers,
shiv
www.vishnutuning.com
Mar 12, 2003, 12:19 PM
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Originally posted by BADWRX
Tuning forced EFI is tuning forced EFI. Your argument holds no water. Start with forming a good fuel map, and then play with timing to produce the most power without detonation!
I do know that it is most likely that the EJ20 can handle more det without popping than the 4g63. I have read horror stories of the 4g63's blowing up with a very small amount pinging.
Tuning forced EFI is tuning forced EFI. Your argument holds no water. Start with forming a good fuel map, and then play with timing to produce the most power without detonation!
I do know that it is most likely that the EJ20 can handle more det without popping than the 4g63. I have read horror stories of the 4g63's blowing up with a very small amount pinging.
Personally, I think the guys to watch for will be Extreme Motorsports, Buschur Racing, and the other major DSM tuners... If they can get 600+ WHP out of a DSM, there is no reason a EVO can't do the same...
-Cody
Mar 12, 2003, 12:29 PM
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Originally posted by nicktckhoo
He has specifically said that the EJ20 is between the RX7 and 4G63 in detonation resistance. The 4G63 is the most resistance to detonation. The wrx runs a lot richer than the 4G63... AFRs at 10.5 to 10.8 to be safe. 4G63s run alot leaner than that.
He has specifically said that the EJ20 is between the RX7 and 4G63 in detonation resistance. The 4G63 is the most resistance to detonation. The wrx runs a lot richer than the 4G63... AFRs at 10.5 to 10.8 to be safe. 4G63s run alot leaner than that.
Nice to see you here too
FWIW, rotary engines, by virtue of their combustion chamber characteristics are naturally knock resistant. In fact, non turbo rotaries run their best on low octane fuels. Even on turbo rotaries, knock is rare. The problem is, if knock does occur, it tends to break apex seals instantly. The consequences of knock on a rotary is terrible. But the resistance to detonation is actually quite good. As for the EJ motors, they are surprisingly knock-prone. Making matters worse is that, for some reason, they need to run right at the knock threshold to make maximum power. Two degrees retarded from the knock threshold, and they loose *a lot* of power. Subaru knows this and designed an ECU which safely keeps it on the knock threshold all the time through sophisticated adaptive knock correction strategies. This is why we're able to extract more power out of the WRX with a remapped stock ECU than a TEC-3 programmable engine control system. As for the stock EVO, it runs alarmingly rich. Right off the screen. Far richer than a stock WRX from what I've seen on the dyno. This is not surprising considering the 5-9psi more boost it runs (19 vs 14psi at peak and 16 vs 7psi at redline).Just my 2c,
Shiv
www.vishnutuning.com
Mar 12, 2003, 12:44 PM
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Shiv,
But do you lean it out more than the wrx when making the extra 30whp that you were making.. my wrx runs at 10.5:1 what is a possible safe target for the evo. I assume it is ok to run 11:1 and make quite a bit of power.
Man, I can't wait for you to release all your famous kits for the evo.
Thanks for clearing the air here and don't be discouraged by the guys here. This is the first time the evo is here and everyone has very high expectations...realistically or not.
My 1 cent
Nick
But do you lean it out more than the wrx when making the extra 30whp that you were making.. my wrx runs at 10.5:1 what is a possible safe target for the evo. I assume it is ok to run 11:1 and make quite a bit of power.
Man, I can't wait for you to release all your famous kits for the evo.
Thanks for clearing the air here and don't be discouraged by the guys here. This is the first time the evo is here and everyone has very high expectations...realistically or not.
My 1 cent
Nick
Mar 12, 2003, 12:53 PM
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Shiv,
Too bad I already made a substantial investment with the UTEC or I would try out your ecutek to see how it runs on the dyno with midwest gas. BTW, I am making 230whp with your uppipe and a turboxs turboback exhaust.
Be patient guys, SHiv will deliver and you guys will be happy.
Cheers
Nick
Too bad I already made a substantial investment with the UTEC or I would try out your ecutek to see how it runs on the dyno with midwest gas. BTW, I am making 230whp with your uppipe and a turboxs turboback exhaust.
Be patient guys, SHiv will deliver and you guys will be happy.
Cheers
Nick
Mar 12, 2003, 12:54 PM
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Originally posted by nicktckhoo
Check your sources or speak to Nathan at turboxs. He has specifically said that the EJ20 is between the RX7 and 4G63 in detonation resistance. The 4G63 is the most resistance to detonation. nick
Check your sources or speak to Nathan at turboxs. He has specifically said that the EJ20 is between the RX7 and 4G63 in detonation resistance. The 4G63 is the most resistance to detonation. nick
Nick,
if your going to quote me, do it right.
Better yet, don’t quote me…
The 4g63 can stand up to more detonation than either the EJ20 or the 13B. The 13B tends to pop seals when it detonates, and the EJ20 kills rings pretty quickly. On the other hand the 4G63 can live a good bit longer with minor detonation and has enough quench area to make you cream your panties.
-Nathan
Mar 12, 2003, 12:57 PM
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Originally posted by nmyeti
On the other hand the 4G63 can live a good bit longer with minor detonation and has enough quench area to make you cream your panties.
-Nathan
On the other hand the 4G63 can live a good bit longer with minor detonation and has enough quench area to make you cream your panties.
-Nathan
thanks
--bobby
Mar 12, 2003, 01:03 PM
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Originally posted by shiv@vishnu
[B]
FWIW, rotary engines, by virtue of their combustion chamber characteristics are naturally knock resistant. In fact, non turbo rotaries run their best on low octane fuels. Even on turbo rotaries, knock is rare. The problem is, if knock does occur, it tends to break apex seals instantly. The consequences of knock on a rotary is terrible. But the resistance to detonation is actually quite good. As for the EJ motors, they are surprisingly knock-prone.
[B]
FWIW, rotary engines, by virtue of their combustion chamber characteristics are naturally knock resistant. In fact, non turbo rotaries run their best on low octane fuels. Even on turbo rotaries, knock is rare. The problem is, if knock does occur, it tends to break apex seals instantly. The consequences of knock on a rotary is terrible. But the resistance to detonation is actually quite good. As for the EJ motors, they are surprisingly knock-prone.
Nice to see you actually know what you are talking about when it comes to rotaries and the EJ series engine. Not just talking out your *** like some here..
While the EVO ecu can probably pull timming, I have yet to have mine do this. Where my WRX under similar conditions would do it often. So i would say the thresholds are probably better. I look forward to hearing some of your thoughts as you go more indepth..
Thanks for releasing your findings to the community!
-Zach
Mar 12, 2003, 01:09 PM
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Originally posted by BobbyD
hey nathan, what is quench area?
thanks
--bobby
hey nathan, what is quench area?
thanks
--bobby
That's just my amateur stab at it though.