The importance of a great alignment........
Aug 22, 2006, 01:55 PM
#106
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Originally Posted by turbotiger
To find a local performance alignment shop, go join / ask a question at your local SCCA mailing list / web forum. Or pick up a copy of your local SCCA magazine / newletter / newspaper. Or ask your local road racing community or fellow road racer.
I will take a look and see what sources I can find through SCCA
Aug 22, 2006, 02:01 PM
#107
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
Actually they had a whole cite cheking and editorial staff who perfromed that task
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...&postcount=119
Since when is evo m a spelling B anyway ?
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...&postcount=119
Since when is evo m a spelling B anyway ?
Aug 22, 2006, 02:03 PM
#108
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Originally Posted by razorlab
Oh the irony.
Aug 22, 2006, 02:03 PM
#109
I'm glad there are more posts about buschur's alledged underhanded motives and Al's spelling than about the technical topic. This forum rocks!
Last friday I contacted a local performance shop about an alignment. They no longer do it, and forwarded me to a shop that builds autox and roadrace Miatas. It was on the way to the track even. I explained why I was getting an alignment and what I do with the car. No stupid looks, no stupid comments. He was not surprised at all that I was getting an alignment to try to get better times, they do the same thing on the road course. So far so good. First thing the guy tells me to do is take out any weight that is not in the car when I run it. Then he tells me he'll be aligning the car with me in it. Now we're in business
I had some idea on what I wanted for some of the specs, and he provided some suggestions for others. Within an hour or so of actual adjustments it was setup the way we wanted it. Total cost was 85 dollars.
First impression was that it was a whole new car. Effortless to drive on the highway, still responsive, etc. I have a feeling fuel economy has improved measureably, but I have to burn off a whole tank to get a reliable picture of what it really is. At the track, the car pulled straight all the way down. No more wandering all over the place in 4th. The good news is that I picked up over 2 mph over what I was running before the alignment.
I'm impressed with the change, and not surprised. Wether or not this would translate into more HP on a dnyo, I can't say. I don't dyno my car constantly like someone like Buschur does. I asked a local Mustang Dyno owner while tuning a local DSMer's car what he thought of it. He said he had ever heard of this, but is not surprised either. In his experience simply running the car with the straps not pulling the car perfectly stright would cause lower numbers, for AWDs, which is probably similar to not being aligned well in my estimation. It makes sense to me. If a bad alignment causes a loss of power to the tire/road junction, and a dyno is like a "rolling road" as some of them describe it, I would think the same principles would apply to each.
Last friday I contacted a local performance shop about an alignment. They no longer do it, and forwarded me to a shop that builds autox and roadrace Miatas. It was on the way to the track even. I explained why I was getting an alignment and what I do with the car. No stupid looks, no stupid comments. He was not surprised at all that I was getting an alignment to try to get better times, they do the same thing on the road course. So far so good. First thing the guy tells me to do is take out any weight that is not in the car when I run it. Then he tells me he'll be aligning the car with me in it. Now we're in business
I had some idea on what I wanted for some of the specs, and he provided some suggestions for others. Within an hour or so of actual adjustments it was setup the way we wanted it. Total cost was 85 dollars.
First impression was that it was a whole new car. Effortless to drive on the highway, still responsive, etc. I have a feeling fuel economy has improved measureably, but I have to burn off a whole tank to get a reliable picture of what it really is. At the track, the car pulled straight all the way down. No more wandering all over the place in 4th. The good news is that I picked up over 2 mph over what I was running before the alignment.
I'm impressed with the change, and not surprised. Wether or not this would translate into more HP on a dnyo, I can't say. I don't dyno my car constantly like someone like Buschur does. I asked a local Mustang Dyno owner while tuning a local DSMer's car what he thought of it. He said he had ever heard of this, but is not surprised either. In his experience simply running the car with the straps not pulling the car perfectly stright would cause lower numbers, for AWDs, which is probably similar to not being aligned well in my estimation. It makes sense to me. If a bad alignment causes a loss of power to the tire/road junction, and a dyno is like a "rolling road" as some of them describe it, I would think the same principles would apply to each.
Aug 22, 2006, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by kjewer1
I'm glad there are more posts about buschur's alledged underhanded motives and Al's spelling than about the technical topic. This forum rocks!
Last friday I contacted a local performance shop about an alignment. They no longer do it, and forwarded me to a shop that builds autox and roadrace Miatas. It was on the way to the track even. I explained why I was getting an alignment and what I do with the car. No stupid looks, no stupid comments. He was not surprised at all that I was getting an alignment to try to get better times, they do the same thing on the road course. So far so good. First thing the guy tells me to do is take out any weight that is not in the car when I run it. Then he tells me he'll be aligning the car with me in it. Now we're in business
I had some idea on what I wanted for some of the specs, and he provided some suggestions for others. Within an hour or so of actual adjustments it was setup the way we wanted it. Total cost was 85 dollars.
First impression was that it was a whole new car. Effortless to drive on the highway, still responsive, etc. I have a feeling fuel economy has improved measureably, but I have to burn off a whole tank to get a reliable picture of what it really is. At the track, the car pulled straight all the way down. No more wandering all over the place in 4th. The good news is that I picked up over 2 mph over what I was running before the alignment.
I'm impressed with the change, and not surprised. Wether or not this would translate into more HP on a dnyo, I can't say. I don't dyno my car constantly like someone like Buschur does. I asked a local Mustang Dyno owner while tuning a local DSMer's car what he thought of it. He said he had ever heard of this, but is not surprised either. In his experience simply running the car with the straps not pulling the car perfectly stright would cause lower numbers, for AWDs, which is probably similar to not being aligned well in my estimation. It makes sense to me. If a bad alignment causes a loss of power to the tire/road junction, and a dyno is like a "rolling road" as some of them describe it, I would think the same principles would apply to each.
Last friday I contacted a local performance shop about an alignment. They no longer do it, and forwarded me to a shop that builds autox and roadrace Miatas. It was on the way to the track even. I explained why I was getting an alignment and what I do with the car. No stupid looks, no stupid comments. He was not surprised at all that I was getting an alignment to try to get better times, they do the same thing on the road course. So far so good. First thing the guy tells me to do is take out any weight that is not in the car when I run it. Then he tells me he'll be aligning the car with me in it. Now we're in business
I had some idea on what I wanted for some of the specs, and he provided some suggestions for others. Within an hour or so of actual adjustments it was setup the way we wanted it. Total cost was 85 dollars.
First impression was that it was a whole new car. Effortless to drive on the highway, still responsive, etc. I have a feeling fuel economy has improved measureably, but I have to burn off a whole tank to get a reliable picture of what it really is. At the track, the car pulled straight all the way down. No more wandering all over the place in 4th. The good news is that I picked up over 2 mph over what I was running before the alignment.
I'm impressed with the change, and not surprised. Wether or not this would translate into more HP on a dnyo, I can't say. I don't dyno my car constantly like someone like Buschur does. I asked a local Mustang Dyno owner while tuning a local DSMer's car what he thought of it. He said he had ever heard of this, but is not surprised either. In his experience simply running the car with the straps not pulling the car perfectly stright would cause lower numbers, for AWDs, which is probably similar to not being aligned well in my estimation. It makes sense to me. If a bad alignment causes a loss of power to the tire/road junction, and a dyno is like a "rolling road" as some of them describe it, I would think the same principles would apply to each.
Aug 22, 2006, 03:13 PM
#112
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Originally Posted by EVIL_EV0
What specs are you using for your alignment?
Alignment is half knowing WHAT to set it at and HALF setting it accurately - kind of like tuning
I got the specs from Buschur - I know nothing about alignment
They spent two hours of hard work at MAVIS for $95.99
I loved driving home - even on Hooisers !
Thanks David for the idea and for the settings
Aug 22, 2006, 04:44 PM
#113
Originally Posted by EVIL_EV0
What specs are you using for your alignment?
Apparently the rear was very easy to set up. The guy doing the alignment was very happy with the adjustment set up there. For the the front he didn't see a good way to adjust camber, and I don't know the suspension on this car like I did the DSMs, so we left the front where it was. Toe was set to zero all around, everything straight ahead. Rear camber was a bit over 1 degree on both sides, we set it to -1 even. The lower the better for drag racing, but I still want some handling ability naturally (if it was a drag only car I would set it slightly positive, hoping for zero when it squats). The front was at -1.5 left and -2.0 right. He was able to get the right to match the left using the slop in some of the mounting bolts. I was in the car so I could not see what he did, unfortunately.
So ultimately it is at zero toe front and rear, and -1 degee camber in the rear and -1.5 in the front. No noticeable change in the car's ability to corner hard.
>Edited for spelling and clarity.
Last edited by kjewer1; Aug 22, 2006 at 04:47 PM.
Aug 22, 2006, 08:12 PM
#114
Originally Posted by KOEvo
wtf?
You need to work on your people skills dude. I don't think anybody found that funny or beneficial in any way.
From an mod at that...
You need to work on your people skills dude. I don't think anybody found that funny or beneficial in any way.
From an mod at that...
Keith
PS: This will probably be deleted by a supermod or admin... but I hope you get to read it first. Daves Db meter would be pegged on you.... Dave knows what I am talking about.
Last edited by Fourdoor; Aug 22, 2006 at 08:22 PM.
Aug 22, 2006, 08:23 PM
#115
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Originally Posted by kjewer1
I'm glad there are more posts about buschur's alledged underhanded motives and Al's spelling than about the technical topic. This forum rocks!
Last friday I contacted a local performance shop about an alignment. They no longer do it, and forwarded me to a shop that builds autox and roadrace Miatas. It was on the way to the track even. I explained why I was getting an alignment and what I do with the car. No stupid looks, no stupid comments. He was not surprised at all that I was getting an alignment to try to get better times, they do the same thing on the road course. So far so good. First thing the guy tells me to do is take out any weight that is not in the car when I run it. Then he tells me he'll be aligning the car with me in it. Now we're in business
I had some idea on what I wanted for some of the specs, and he provided some suggestions for others. Within an hour or so of actual adjustments it was setup the way we wanted it. Total cost was 85 dollars.
First impression was that it was a whole new car. Effortless to drive on the highway, still responsive, etc. I have a feeling fuel economy has improved measureably, but I have to burn off a whole tank to get a reliable picture of what it really is. At the track, the car pulled straight all the way down. No more wandering all over the place in 4th. The good news is that I picked up over 2 mph over what I was running before the alignment.
I'm impressed with the change, and not surprised. Wether or not this would translate into more HP on a dnyo, I can't say. I don't dyno my car constantly like someone like Buschur does. I asked a local Mustang Dyno owner while tuning a local DSMer's car what he thought of it. He said he had ever heard of this, but is not surprised either. In his experience simply running the car with the straps not pulling the car perfectly stright would cause lower numbers, for AWDs, which is probably similar to not being aligned well in my estimation. It makes sense to me. If a bad alignment causes a loss of power to the tire/road junction, and a dyno is like a "rolling road" as some of them describe it, I would think the same principles would apply to each.
Last friday I contacted a local performance shop about an alignment. They no longer do it, and forwarded me to a shop that builds autox and roadrace Miatas. It was on the way to the track even. I explained why I was getting an alignment and what I do with the car. No stupid looks, no stupid comments. He was not surprised at all that I was getting an alignment to try to get better times, they do the same thing on the road course. So far so good. First thing the guy tells me to do is take out any weight that is not in the car when I run it. Then he tells me he'll be aligning the car with me in it. Now we're in business
I had some idea on what I wanted for some of the specs, and he provided some suggestions for others. Within an hour or so of actual adjustments it was setup the way we wanted it. Total cost was 85 dollars.
First impression was that it was a whole new car. Effortless to drive on the highway, still responsive, etc. I have a feeling fuel economy has improved measureably, but I have to burn off a whole tank to get a reliable picture of what it really is. At the track, the car pulled straight all the way down. No more wandering all over the place in 4th. The good news is that I picked up over 2 mph over what I was running before the alignment.
I'm impressed with the change, and not surprised. Wether or not this would translate into more HP on a dnyo, I can't say. I don't dyno my car constantly like someone like Buschur does. I asked a local Mustang Dyno owner while tuning a local DSMer's car what he thought of it. He said he had ever heard of this, but is not surprised either. In his experience simply running the car with the straps not pulling the car perfectly stright would cause lower numbers, for AWDs, which is probably similar to not being aligned well in my estimation. It makes sense to me. If a bad alignment causes a loss of power to the tire/road junction, and a dyno is like a "rolling road" as some of them describe it, I would think the same principles would apply to each.
Aug 22, 2006, 11:17 PM
#116
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Originally Posted by vonserb
No...none taken.
For the driving I do, $400 for an alignment is way too much. I would pay ~$150. I use the Evo mainly for daily driving and future autocross events.
I had an alignment done at a regular tire shop and they did change the toe/camber because of the from tires wearing bad on the insides of the tires. I just checked the tires during a rotation and the wear is nice and even.
If I was doing racing and every second on the track mattered, I might be wrong.
For the driving I do, $400 for an alignment is way too much. I would pay ~$150. I use the Evo mainly for daily driving and future autocross events.
I had an alignment done at a regular tire shop and they did change the toe/camber because of the from tires wearing bad on the insides of the tires. I just checked the tires during a rotation and the wear is nice and even.
If I was doing racing and every second on the track mattered, I might be wrong.
Aug 22, 2006, 11:42 PM
#117
Kevin J., be careful claiming you have gained mph on the race track and possibly even fuel mileage on the road, you might get accused of being a crook and trying to steal people's money! haha Glad to hear you have gotten some improvements. The fuel mileage going up, to me, doesn't seem at all unlikely. If the car is rolling easier it is going to get better mileage, going faster is a result of it not scrubbing the tires and not scrubbing the tires is going to put more power to a dyno.
Al, when you come up here for NOPI we'll check out your alignment, wish I could have done it for you this time.
We, Trent and I, aligned his car in our parking lot, unlevel, with some toe plates and a camber gauge I have. The car is probably not very close. He has been on me to take the time to re-align it with our new equipment. His car has run an 11.20 at 122 mph lately and he is dieing to do a few more things to drop the car into the 10's. This is on the list. Trent's a horribly consistent driver so it will be interesting to see how far off his alignment is and what he gains after we align it.
Al, when you come up here for NOPI we'll check out your alignment, wish I could have done it for you this time.
We, Trent and I, aligned his car in our parking lot, unlevel, with some toe plates and a camber gauge I have. The car is probably not very close. He has been on me to take the time to re-align it with our new equipment. His car has run an 11.20 at 122 mph lately and he is dieing to do a few more things to drop the car into the 10's. This is on the list. Trent's a horribly consistent driver so it will be interesting to see how far off his alignment is and what he gains after we align it.
Aug 23, 2006, 12:06 AM
#118
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this is quite an interesting thread. DB, have you tried yet to get dyno runs on other cars that yield more whp? Or perhaps try to place a perfectly aligned car back to its pre-aligned specs and yield lower whp? You may have hit upon a very cool concept but I would only believe it if other folks with their dynos yield repeatable results which is the basis to prove any scientific hypothesis.
Aug 23, 2006, 01:52 AM
#119
Originally Posted by AlwaysinBoost
so did you have any improved 60's or track times?
Having not run the Advans in a year now, I'm also not used to launching on them. I got the usual 1.62-1.63s however. The ET sucked as well. My tranny doesn't like to do the 1-2 shift so I don't shift fast until the trap speed is where I want it. You can't ET faster than your MPH warrants, so I don't beat the tranny for nothing. I spent the rest of the night trying to figure out why the car fell on it's face when I turned on the nitrous.
Aug 23, 2006, 05:08 AM
#120
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Originally Posted by Fourdoor
Dude, if you don't like me poking fun at a friend on the internet then report me to a supermod, or admin..... otherwise Shut Up. And you can report that to a supermod as well.
Keith
PS: This will probably be deleted by a supermod or admin... but I hope you get to read it first. Daves Db meter would be pegged on you.... Dave knows what I am talking about.
Keith
PS: This will probably be deleted by a supermod or admin... but I hope you get to read it first. Daves Db meter would be pegged on you.... Dave knows what I am talking about.