Detailed Unbias Comparo - very worth the read
May 29, 2003, 02:50 PM
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Detailed Unbias Comparo - very worth the read
Having driven both the USDM STi and the USDM Evo, about the best advice I can give to a potential Evo/STi buyer is to consider your circumstances and driving needs before buying either car. By “circumstances”, I am referring to what you have in your existing garage. Do you have another car that is reasonably comfortable that you can tool around in when you are tired and grumpy, or will the Evo/STi be the only car you can ever be able to get your hands on. By “driving needs” I am referring to how often you will be taking the car to a Road-Racing Circuit, Autocross or even a twisty road within the public domain. For the sake of simplicity, let’s group all potential buyers into four categories. I will then make a recommendation for each group.
Group 1:
Tries to explore every opportunity to take the car to the track/autox/twisty road.
Has another reasonably comfortably car in his garage for less hard-core driving.
Recommended Car: Evo is the one for you, but the STi is a reasonable alternative.
Group 2:
Tries to explore every opportunity to take the car to the track/autox/twisty road.
Does NOT have a more comfortable car in his garage.
Recommended Car: Both cars are highly recommended, so it comes down to your tolerance for the Ride/Handling compromise. If you are in this group, I urge you to drive both cars before deciding.
Group 3:
Occasionally takes the car to the track/autox/twisty road.
Has another reasonably comfortably car in his garage for less hard-core driving.
Recommended Car: STi is the one to get, but the Evo is a reasonable alternative.
Group 4:
Occasionally takes the car to the track/autox/twisty road.
Does NOT have a more comfortable car in his garage.
Recommended Car: Neither car is suited, but take the STi if you can’t see past these two. Those in this group really need to test drive other cars like the IS300, G35, A4, 3-series, etc.
I belong to “Group 1” so I decided on the Evo. When I don’t want to deal with the Evo’s evil personality, I can always jump into my wife’s friendly WRX wagon.
Here is how I would rate these two cars in various categories. Keep in mind that in the Evo I never went past 5.5k rpms and in the STi I limited myself to 4k except for two occasions when I went to about 5k exiting a couple of tight corners. Because both cars were new, I did not test the brakes other than gently trail-braking coming into turns. My main objective during both test drives was to compare the way the cars handled. For my earlier review of the Evo, please see the following thread on Evolutionm.net:
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...threadid=22720
Engine (power, response, sound, etc.)
Evolution----: 7
STi-----------: 8
The STi engine is just a little bit better than the Evo’s engine in every aspect here. A little more power, a little less lag, a little less strained and a nice boxer rumble. Compared to the standard WRX, the STi has a spectacular engine. In fact, the STi engine feels more like a twin-turbo than a single turbo. With the Evo's high boost levels, gearchanges need to be super-quick in order to keep the power from lapsing.
Handling (turn-in accuracy, throttle-steer adjustability and cornering balance, weight transfer & chassis feedback, etc.)
Evolution----: 9
STi-----------: 8
Steering (weight & self-centering, on-center & off-center feedback, input/output accuracy, etc.)
Evolution----: 9
STi-----------: 7.5
The Sti's handling strength lies in it's ability to take on pretty much any type of mid-corner bump and hold it's line consistently from start to finish. In contrast, the Evo tends to get a little upset if it encounters irregularities mid-corner. Having said that, if you do end up making a change to the car's cornering attitude, the Evo responds slightly more faithfully. Another area where the Sti is just slightly better than the Evo is in the way it relays information about weight transfer to the driver through the seat.
The Evo’s steering reminds me of the E30 M3, only sharper but with slightly less self-centering. There is a LOT more to this car's handling than a steering with 2 turns lock-to-lock. Turn-in is ultra-crisp and precise. The steering provides a very detailed impression of the available grip and weighs up consistently and progressively as the g-forces increase. Then, at the point of understeer, the steering send all the right messages at the right time by lightning-up the load.
In the Evo, you can lift-off mid-corner or apply a little bit of trail braking and whatever little understeer there is, disappears...just like that. Apply a lot of trail braking around a 50-mph corner like I did, and the back end will come out quickly but predictably. Too much oversteer? No problem. Apply a moderate amount of gas and the car gets into a smooth 4-wheel drift. No need for ungodly amounts of opposite lock; a competent driver CAN make this car throttle steer. I only did one 4-wheel drift on a corner that had a lot of safe run-off room.
Although not as talkative as the Evo’s steering, compared to any ordinary performance car, the STi steering is still wonderful. It builds up nicely during cornering and gives you fair warning of the understeer as it inevitably sets in. As with the Ride/Handling compromise, the issue with steering feedback is whether you, as a driver, prefer to receive more information at the expense that some of that information may not be necessary (like the exact size of the pot-hole you just went over). Or would you rather know all you there is to know because you do care about that slight difference in grip from one pavement type to another. If you like more information, you will prefer the Evo’s steering. Not that the STi's steering doesn’t communicate, far from it. It’s just that in this elevated company, The Evo provides that extra sense of reassurance that the STi lacks. Are there any steerings that provide even more feedback than the Evo’s? Sure. You need to drive a Caterham 7 and experience one for yourself.
If you were paying attention in the last paragraph, you noticed that I mentioned “STi” and “Understeer” in the same sentence. Were not talking about understeer in the same way that we talk about understeer for a standard WRX or another ordinary performance car. Paul Hansen’s 1-100 understeer scale is perfect for this type of comparison. Although, I get the feeling from reading about the JDM STi and Evo, that the USDM STi may have been tweaked by SOA to produce more understeer than it’s Japanese counterpart. Coming into a corner with trail braking, the STi will begin to push. If you step on the gas, initially it seems to push more. Then at some point, the understeer turns into oversteer. More so than the EVO, the STi requires really good throttle control. And unlike the Evo, the STi did not respond well to extensive trail braking, instead preferring a slow-in fast-out approach.
Ride
Evolution----: 3
STi-----------: 4.5
Neither car will comfort you like a BMW 5-series nut the STi still wins this category convincingly. Both cars are about equally harsh on pavement joints. It’s the low frequency undulations where the STi shows more composure than the Evo.
Transmission (ratios, directness, ease of downshifting, etc.)
Evolution----: 8
STi-----------: 7
The Evo’s gear ratios are close enough and the powerband wide enough that I never felt like I was in the wrong gear coming out of corners (even ones with increasing radius). The shifting is very mechanical. Not as light as my Type-R but more decisive and solid. I would prefer a slightly shorter throw.
The STi feels a little notchier and imprecise compared to the Evo. Again, the STi’s tranny is better than a standard WRX but not by much. The STi’s strength lies in it’s close ratios, although with a powerband this wide, you really have to wonder about the usefulness of having 6 gears other than for extended highway cruising.
Driving environment (seats, pedals, ergonomics, visibility. etc.)
Evolution----: 9
STi-----------: 8
A great seat is one that you don't have to think about when you are cornering. The EVO is the only production car I have ever driven in which I did not once think about the seats while cornering. The pedals are almost perfect for heel&toe downshifts. I would probably move them a tad closer since my right foot does not like to point as far inward as most other people. The car is roomier that the WRX, especially in the rear. The visibility is very good in all direction.
The STi’s seats are a lot better than a standard WRX’s or 350Z’s, but again not quite up to the level of the Evo’s Recaros. It’s not the size of the side bolsters, it’s the shape that let’s down the STi slightly. However, the slight lack of support is something you won’t notice unless you’re driving at least 9/10 around a corner.
In other areas of the Ergonomics category, both cars run a dead heat.
and here's the thread:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...hreadid=368844
Group 1:
Tries to explore every opportunity to take the car to the track/autox/twisty road.
Has another reasonably comfortably car in his garage for less hard-core driving.
Recommended Car: Evo is the one for you, but the STi is a reasonable alternative.
Group 2:
Tries to explore every opportunity to take the car to the track/autox/twisty road.
Does NOT have a more comfortable car in his garage.
Recommended Car: Both cars are highly recommended, so it comes down to your tolerance for the Ride/Handling compromise. If you are in this group, I urge you to drive both cars before deciding.
Group 3:
Occasionally takes the car to the track/autox/twisty road.
Has another reasonably comfortably car in his garage for less hard-core driving.
Recommended Car: STi is the one to get, but the Evo is a reasonable alternative.
Group 4:
Occasionally takes the car to the track/autox/twisty road.
Does NOT have a more comfortable car in his garage.
Recommended Car: Neither car is suited, but take the STi if you can’t see past these two. Those in this group really need to test drive other cars like the IS300, G35, A4, 3-series, etc.
I belong to “Group 1” so I decided on the Evo. When I don’t want to deal with the Evo’s evil personality, I can always jump into my wife’s friendly WRX wagon.
Here is how I would rate these two cars in various categories. Keep in mind that in the Evo I never went past 5.5k rpms and in the STi I limited myself to 4k except for two occasions when I went to about 5k exiting a couple of tight corners. Because both cars were new, I did not test the brakes other than gently trail-braking coming into turns. My main objective during both test drives was to compare the way the cars handled. For my earlier review of the Evo, please see the following thread on Evolutionm.net:
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...threadid=22720
Engine (power, response, sound, etc.)
Evolution----: 7
STi-----------: 8
The STi engine is just a little bit better than the Evo’s engine in every aspect here. A little more power, a little less lag, a little less strained and a nice boxer rumble. Compared to the standard WRX, the STi has a spectacular engine. In fact, the STi engine feels more like a twin-turbo than a single turbo. With the Evo's high boost levels, gearchanges need to be super-quick in order to keep the power from lapsing.
Handling (turn-in accuracy, throttle-steer adjustability and cornering balance, weight transfer & chassis feedback, etc.)
Evolution----: 9
STi-----------: 8
Steering (weight & self-centering, on-center & off-center feedback, input/output accuracy, etc.)
Evolution----: 9
STi-----------: 7.5
The Sti's handling strength lies in it's ability to take on pretty much any type of mid-corner bump and hold it's line consistently from start to finish. In contrast, the Evo tends to get a little upset if it encounters irregularities mid-corner. Having said that, if you do end up making a change to the car's cornering attitude, the Evo responds slightly more faithfully. Another area where the Sti is just slightly better than the Evo is in the way it relays information about weight transfer to the driver through the seat.
The Evo’s steering reminds me of the E30 M3, only sharper but with slightly less self-centering. There is a LOT more to this car's handling than a steering with 2 turns lock-to-lock. Turn-in is ultra-crisp and precise. The steering provides a very detailed impression of the available grip and weighs up consistently and progressively as the g-forces increase. Then, at the point of understeer, the steering send all the right messages at the right time by lightning-up the load.
In the Evo, you can lift-off mid-corner or apply a little bit of trail braking and whatever little understeer there is, disappears...just like that. Apply a lot of trail braking around a 50-mph corner like I did, and the back end will come out quickly but predictably. Too much oversteer? No problem. Apply a moderate amount of gas and the car gets into a smooth 4-wheel drift. No need for ungodly amounts of opposite lock; a competent driver CAN make this car throttle steer. I only did one 4-wheel drift on a corner that had a lot of safe run-off room.
Although not as talkative as the Evo’s steering, compared to any ordinary performance car, the STi steering is still wonderful. It builds up nicely during cornering and gives you fair warning of the understeer as it inevitably sets in. As with the Ride/Handling compromise, the issue with steering feedback is whether you, as a driver, prefer to receive more information at the expense that some of that information may not be necessary (like the exact size of the pot-hole you just went over). Or would you rather know all you there is to know because you do care about that slight difference in grip from one pavement type to another. If you like more information, you will prefer the Evo’s steering. Not that the STi's steering doesn’t communicate, far from it. It’s just that in this elevated company, The Evo provides that extra sense of reassurance that the STi lacks. Are there any steerings that provide even more feedback than the Evo’s? Sure. You need to drive a Caterham 7 and experience one for yourself.
If you were paying attention in the last paragraph, you noticed that I mentioned “STi” and “Understeer” in the same sentence. Were not talking about understeer in the same way that we talk about understeer for a standard WRX or another ordinary performance car. Paul Hansen’s 1-100 understeer scale is perfect for this type of comparison. Although, I get the feeling from reading about the JDM STi and Evo, that the USDM STi may have been tweaked by SOA to produce more understeer than it’s Japanese counterpart. Coming into a corner with trail braking, the STi will begin to push. If you step on the gas, initially it seems to push more. Then at some point, the understeer turns into oversteer. More so than the EVO, the STi requires really good throttle control. And unlike the Evo, the STi did not respond well to extensive trail braking, instead preferring a slow-in fast-out approach.
Ride
Evolution----: 3
STi-----------: 4.5
Neither car will comfort you like a BMW 5-series nut the STi still wins this category convincingly. Both cars are about equally harsh on pavement joints. It’s the low frequency undulations where the STi shows more composure than the Evo.
Transmission (ratios, directness, ease of downshifting, etc.)
Evolution----: 8
STi-----------: 7
The Evo’s gear ratios are close enough and the powerband wide enough that I never felt like I was in the wrong gear coming out of corners (even ones with increasing radius). The shifting is very mechanical. Not as light as my Type-R but more decisive and solid. I would prefer a slightly shorter throw.
The STi feels a little notchier and imprecise compared to the Evo. Again, the STi’s tranny is better than a standard WRX but not by much. The STi’s strength lies in it’s close ratios, although with a powerband this wide, you really have to wonder about the usefulness of having 6 gears other than for extended highway cruising.
Driving environment (seats, pedals, ergonomics, visibility. etc.)
Evolution----: 9
STi-----------: 8
A great seat is one that you don't have to think about when you are cornering. The EVO is the only production car I have ever driven in which I did not once think about the seats while cornering. The pedals are almost perfect for heel&toe downshifts. I would probably move them a tad closer since my right foot does not like to point as far inward as most other people. The car is roomier that the WRX, especially in the rear. The visibility is very good in all direction.
The STi’s seats are a lot better than a standard WRX’s or 350Z’s, but again not quite up to the level of the Evo’s Recaros. It’s not the size of the side bolsters, it’s the shape that let’s down the STi slightly. However, the slight lack of support is something you won’t notice unless you’re driving at least 9/10 around a corner.
In other areas of the Ergonomics category, both cars run a dead heat.
and here's the thread:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...hreadid=368844
May 29, 2003, 03:29 PM
#2
Re: Detailed Unbias Comparo - very worth the read
Originally posted by jotan82
I would prefer a slightly shorter throw.
I would prefer a slightly shorter throw.
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Jun 1, 2003, 01:35 AM
#8
Oddly enough, I dont find the Evo to be harsh for my tastes at all.. Its alot firmer than an average production car.. But it handles all the bumps pretty well.. but your right, its ride is noisy.. I did have the experience of driving in an area where there is construction on the pavement.. so the pavement was dredged and notched, lots of holes and imperfections.. and guess what.. The Evo didn't feel like you were going to bash a wheel.. It seemed to like the crappy pavement..
Of course my other car is a Neon with Eibach springs and 17's (Firm as hell.. every bump sounds like a huge crash) and I have another car which is a bona-fide old school muscle car.. However it does handle pretty well for what it is..
Of course my other car is a Neon with Eibach springs and 17's (Firm as hell.. every bump sounds like a huge crash) and I have another car which is a bona-fide old school muscle car.. However it does handle pretty well for what it is..