mayhem

iTrader: (9)

mayhem

iTrader: (9)

If looking at NASA's safety rules, the seat holes are not to be used as "harness guides". Basically saying, don't count on the seat holes to correct the angle from your shoulders to the mounting location. But it reads like it NASA will accept a harness bar or "guide bar" for angle correction. NASA rule 15.5.6: "The shoulder harness shall be mounted behind the driver and above a line drawn downward from the shoulder point at an angle of no more than 20 degrees with the horizontal."

Without getting into the physics of it, I would take their rules as a good starting point.

I think the ALMS had some good safety rules listed somewhere, but I can not seem to find them.

sk8

iTrader: (2)

/end of thread.

EvoIXMR

iTrader: (66)

Thats what I meant in my earlier post

06MR895

Sorry for this, but........


This is just wrong IMO. People are trying to help others understand what's going on and why certain things act certain ways. I just don't understand why there are some people on evolutionm that act this way. If you don't like what's being discussed in the thread move on. jeez!

Darwinator

iTrader: (8)

Theres always one d-bag in every forum talking about the ONLY way to have a harness. I'm not talking about the info, just about how theres always that "one guy." To me that one guy is the kid that said, "i'm telling mommy."

To that "one guy", Schroth and plenty of others would seize to manufacture bolt-in harness', as well as NASA, SCCA, and SpeedTrials banning them in amateur/hpde's. DOT approved does stand for something.

If you want to argue about safety, the probability of being in a fatal accident on track is so low that you could compare it with people winning the lottery. And of course you know that millions of people play the lottery even though the chances of them winning are millions to one.

mooreboost

iTrader: (6)

Hahah, you're screen name is ironically appropriate.

Have at it chief, there's too many idiots in this world anyway, wouldn't hurt to have one less.

mooreboost

iTrader: (6)

No need to beat around the bush.

I'm right, you're wrong.

Just FYI you're ignorance on this one will result in severe injury, or hopefully death.

EasyZ06

iTrader: (1)

I dont post much, but this one caught my attention. Its great that everyone is giving advice, and yes some will have their own "comments" well say. But on this topic I believe it is best to get a rule book, weather it be NASA or SCCA and get the proper way out of that. Messing around with someones safety shouldnt be taken lightly.

Just my .02

Jeff

Im not trying to knock anyones knowledge here either! This wep page is very helpful we just dont want to see any memebers getting hurt!

voidhawk

iTrader: (20)

A harrness install is a complicated undertaking, and a lot of people have very firm opinions on the subject. The following information is based on my own experience, but I'm in no way claiming to be an expert on vehicle safety systems.

I wanted to use a 3" harrness with the stock seats, in a setup that is removable so I would not loose my rear seats in daily use. The intended use for the harrness is during open track days, rally-x and auto-x, always in conjunction with wearing a helmet.

I learned that with any harness the problem of slipping under your lap belt (or "submarining") is an issue. For auto-x use Schorth offers 2" wide 4-pt harnesses that are DOT approved and do not have or require an anti-submarine belt. Some of the Schroth 2" harrnesses are partially flexible, making them easier to get in and out off, more convenient for an auto-x where you get in/out of the car more often. However, I wanted a 3" shoulder strap because during the high speeds and extended use times of open track days, a 2" harness can become quite uncomfortable. All 3" harrnesses should have some function to prevent submarining.

Basically, the 5 strap (or 5&6 strap) in a 5 or 6 pt harrness are meant to prevent you from slipping under the lap belt ("submarining") in an impact. You cannot properly mount these straps with the stock seats, unless you have them modified with a slot or hole to pass the strap through the seating surface. If you go over the front or side edges of the seat, it will not allow the anti-submarine belts to do their job correctly.

if you want to use your stock seats with a 3" harrness, but do not want to go through the trouble of modifying them to accept an anti-submarine belt, you can use a Schroth profi harrness with ASM ("anti sub marine") technology (that's what I did). The Shroth ASM technology 4-point harnesses have a special stitching on one of the shoulder straps that is intended to give in an impact, causing your body (and hip) to rotate in the seat and thus wedge you into the lap belt and prevent submarining. If you go this route, don't use a 3" lap belt. A 2" is better in preventing slip through and more comfortable. You can still use 3" shoulder belts for comfort on the upper body.

When I did my own harness setup, I spoke a lot with Matt Long at HMS Motorsport (888-467-3269), he was able to answer a lot of my questions and provide a harrness setup specifically customized for what I wanted. DOT approval of a harness depends mostly on the closing mechanism of the harness (pretty much all harnesses meet DOT safety standards). The Shroth DOT approved harnesses have a "push button" release like a normal seat belt, instead of a cam-lock type release. The reasoning is that highway safety personnel is not trained in operating a cam-lock type harrness, and thus a push button release is required for approval.

Regarding spinal compression and the rear mounting points: you can install a roll bar or a harness bar to be 100% on the safe side. With the harness bar in the car, you also (a) should not transport people in the back, and (b) should not drive without a helmet. (a) because rear passengers run the risk of hitting the bar in an impact, and (b) because the driver's head can hit the harness bar mount in a side impact, bad news without a helmet. A roll bar can stay in the car while driving without the helmet & harness (depending on the specific design and with padding where needed), but you loose your rear seats permanently. A harness bar can (and should) be removed when the harrness & helmet are not worn.

Given these constraints, you can mount the harrness to the rear seat anchor points with a couple of caveats: a standard shroth harrness will not reach to the upper deck to get a flat angle, and you cannot extend it without messing up the safety features. Sparco offers a long "H-Belt" shoulder strap with their harness which will reach to the top deck, but then you need an anti-subamrine belt again and modified seats (since Sparco doesn't offer the 4-pt ASM design). The newer years of the Evo have baby seat anchors on the rear deck - you cannot use these for anchoring the harrness, but you can use the same locations to install thicker eyebolts with backing plates, which makes is cosmetically nice when the harness is not in the car.

For an approved seat, you can also use the lower seat belt mounting points up to an angle of 45 deg. Matt told me that he was involved in safety testing the Evo stock Recaro's and they did not show deformation in over 3000 crash tests that would lead to spinal compression injuries. Shroth also publishes a list of "approved" seats you can double check (don't take my word for it).

If you want "snap-in" style anchors for your harrness so it can be easily removed when not in use, look at the anchors made for Porsche's sold by Northstar Motorsports. They are expensive, but they fit both on the outside, and tunnel side of the front mounting points. They are also very high quality hardened steel, which is nice. In the back you can use an eyebolt to replace the existing seatbelt bolts and get snap in locations hidden under the rear seat.

BTW harnesses have an expiration date, and they stretch in an impact, and have to be replaced. If you buy a used harrness, get it "rewebbed" by the original manufacturer, meaning they replace all the "cloth" and resuse the hardware.

One more - when you use the harrness, plug the OEM seatbelt in as well (routed behind the seat). This makes the airbags deploy less violently in an impact. Recently, SCCA has also recommended not to use full-face helmets in the car if the airbags are active, because the bag can hit the chin gard, and push up the helmet violently enough to shatter your jaw. Either get a switch to deactivate the airbag system when using a helmet, or use an open face helmet instead.

If you need more info about Schroth harnesses, call Matt, if you need hints on how to install the snap in anchors or part numbers send me a PM.

mayhem

iTrader: (9)

What information have you offered in this thread? Without even knowing it, you are that "one guy" and the douchebag in this thread.

And the chances of a fatal accident on track is a lot higher than winning the lotto. I've seen some very scary moments at almost every track event I've been too. Luckily their PROPERLY INSTALLED safety equipment has always saved them.

Darwinator

iTrader: (8)

Until someone does get injured from a bolt in harness they are absolutely ok to use. If you want to complain about it, complain to the companies that manufacture bolt in harness'. I'm sure ze Germans of Schroth can back up the product i bought from them.