Would "the mothership" like to respond to all these 180awhp threads??
Mar 12, 2003, 09:40 PM
#76
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Originally posted by rdrkt
Shiv: I have no idea why you are using that dyno. They do make AWD dynojets. If I was someone that sold tuning services and turbo packages I would want my numbers to be comparable to everyone else’s. This 17% difference seems bad for business to me.
Speaking as a Vishnu Performance customer and I would rather have a more accurate dyno reading, than an inflated one from a Dynojet.
I speak only for myself but what I look for is relative gain over my baseline numbers. Shiv can tell you what a stock WRX will output at the wheels (quite a variation in the cars he's tested). Vishnu's Stage series kits are rated at measured wheel horsepower, estimated flywheel horsepower, and horsepower improvement over stock. Plotted graphs of Stage kits' dyno runs are available online.
Now that I know what an EVO will do on the (Dyno Dynamics) rollers, I feel good knowing that I've got it covered. At least until Shiv tunes their cars.
--
^ww^
"…axles of evil…" - George W. Bush
Shiv: I have no idea why you are using that dyno. They do make AWD dynojets. If I was someone that sold tuning services and turbo packages I would want my numbers to be comparable to everyone else’s. This 17% difference seems bad for business to me.
Speaking as a Vishnu Performance customer and I would rather have a more accurate dyno reading, than an inflated one from a Dynojet.
I speak only for myself but what I look for is relative gain over my baseline numbers. Shiv can tell you what a stock WRX will output at the wheels (quite a variation in the cars he's tested). Vishnu's Stage series kits are rated at measured wheel horsepower, estimated flywheel horsepower, and horsepower improvement over stock. Plotted graphs of Stage kits' dyno runs are available online.
Now that I know what an EVO will do on the (Dyno Dynamics) rollers, I feel good knowing that I've got it covered. At least until Shiv tunes their cars.
--
^ww^
"…axles of evil…" - George W. Bush
Mar 12, 2003, 09:58 PM
#77
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Mar 12, 2003, 10:03 PM
#78
Originally posted by shirokuma
BTW, Japanese shops like the Super Autobacs use the same dyno that Shiv does. And that's the one where they get the 295-310ps figures for the Evo 7.
This may be hard for people to truly comprehend, but whatever the figures that are being posted from whatever dyno, the most important information is what difference there is between two different cars on the same dyno. The difference between two different dyno's is totally useless for information. If you don't like what Shiv is reporting, don't use it when bragging to your friends.
But understand that tuning is an art and a science, and science relies on cold, hard facts to produce results.
And I do hope this will pry some people loose from their dependence on peak hp numbers. If all that mattered was peak hp, then the RSX and S2000 would be a lot faster than they actually are.
Cheers,
Paul Hansen
BTW, Japanese shops like the Super Autobacs use the same dyno that Shiv does. And that's the one where they get the 295-310ps figures for the Evo 7.
This may be hard for people to truly comprehend, but whatever the figures that are being posted from whatever dyno, the most important information is what difference there is between two different cars on the same dyno. The difference between two different dyno's is totally useless for information. If you don't like what Shiv is reporting, don't use it when bragging to your friends.
But understand that tuning is an art and a science, and science relies on cold, hard facts to produce results.
And I do hope this will pry some people loose from their dependence on peak hp numbers. If all that mattered was peak hp, then the RSX and S2000 would be a lot faster than they actually are.
Cheers,
Paul Hansen
PS - WRX's can have up to 10 - 15 hp variation in HP one dyno pull to the other even on the same dyno on the same day with no other changes - the ecu does funny things
Mar 13, 2003, 01:21 AM
#79
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With all this talk of HP let's not forget the torque. I'm in the car business and HP sells cars, but torque wins races.
Getting back to the subject, the enigma of the dyno can be solved from the example of snipers. They always record the rifle they are using, ammunition, temperature, humidity, and visibility. This information is then recorded on to a log book. When finally deployed on a mission, they will go through the log book trying to find simliar conditions to know what would work best.
Bottom line: Apples to apples. If you use Shivs method (the one I recommend) stick with it. Don't let numbers get in the way of true tuning. 180 to Shiv and 250 to someone else's dyno is probably the same thing although Shiv is more accurate. Shiv's method is accurate, thorough and comprehensive a lot like a sniper's technique. As I mentioned before Gary Sheehan (Team SDR) trusts his numbers and technique. Who is Gary Sheehan? If you don't know, why are you interested in the EVO?
Information can only compared to the same dyno under the same conditions.
Getting back to the subject, the enigma of the dyno can be solved from the example of snipers. They always record the rifle they are using, ammunition, temperature, humidity, and visibility. This information is then recorded on to a log book. When finally deployed on a mission, they will go through the log book trying to find simliar conditions to know what would work best.
Bottom line: Apples to apples. If you use Shivs method (the one I recommend) stick with it. Don't let numbers get in the way of true tuning. 180 to Shiv and 250 to someone else's dyno is probably the same thing although Shiv is more accurate. Shiv's method is accurate, thorough and comprehensive a lot like a sniper's technique. As I mentioned before Gary Sheehan (Team SDR) trusts his numbers and technique. Who is Gary Sheehan? If you don't know, why are you interested in the EVO?
Information can only compared to the same dyno under the same conditions.
Mar 13, 2003, 02:28 AM
#80
To the naysayers, ClubDSM guys, or other members who are throwing red flags at the 180HP numbers-
While I appreciate that some of you are accustomed to dynojet/dynapack numbers and aren't used to the "lower" numbers that Vishnu's dyno produces, will you please stop the threadjacking?
We all understand the fact the 4G63 makes great power with mods in DSMs. Obviously the Evo brings much more impressive OEM hardware (bigger turbo, bigger injectors, FMIC) to the table than the DSMs and WRX did when they were released in this country. The clearly different variable, however, is that US Spec Evolution has an all new ECU for our market, hence some of the debate and definitely the reason for the lower measured power output than its high octane drinking Japanese sibling. If you'll pause and allow all the data to come in, then at least you can make your comments after all the tuning methods to the ECU have been disclosed. Until then, stop arguing and listen to what Shiv has yet say.. pretty please?
I'd love it if we could keep this thread technical and leave all the debating and attitudes elsewhere. I for one would like more answers and info to keep coming in. I'd prefer to not have to sift through another 20 page thread that is 90% arguing and 10% tech, due to threadjackers and angry DSM drivers.
While I appreciate that some of you are accustomed to dynojet/dynapack numbers and aren't used to the "lower" numbers that Vishnu's dyno produces, will you please stop the threadjacking?
We all understand the fact the 4G63 makes great power with mods in DSMs. Obviously the Evo brings much more impressive OEM hardware (bigger turbo, bigger injectors, FMIC) to the table than the DSMs and WRX did when they were released in this country. The clearly different variable, however, is that US Spec Evolution has an all new ECU for our market, hence some of the debate and definitely the reason for the lower measured power output than its high octane drinking Japanese sibling. If you'll pause and allow all the data to come in, then at least you can make your comments after all the tuning methods to the ECU have been disclosed. Until then, stop arguing and listen to what Shiv has yet say.. pretty please?
I'd love it if we could keep this thread technical and leave all the debating and attitudes elsewhere. I for one would like more answers and info to keep coming in. I'd prefer to not have to sift through another 20 page thread that is 90% arguing and 10% tech, due to threadjackers and angry DSM drivers.
Mar 13, 2003, 02:58 AM
#81
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Amen 
Does stock numbers really matter to tuners? How many people who have the Evo and know the engine's capabilities are actually keep the car in its stock form. I know that most of the WRX and DSM people don't drive stock cars for that matter, so these numbers are meaning less. Get off the base number figures and lets modding the Evo once products are availible here in the US. Those are the dyno results i'd like to see. I think it would be more benificial to know what mods give good hp gains and what don't.
Does stock numbers really matter to tuners? How many people who have the Evo and know the engine's capabilities are actually keep the car in its stock form. I know that most of the WRX and DSM people don't drive stock cars for that matter, so these numbers are meaning less. Get off the base number figures and lets modding the Evo once products are availible here in the US. Those are the dyno results i'd like to see. I think it would be more benificial to know what mods give good hp gains and what don't.
Mar 13, 2003, 08:22 AM
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Originally posted by Noize
To the naysayers, ClubDSM guys, or other members who are throwing red flags at the 180HP numbers-
While I appreciate that some of you are accustomed to dynojet/dynapack numbers and aren't used to the "lower" numbers that Vishnu's dyno produces, will you please stop the threadjacking?
To the naysayers, ClubDSM guys, or other members who are throwing red flags at the 180HP numbers-
While I appreciate that some of you are accustomed to dynojet/dynapack numbers and aren't used to the "lower" numbers that Vishnu's dyno produces, will you please stop the threadjacking?
For you WRX guys who think they know all about the Evo already because it 'shares' a 4 cylinder AWD layout with your car--well, you haven't a clue. The DSM guys KNOW how modding and tuning should work with the Evo. AMS is already making great progress. Buschur will be in the game soon. Hopefully some of the other DSM shops will get in the business so that the Evo world isn't saddled with a bunch of underachieving, overpriced Vishnu staged upgrade cars running around. I'd like to see RRE and Forced Performance join the fray, along with AGP and Magnus Motorsports.
All of us [the DSM guys--from another board] have been laughing at the nonsense some of you guys spew when you act like this Vishnu shop has a clue what they're doing. Quit trying to reinvent the wheel. We know how the 4G63 makes power, and when in the hands of some of the great DSM shops, and some of the fast DSM owners, you will see some very fast Evos, very soon.
Last edited by Hor; Mar 13, 2003 at 08:25 AM.
Mar 13, 2003, 09:06 AM
#83
Originally posted by uranium9v
Keep it up guys....soon Vishnu won't even come around the board anymore.....(Vishnu, just start a new thread and leave these complainers to their complaining)
Keep it up guys....soon Vishnu won't even come around the board anymore.....(Vishnu, just start a new thread and leave these complainers to their complaining)
waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaIll race any car that you tune. If it makes 200, ill make 200 and then we race. How about that?
Mar 13, 2003, 09:20 AM
#85
Originally posted by uranium9v
Input from any tuner is good....we aren't close minded on this board...I knew this would happen as soon as the EVO came out.....
Input from any tuner is good....we aren't close minded on this board...I knew this would happen as soon as the EVO came out.....
Pruven Performance
Turbo Trix
BM Tranny
Buschur Racing
Magnus Motorsports
AMS
Shep Racing
Forced Performance
Altered Atmosphere
Extreme motorsports
I can add more if you like.
Bottom line, what I see is, Vishnu is right and the top racers in the coutry are wrong or put out wrong information.
Hmmmmm..
When everyone is saying your crazy, and you think you are not, guess what, your INSANE!
Mar 13, 2003, 10:42 AM
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GaryChios - dude, your a little hardcore, drink a and chill a little. I am not a Vishnu supporter and have never seen or used any of his parts. he is a tuner and has a vast knowledge of the TEC ECU system, from what I understand. he is a knowledge junkie and loves to dyno cars repeatedly for fun. he might not be the person you want to purchase parts from or work on your car, that's you choice. he has dyno'd a couple of Evolutions and post his results. it will be OK, we all know the car can produce power. 
and chill a little. I am not a Vishnu supporter and have never seen or used any of his parts. he is a tuner and has a vast knowledge of the TEC ECU system, from what I understand. he is a knowledge junkie and loves to dyno cars repeatedly for fun. he might not be the person you want to purchase parts from or work on your car, that's you choice. he has dyno'd a couple of Evolutions and post his results. it will be OK, we all know the car can produce power.
Mar 13, 2003, 11:27 AM
#87
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Originally posted by GaryChios
I am not saying your cars are any lesser, but we know 4g63's.
I am not saying your cars are any lesser, but we know 4g63's.
again, I don't really like Vishnu's parts, but I do respect him for what he tries to provide.
TurboXS > Vishnu
Mar 13, 2003, 11:33 AM
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DSM VS SUBARU? Who cares? For those who want a 1/4 mile car, more power to you! I have been waiting for the complete package for years.
Had a Supra TT fun all around car BUT no room for the new kid. The EVO and STI will be great cars (normal wrx is moddable). Its like some of you should get a nice cheese to go with you're WINE-ing. Be thankful that we are getting info for free. If you do not like it, get the F*** off you're computer and do somthing worth while!!!!!
Had a Supra TT fun all around car BUT no room for the new kid. The EVO and STI will be great cars (normal wrx is moddable). Its like some of you should get a nice cheese to go with you're WINE-ing. Be thankful that we are getting info for free. If you do not like it, get the F*** off you're computer and do somthing worth while!!!!!
Mar 13, 2003, 11:35 AM
#89
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All this drama that Vishnu put out is really getting them good publicity lol
It's on basically every car forum about how the EVO sucks cause it dynoed at 180
Something to ponder
It's on basically every car forum about how the EVO sucks cause it dynoed at 180
Something to ponder
Mar 13, 2003, 11:57 AM
#90
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Originally posted by KavMan
All this drama that Vishnu put out is really getting them good publicity lol
It's on basically every car forum about how the EVO sucks cause it dynoed at 180
Something to ponder
All this drama that Vishnu put out is really getting them good publicity lol
It's on basically every car forum about how the EVO sucks cause it dynoed at 180
Something to ponder