The EVO vs. STi is the same as the Supra against the 300ZX TT!
Nov 8, 2005 | 04:00 PM
#31
Evolved Member
iTrader: (7)
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,252
Likes: 0
From: Del Monte Beach, Monterey, CA
I dont know why everything has to be about drag racing.. its like every time something about the evos peformance comes up its like.. well you can run 9s without breaking an axle.. last time I checked the evo was a rally car, not a drag/muscle car.. It was never intended to do things that people are doing with it.. yet still it does it well. Instead, I like to focus on the fact that this car, when properly setup.. can be an absolute monster on the road course.. even with a relatively inexperienced driver behind the wheel.. and seems to be pretty reliable in these applications. I constantly the faster vipers braking and being pushed around the course.. hmm a picture says a thousand worlds I guess.. ones super faster speed world challenge viper being pushed down the corkscrew while the evo prevails.
Sti is a great car.. dont see how anyone can put it down. Maybe if your talking about getting into racing though? the evo is a better platform.. but for reason like its easy to make power with and work on.. tons of aftermarket support etc.. If i was going to buy either of the cars and leave it stock, Id probably own the STi.
Sti is a great car.. dont see how anyone can put it down. Maybe if your talking about getting into racing though? the evo is a better platform.. but for reason like its easy to make power with and work on.. tons of aftermarket support etc.. If i was going to buy either of the cars and leave it stock, Id probably own the STi.
Nov 8, 2005 | 04:29 PM
#34
Newbie
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Jasil well put.
I kind of dont agree with WrxtoEvo but maybe because i am a supra owner. To say a car that can put down those kind of numbers is nothing special is silly. But I guess people could say the same about a EVO or STI etc... People always say well you got 3.0liters and I only have 2. Or the domestic guys say well you have a turbo and I dont...Hell thats what it came with from the factory so what. I really dont think its good to compare the cars. AWD vs RWD - 4Dr Sedan vs GT tourer etc. I compare the supra to cars of its era like the RX-7, 300ZXTT, Corvette. The only thing I really agree on is the power plants. Both are very strong and proven to put the numbers down easily.
The STI in stock form vs a Stock EVO is very equal. The STI will get a nod because of its low end tq. But the EVO gets a nod for is high end pull. The biggest reason we here in the states dont see STIs with the same potental is because of time. The 4g63 has been used here and tested and developed for quite some time and the STIs 2.5liter engine hasnt. Now I know the 2.5 in the STI is close to the 2.0 liter in some respects but subaru did some different thing when it came to engine management. (Drive by Wire) I owned a 04 STI and really loved it for what it was. I didnt mod it really loved how it performed. I compared it to my supra when i got it, completly stock of course as far as speed and performance.
Do I think the Evo has more support than the STI? yes
Do I think the Evo has a higher number of cars that put down higher numbers than the STI? yes
Do I think it is just as easy to make the same power in modded Evo as a STI? no
Only time will tell about the STI. I think it will prove to be a equal with the EVO. Who would have thought of making the kind of power in a supra 7-9 years ago that is being made now.(or even a 4g63)
Hell i can remember about 4-6 years ago when 500-650 in a street driven supra was amazing and average for a nice single turbo car. Now sheesh 500-600 is pump gas numbers @16psi and the average i am now seeing on race fuel is upper 800s. With stroker kits for the 2JZ it is even getting higher because only a handfull of people could afford them a long time ago. This is just like the 4g63, it has just kept evolving making more power.
my 2psi
I kind of dont agree with WrxtoEvo but maybe because i am a supra owner. To say a car that can put down those kind of numbers is nothing special is silly. But I guess people could say the same about a EVO or STI etc... People always say well you got 3.0liters and I only have 2. Or the domestic guys say well you have a turbo and I dont...Hell thats what it came with from the factory so what. I really dont think its good to compare the cars. AWD vs RWD - 4Dr Sedan vs GT tourer etc. I compare the supra to cars of its era like the RX-7, 300ZXTT, Corvette. The only thing I really agree on is the power plants. Both are very strong and proven to put the numbers down easily.
The STI in stock form vs a Stock EVO is very equal. The STI will get a nod because of its low end tq. But the EVO gets a nod for is high end pull. The biggest reason we here in the states dont see STIs with the same potental is because of time. The 4g63 has been used here and tested and developed for quite some time and the STIs 2.5liter engine hasnt. Now I know the 2.5 in the STI is close to the 2.0 liter in some respects but subaru did some different thing when it came to engine management. (Drive by Wire) I owned a 04 STI and really loved it for what it was. I didnt mod it really loved how it performed. I compared it to my supra when i got it, completly stock of course as far as speed and performance.
Do I think the Evo has more support than the STI? yes
Do I think the Evo has a higher number of cars that put down higher numbers than the STI? yes
Do I think it is just as easy to make the same power in modded Evo as a STI? no
Only time will tell about the STI. I think it will prove to be a equal with the EVO. Who would have thought of making the kind of power in a supra 7-9 years ago that is being made now.(or even a 4g63)
Hell i can remember about 4-6 years ago when 500-650 in a street driven supra was amazing and average for a nice single turbo car. Now sheesh 500-600 is pump gas numbers @16psi and the average i am now seeing on race fuel is upper 800s. With stroker kits for the 2JZ it is even getting higher because only a handfull of people could afford them a long time ago. This is just like the 4g63, it has just kept evolving making more power.
my 2psi
Nov 8, 2005 | 04:40 PM
#35
Originally Posted by Jasil
I'm a EVO fan....I just bought a 05' on saturday past, but Supras are much more reliable at the track when your running big numbers in the hp dept. WOTM for instance made over 20 passes in the low 9's@155-160mph with NO BREAKAGE AT ALL. He is just one example and it shows the benefit of RWD in a drag format.
Even the best AMS, TT, Pruven, Al have gone through halfshafts, diffs, all have built trans now, so to run a AWD drivetrain and even be halfway reliable is big money...vs the many many stock 6sp, diff, shafts etc that many supras run.
Shep trans with front diff 3K+
Driveshop axles 1K+
Exedy clutch 2K+
and AMS is still breaking these axles and they are the toughest ones made. I love AWD, but having 6K+ in your driveline and knowing that any launch could break a part is frustrating. Almost like the rotorheads that swear you can make 500rwhp reliable on a 13b....it's being done and even much more than 500rwhp, but on any run that sucker could pop....it's frustrating.
Lastly, and my book is finished, I'm a 4g63 freak, but in the end a 3.0 will put down 50% more power. There are no magic 2.0 or magic 3.0 it's all physics and money. They have 1000hp 2.0's, 1500hp 3.0's, 2000hp 4.6 stangs it's all relative to your pocket book.
EVO's rule though.
Even the best AMS, TT, Pruven, Al have gone through halfshafts, diffs, all have built trans now, so to run a AWD drivetrain and even be halfway reliable is big money...vs the many many stock 6sp, diff, shafts etc that many supras run.
Shep trans with front diff 3K+
Driveshop axles 1K+
Exedy clutch 2K+
and AMS is still breaking these axles and they are the toughest ones made. I love AWD, but having 6K+ in your driveline and knowing that any launch could break a part is frustrating. Almost like the rotorheads that swear you can make 500rwhp reliable on a 13b....it's being done and even much more than 500rwhp, but on any run that sucker could pop....it's frustrating.
Lastly, and my book is finished, I'm a 4g63 freak, but in the end a 3.0 will put down 50% more power. There are no magic 2.0 or magic 3.0 it's all physics and money. They have 1000hp 2.0's, 1500hp 3.0's, 2000hp 4.6 stangs it's all relative to your pocket book.
EVO's rule though.
Their car is a great acchievement of power, around 1300hp to the engine but the car is always brought to the track in a trailer, always has to run c16 or c22 gas wich is $15 plus dollar a galon then all the preparation for each you, the burning tires the tweking and all that.
The WOTM Supra does 1.3 or 1.4 60' but on huge slicks. Take the slicks away, run 91OCT and run the stock Twin Turbos and the WOTM supra is on EVO territory..
Nov 8, 2005 | 04:49 PM
#36
The reason why STi is always playing catch up with Evo is becoz simply Evo was going thru longer cycles
STi only started as a GC8 GDA GDB
while Evo went thru CD9A CE9A CN9A CP9A CT9A
excluded their effort as a galant VR4 before evolution is born
not much has change at mitsu
STi only started as a GC8 GDA GDB
while Evo went thru CD9A CE9A CN9A CP9A CT9A
excluded their effort as a galant VR4 before evolution is born
not much has change at mitsu
Nov 8, 2005 | 04:52 PM
#37
Originally Posted by fevo
The reason why STi is always playing catch up with Evo is becoz simply Evo was going thru longer cycles
STi only started as a GC8 GDA GDB
while Evo went thru CD9A CE9A CN9A CP9A CT9A
excluded their effort as a galant VR4 before evolution is born
not much has change at mitsu
STi only started as a GC8 GDA GDB
while Evo went thru CD9A CE9A CN9A CP9A CT9A
excluded their effort as a galant VR4 before evolution is born
not much has change at mitsu
Nov 8, 2005 | 05:04 PM
#38
Mad TKD,
You made the point, yes the manufacturer made the cars like that, the Supra with the 3.0 and the Evo with a 2.0.
I don't even want to imagine the unreal brutality of power than a EVO engine could make with a stock 3.0 block. Think about it, the 2.2l and 2.3l strokers on a Evo makes them very fast.
The previous Supra 3.0 single turbo was in my opinion one of the biggest mechanical disasters in the history of automotion. The European magazine Automovil tested a 3.0liter automatic and got a mid 10sec 0-60mph, that is disastrous!!
Like you say, there is no comparison, the Evo is a 2.0l 4 door sedan and it does not have a bigger engine because Mitsubishi takes the proud to compite in the wold rally championship class wich is limited to 2.0 liters.
I just leave it to eveyone imagination to think of a Evo 3.0 liter engine. As it is the 2.0 l engine talks face to face with 400hp cars already.
I somehow find a good analogy on the Evo and the Supra. Both cars are fitted with engines capable of producing great HP numbers. They both react very well to mods.
Last but not least, yeah, you were correct, the Supra is impressive when properly modded and yes making a Supra that makes 1300hp is a great achievement..
You made the point, yes the manufacturer made the cars like that, the Supra with the 3.0 and the Evo with a 2.0.
I don't even want to imagine the unreal brutality of power than a EVO engine could make with a stock 3.0 block. Think about it, the 2.2l and 2.3l strokers on a Evo makes them very fast.
The previous Supra 3.0 single turbo was in my opinion one of the biggest mechanical disasters in the history of automotion. The European magazine Automovil tested a 3.0liter automatic and got a mid 10sec 0-60mph, that is disastrous!!
Like you say, there is no comparison, the Evo is a 2.0l 4 door sedan and it does not have a bigger engine because Mitsubishi takes the proud to compite in the wold rally championship class wich is limited to 2.0 liters.
I just leave it to eveyone imagination to think of a Evo 3.0 liter engine. As it is the 2.0 l engine talks face to face with 400hp cars already.
I somehow find a good analogy on the Evo and the Supra. Both cars are fitted with engines capable of producing great HP numbers. They both react very well to mods.
Last but not least, yeah, you were correct, the Supra is impressive when properly modded and yes making a Supra that makes 1300hp is a great achievement..
Nov 8, 2005 | 05:17 PM
#39
Evolved Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,206
Likes: 0
From: Frederick, Maryland
Originally Posted by Jasil
I'm a EVO fan....I just bought a 05' on saturday past, but Supras are much more reliable at the track when your running big numbers in the hp dept. WOTM for instance made over 20 passes in the low 9's@155-160mph with NO BREAKAGE AT ALL. He is just one example and it shows the benefit of RWD in a drag format.
Even the best AMS, TT, Pruven, Al have gone through halfshafts, diffs, all have built trans now, so to run a AWD drivetrain and even be halfway reliable is big money...vs the many many stock 6sp, diff, shafts etc that many supras run.
Shep trans with front diff 3K+
Driveshop axles 1K+
Exedy clutch 2K+
and AMS is still breaking these axles and they are the toughest ones made. I love AWD, but having 6K+ in your driveline and knowing that any launch could break a part is frustrating. Almost like the rotorheads that swear you can make 500rwhp reliable on a 13b....it's being done and even much more than 500rwhp, but on any run that sucker could pop....it's frustrating.
Lastly, and my book is finished, I'm a 4g63 freak, but in the end a 3.0 will put down 50% more power. There are no magic 2.0 or magic 3.0 it's all physics and money. They have 1000hp 2.0's, 1500hp 3.0's, 2000hp 4.6 stangs it's all relative to your pocket book.
EVO's rule though.
Even the best AMS, TT, Pruven, Al have gone through halfshafts, diffs, all have built trans now, so to run a AWD drivetrain and even be halfway reliable is big money...vs the many many stock 6sp, diff, shafts etc that many supras run.
Shep trans with front diff 3K+
Driveshop axles 1K+
Exedy clutch 2K+
and AMS is still breaking these axles and they are the toughest ones made. I love AWD, but having 6K+ in your driveline and knowing that any launch could break a part is frustrating. Almost like the rotorheads that swear you can make 500rwhp reliable on a 13b....it's being done and even much more than 500rwhp, but on any run that sucker could pop....it's frustrating.
Lastly, and my book is finished, I'm a 4g63 freak, but in the end a 3.0 will put down 50% more power. There are no magic 2.0 or magic 3.0 it's all physics and money. They have 1000hp 2.0's, 1500hp 3.0's, 2000hp 4.6 stangs it's all relative to your pocket book.
EVO's rule though.
I don't think a lot of people have any clue of the shock that goes through an AWD system. You could have the strongest axles in the world, and you'll still break parts.
What I've actually heard in the case of some Supras running big numbers is that they swap in a GM 12 bolt, or a Ford 9-inch. Undoubtedly, some of the strongest rears out there, but even they aren't always up to the task....
Nov 8, 2005 | 05:53 PM
#40
Thread Starter
Evolved Member
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 633
Likes: 0
From: Okinawa, Japan
Originally Posted by Sinister Subaru
You're exactly right.
I don't think a lot of people have any clue of the shock that goes through an AWD system. You could have the strongest axles in the world, and you'll still break parts.
What I've actually heard in the case of some Supras running big numbers is that they swap in a GM 12 bolt, or a Ford 9-inch. Undoubtedly, some of the strongest rears out there, but even they aren't always up to the task....
I don't think a lot of people have any clue of the shock that goes through an AWD system. You could have the strongest axles in the world, and you'll still break parts.
What I've actually heard in the case of some Supras running big numbers is that they swap in a GM 12 bolt, or a Ford 9-inch. Undoubtedly, some of the strongest rears out there, but even they aren't always up to the task....
-Nate
Nov 8, 2005 | 06:18 PM
#41
Newbie
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
I see your points WRXtoEVO.
The displacement issues is well valid. But if it was that easy I imagine that it would have been done by Mitsu or Toyota. Some of the supra guys have toyed with the idea of a 4.0 liter v-8 twin turbo(out of the lexus) or a using the 4.0 liter straight six out of the land cruiser. But that is kinda uncharted land and really is expensive to produce. What we have works. For instance raising the displacement to a 3 liter in a EVO if possible would have gains and losses. Gains would be better low end TQ, spool and power of course. But losses would be lower redline because of piston speeds.
Anytime you put a cars power output to more than double(which is seems to be the norm with ours cars) things will break. I have blown a clutch that shredded my transmission. I have seen numerous axles and diffs blown also. Its just part of going faster.
We all know every car has a weak point when it comes to upping the power
Sinister Subaru:
To my knowledge there are no supras being run with a GM or Ford rear end. Titan, WOTM and most all the others run the upgraded TRD rear end which is better. Most who blow the stock rear end blow it because they dont pre load it before launching it which places way to much shock on the diff and axles at launch. There are some like Titan that switched to the TH400 auto transmission though for consistancy.
My 2psi
The displacement issues is well valid. But if it was that easy I imagine that it would have been done by Mitsu or Toyota. Some of the supra guys have toyed with the idea of a 4.0 liter v-8 twin turbo(out of the lexus) or a using the 4.0 liter straight six out of the land cruiser. But that is kinda uncharted land and really is expensive to produce. What we have works. For instance raising the displacement to a 3 liter in a EVO if possible would have gains and losses. Gains would be better low end TQ, spool and power of course. But losses would be lower redline because of piston speeds.
Anytime you put a cars power output to more than double(which is seems to be the norm with ours cars) things will break. I have blown a clutch that shredded my transmission. I have seen numerous axles and diffs blown also. Its just part of going faster.
We all know every car has a weak point when it comes to upping the power
Sinister Subaru:
To my knowledge there are no supras being run with a GM or Ford rear end. Titan, WOTM and most all the others run the upgraded TRD rear end which is better. Most who blow the stock rear end blow it because they dont pre load it before launching it which places way to much shock on the diff and axles at launch. There are some like Titan that switched to the TH400 auto transmission though for consistancy.
My 2psi
Nov 8, 2005 | 10:03 PM
#42
I've driven all four cars and I'll tell you that its not a great comparison based on my experience because the 300ZX doesnt even touch the Supra while STi vs. EVO is still somewhat debateable. somewhat.
Nov 9, 2005 | 12:27 AM
#43
Evolved Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,206
Likes: 0
From: Frederick, Maryland
Originally Posted by EVO-8-Nate
The 300ZX TT had a 230mm rear end. That equates to just under 9.1". It was very much capable of all the HP you threw at it.
-Nate
-Nate
Nov 9, 2005 | 02:54 AM
#44
i would say this is true... i think the stis are suffering quite a bit... my friend wanted to get one and i was looking at stuff for the stis... so limited.
where do you pick up a decent ti exhaust?
where do you have a place that makes custom spec sus parts that WORK and are TRACK PROVEN?
all the wheel sizes are for wussies with like +40 offets, where are the super widebodies, i mean honestly there are very few suby spokescars... i think every shop that does evo stuff has an evo... i don't think for one that there are that many suby shops and i don't think they all have suby shopcars. i mean look at br they already have two... rre has two... ams has one of their own and a customer car that is just as good as theirs... etc etc etc...
the thing is... technically in all technical respects... the sti should be a better car. the spec c in japan has proven that it CAN be a better car... but what the heck happened to all the other models. why so much anti dive tuning that you get the horrid understeer. why so little concern in sus tuning market to get it out. is there a john mueller of subies?
also... i think the suby is such an off the shelf car... everything is off the shelf... the evo is an innovator's car... we have so many gadgets... from the craig hardy panel to buschu's external wastegate... to works' 3" o2 housing... we're makin' all this cool stuff for evos.... i think the coolest thing for the suby is the defi gauge hood and that's off the shelf...
where do you pick up a decent ti exhaust?
where do you have a place that makes custom spec sus parts that WORK and are TRACK PROVEN?
all the wheel sizes are for wussies with like +40 offets, where are the super widebodies, i mean honestly there are very few suby spokescars... i think every shop that does evo stuff has an evo... i don't think for one that there are that many suby shops and i don't think they all have suby shopcars. i mean look at br they already have two... rre has two... ams has one of their own and a customer car that is just as good as theirs... etc etc etc...
the thing is... technically in all technical respects... the sti should be a better car. the spec c in japan has proven that it CAN be a better car... but what the heck happened to all the other models. why so much anti dive tuning that you get the horrid understeer. why so little concern in sus tuning market to get it out. is there a john mueller of subies?
also... i think the suby is such an off the shelf car... everything is off the shelf... the evo is an innovator's car... we have so many gadgets... from the craig hardy panel to buschu's external wastegate... to works' 3" o2 housing... we're makin' all this cool stuff for evos.... i think the coolest thing for the suby is the defi gauge hood and that's off the shelf...
Last edited by trinydex; Nov 9, 2005 at 02:43 PM.
Nov 9, 2005 | 04:38 AM
#45
Thread Starter
Evolved Member
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 633
Likes: 0
From: Okinawa, Japan
Originally Posted by trinydex
i would say this is true... i think the stis are suffering quite a bit... my friend wanted to get one and i was looking at stuff for the stis... so limited.
where do you pick up a decent ti exhaust?
where do you have a place that makes custom spec sus parts that WORK and at TRACK PROVEN?
all the wheel sizes are for wussies with like +40 offets, where are the super widebodies, i mean honestly there are very few suby spokescars... i think every shop that does evo stuff has an evo... i don't think for one that there are that many suby shops and i don't think they all have suby shopcars. i mean look at br they already have two... rre has two... ams has one of their own and a customer car that is just as good as theirs... etc etc etc...
the thing is... technically in all technical respects... the sti should be a better car. the spec c in japan has proven that it CAN be a better car... but what the heck happened to all the other models. why so much anti dive tuning that you get the horrid understeer. why so little concern in sus tuning market to get it out. is there a john mueller of subies?
also... i think the suby is such an off the shelf car... everything is off the shelf... the evo is an innovator's car... we have so many gadgets... from the craig hardy panel to buschu's external wastegate... to works' 3" o2 housing... we're makin' all this cool stuff for evos.... i think the coolest thing for the suby is the defi gauge hood and that's off the shelf...
where do you pick up a decent ti exhaust?
where do you have a place that makes custom spec sus parts that WORK and at TRACK PROVEN?
all the wheel sizes are for wussies with like +40 offets, where are the super widebodies, i mean honestly there are very few suby spokescars... i think every shop that does evo stuff has an evo... i don't think for one that there are that many suby shops and i don't think they all have suby shopcars. i mean look at br they already have two... rre has two... ams has one of their own and a customer car that is just as good as theirs... etc etc etc...
the thing is... technically in all technical respects... the sti should be a better car. the spec c in japan has proven that it CAN be a better car... but what the heck happened to all the other models. why so much anti dive tuning that you get the horrid understeer. why so little concern in sus tuning market to get it out. is there a john mueller of subies?
also... i think the suby is such an off the shelf car... everything is off the shelf... the evo is an innovator's car... we have so many gadgets... from the craig hardy panel to buschu's external wastegate... to works' 3" o2 housing... we're makin' all this cool stuff for evos.... i think the coolest thing for the suby is the defi gauge hood and that's off the shelf...
-Nate