shiv@vishnu

iTrader: (20)

Just to add fuel to the fire, a couple of months ago, we hosted a Bay Area DSM dyno day. We dyno tested 16 modified DSMs (bigger turbos, injectors, AFC, EBC, road-tuned, etc,.) in one day. Only one broke 200 wheel hp (293 to be exact). And the rest were in the 150-170 wheel hp range with one Galant VR-4 making 194 wheel hp.

The 293 wheel hp Talon belonds to the tech next door to us and was the only one that was dyno tuned. Some statisticians out there in internet land may claim sampling bias but I think there is more to it than that.

Cheers,
shiv

broeli

iTrader: (19)

Dyno tuning is the best way to get maximum hp, plain and simple. I have done both..tuned cars with and without the dyno. Just as an example a self tuned 5.0 Mustang put out 272rwhp when put on the "Mustang dyno". It was self tuned using 1/4 mile run times. When put on the dyno and tuned using chipmaster software it was an easy 303hp tune. It was simply running too rich and the timing and fuel curve needed optimized throughout the powerband. Not a bad horsepower gain for $250.

shirokuma

Ok - but have you actually made all the power your engine can? You can't answer that without doing dyno tuning. You personally have reached your limit, but there are a lot of people that won't go as far as you, but want to get all they can, at all rpm's, out of their engine. I don't see how you can do that without a dyno to give you actual results.

And I don't consider quarter-mile times to be the only answer, because there are some people that drive on the street, race track with curves, or autocross that are going to be looking for different types of power curves.

Cheers,

Paul Hansen

ShapeGSX

I have friends who have never dyno tuned who are running low 11s in the 1/4mi at over 125mph. One of them dynoed his car on a Dyno Dynamics dyno (Adrenaline Motorsports) and pulled 370hp on it. Again, he didn't tune his car on the dyno, he was just looking for a number. It was the highest number the place had ever seen. The next highest was a single turbo Supra, which made around 350hp. Frankly the numbers didn't make any sense.

I have no doubt that a dyno session could make his car faster, if HE was the one setting the fuel and timing. But I wouldn't trust any shop to set his fuel and timing, especially if it was the first time they saw the car.

If you just did a ton of mods to your car all at once (idiotic...never change more than one thing at a time), then yeah, take it to a shop to tune it. They have just as much a clue as you would. But if you are methodical about modifications, and know what you are doing, YOU know your car. You know what is best for it. You should be the one to tune it. The dyno shop isn't going to be at the track to hold your hand when you dump in some different spec race fuel than you dynoed on and turn up the boost. And that single chip setting they gave you won't help you in that case, either. User adjustability is the key.

I'd say that 80% of DSM owners know this, have learned how to tune on their own and with community support, and tune their own vehicles. And look at the outcome: http://times.dsm.org/

It sure is hard to argue with that success.

If I wanted to tune for max power and torque on pump gas, I know I have the tools to do so. Paul, look up www.dsmlink.com and see the tools I have at my disposal. The datalogger outputs torque and horsepower. It gives you the A:F ratio. It datalogs boost. And I tune for minimal knock at all RPMs. I avoid sharp rises/falls in timing or fuel. And I have the factory fuel and timing maps to build upon. It really doesn't get much better than that.

shirokuma

The information is out there, is easy to find, and thus there's no reason to slam anybody that would rather use a tuner. I'm not saying that you cannot do it yourself. But if that community didn't exist, would the DSM's, overall, be as fast as they are now? And is it possible that some of the information that is being used to make those fast DSM's may have come from people using a dyno? And that it may have come from currently reviled tuners? All evidence I have seen points towards the fact that using a dyno will maximize your results. Some people, for whom time=money, and who won't be changing their setup after they've installed it, are quite happy to go with tuners.

I think that's the point, actually - you are coming at this from a drag-racing perspective. In fact, that's why you are into DSM's at all. Take a moment to ponder the thought that a lot of Evo owners are probably not going to drag race, other than at stoplights. Thus tuning objectives that are important to you, or the DSM community at large, are not going to be important to them.

In fact, I think that's the whole purpose behind spending 30+grand for a new car with high-performance from the factory, vs. just buying a used DSM for cheap and building a 11sec car for a 3rd of the cost.

Cheers,

Paul Hansen

GPTourer

Okay, so what?

I don't understand the point of this post. Your supporters who are mostly WRX brethren are doing the best they can to establish you as a worthy tuner of high powered cars, no matter what symbol they have on the hood. Yet on two occasions you make comments that seem to demean the people you are trying to gain respect from, in order for them to do business with you, as in DSM owners and EVO owners. Statements like "if I see another DSM with a...will puke." or "Just to add fuel to the fire..." do not make me (a potential customer) want to come do business with you. Right now my car probably does not make 200whp, and an S-AFC is a product that I am interested in, so it disgusts you in some way?

The world is aware that DSM's are fast. The DSM community does not need to be lauded or proven on your dyno and your shop to realize that they can make lots of power. There a few 8 and 9 sec examples and plenty of 10 and 11 second ones, so who cares that you came across a string of weak ones?

If you are truly just a enthustaist of fast cars that wants to exploit the ability of a new platform then just do the work and post results and leave out all the snide comments. They don't help.

ShapeGSX

Actually, Paul, I think you forget that I autox and daily drive my car, too.

Noize

iTrader: (24)

This is really getting silly. All the snide comments came from your comrades in the DSM peanut gallery first, and they were MUCH uglier than the ones you just offered.

The main two WRX guys who have risen to Shiv's defense in this thread don't even have any Vishnu parts on their cars! They are both completely homegrown cars, like most of the DSMs in this thread, following no set mod path, except the opinions and the budget of the owners. I've had this current car for less than a year, but it has done pretty well for me so far. I'm still stuck in the 13s, because I'm still using the lackluster OEM 13B turbo. I've upgraded steadily as I am able financially, but the turbo replacement is going to take me a little bit, as the next series of upgrades is going to cost more. I also intend to do my own tuning, because there isn't a suitable AWD dyno near me.

If I had direct access to a shop/dyno like Shiv's, I'd pay as a customer to use it in a heartbeat.

shiv@vishnu

iTrader: (20)

Perhaps you misunderstood my intention. The point of both comments was to point out that dyno tuning actually helps. And similarly, so does proper engine management. I didn't mean any disrespect towards anything but road-only tuning and simple fuel computers. I apologize if you fall into either one of those catagories.

Best Regards,
shiv

MSD

Wow...

I've been a casual observer here for some time and it's quite odd what I'm seeing in this thread. Paul & Shiv are pretty much respected in other areas of the internet... it's ashame to see this.

Anyway, I can tell you the idiots that live a "1/4 at a time" are creating nothing but noise with their imature slander. I guess since they can post a low 1/4 time in their sig (and even a video) means they think they are the "bomb".

Let me know when it's ok for me to be impressed.

MSD

Butt Dyno

iTrader: (10)

I'd just like to throw out there that not all of us want to learn things the hard way... dyno tuning your car with someone who does this stuff for a living, discussing ideas, etc etc, you can learn plenty that way, without having to shatter two transmissions learning how to tune. You feel like less of a tough guy, though.

-bd

Hor

As do the big shops here. As do people with fast cars here. A 13 second car doesn't need a $1000 'tooning' session to be a 13 second car and stay reliable.

It's a thread about making power. Deal with it. My car is a daily driver, so it's not like it's just tuned for 1/4 mile performance.

It's highly unlikely that I'll drive 3/4 of the way across the country to deliver my pleasantries.

I feel sad. Almost.