THE END ALL E85 Thread.
Mar 28, 2007, 01:30 PM
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E-85 ethanol is used in engines modified to accept higher concentrations of ethanol. Such flexible-fuel engines are designed to run on any mixture of gasoline or ethanol with up to 85% ethanol by volume. The primary differences from non-FFVs is the elimination of bare magnesium, aluminum, and rubber parts in the fuel system, the use of fuel pumps capable of operating with electrically conductive (ethanol) instead of non-conducting dielectric (gasoline) fuel, specially-coated wear-resistant engine parts, fuel injection control systems having a wider range of pulse widths (for injecting approximately 60% more fuel), the selection of stainless steel fuel lines (sometimes lined with plastic), the selection of stainless steel fuel tanks in place of terne fuel tanks, and, in some cases, the use of acid-neutralizing motor oil. For vehicles with fuel-tank mounted fuel pumps, additional differences to prevent arcing, as well as flame arrestors positioned in the tank's fill pipe, are also sometimes used.[citations needed]
Historically, the first widely-sold flexible-fuel vehicle in the United States was a variant of Henry Ford's Model T intended for use by self-reliant farmers who could make their own ethanol. Surprisingly, it is capable even to this day of running on E85, or gasoline, as it was designed to operate on either ethanol or gasoline, at the user's choice. Henry Ford's subsequent 1927 Model A likewise was an early flex fuel vehicle. It, however, eased the driver's method of accommodating various blends of ethanol and gasoline through a driver's control on the dash with a knob that was turned to control air fuel mixture and pulled to choke the single-barrel Zenith carburetor. This dash-mounted control provided easy control of all the major adjustments required for easily burning ethanol and gasoline in varying proportions, including enough range for burning today's E85 blend of ethanol and gasoline.[citations needed]
Modern flexible-fuel vehicles have come a long way since the Model T and Model A, and now automatically adapt themselves to burning changing percentages of ethanol and gasoline without any user intervention required. So far, most flexible-fuel vehicles that have been built in the United States have been sport-utility vehicles and other members of the "light truck" vehicle class, with smaller numbers of sedans, station wagons, and the like. The United States government corporate average fuel economy (CAFE) regulations are relaxed for FFV. For example, an FFV GMC Yukon is rated 33 mpg for CAFE purposes, when its EPA ratings are 15 mpg city, 20 mpg highway.[citations needed]General Motors has been a modern leader in flexible fuel engines, as their Swedish subsidiary Saab has developed a turbocharged flexible-fuel engine called the BioPower which takes special advantage of the high-octane fuel. This engine allows the vehicle to accelerate faster and attain higher speeds when running on E85 than when running on straight gasoline. Tests done using older Saabs fitted with the APC system shows that they can run fine on up to 50% E85 mixed with ordinary petrol. However it may have long term effects as ethanol is more aggressive on tubes and the petrol also acts as a lubricant.[citations needed]
Their Brazilian subsidiary adopted GM's Family II and Family 1 straight-4 engines with FlexPower technology that enables the use of ethanol, gasoline, or their mixture. The vehicles with FlexPower include the Chevrolet Corsa and the Chevrolet Astra.[citations needed]
E85 has an octane rating of 105, which is higher than typical commercial gasoline mixtures (octane ratings of 85 to 98); however, it does not burn as efficiently in traditionally-manufactured internal-combustion engines. Additionally, E85 contains less energy per volume as compared to gasoline. Although E85 contains only 72% of the energy on a gallon-for-gallon basis compared to gasoline, experimenters have seen slightly better fuel mileage than the 28% this difference in energy content implies. For example, recent tests by the National Renewable Energy Lab on fleet vehicles owned by the state of Ohio showed about a 25% reduction in mpg [1] (see table on pg 5) comparing E85 operation to reformulated gasoline in the same flexible fuel vehicle. Results compared against a gasoline-only vehicle were essentially the same, about a 25% reduction in volumetric fuel economy with E85.]]
Historically, the first widely-sold flexible-fuel vehicle in the United States was a variant of Henry Ford's Model T intended for use by self-reliant farmers who could make their own ethanol. Surprisingly, it is capable even to this day of running on E85, or gasoline, as it was designed to operate on either ethanol or gasoline, at the user's choice. Henry Ford's subsequent 1927 Model A likewise was an early flex fuel vehicle. It, however, eased the driver's method of accommodating various blends of ethanol and gasoline through a driver's control on the dash with a knob that was turned to control air fuel mixture and pulled to choke the single-barrel Zenith carburetor. This dash-mounted control provided easy control of all the major adjustments required for easily burning ethanol and gasoline in varying proportions, including enough range for burning today's E85 blend of ethanol and gasoline.[citations needed]
Modern flexible-fuel vehicles have come a long way since the Model T and Model A, and now automatically adapt themselves to burning changing percentages of ethanol and gasoline without any user intervention required. So far, most flexible-fuel vehicles that have been built in the United States have been sport-utility vehicles and other members of the "light truck" vehicle class, with smaller numbers of sedans, station wagons, and the like. The United States government corporate average fuel economy (CAFE) regulations are relaxed for FFV. For example, an FFV GMC Yukon is rated 33 mpg for CAFE purposes, when its EPA ratings are 15 mpg city, 20 mpg highway.[citations needed]General Motors has been a modern leader in flexible fuel engines, as their Swedish subsidiary Saab has developed a turbocharged flexible-fuel engine called the BioPower which takes special advantage of the high-octane fuel. This engine allows the vehicle to accelerate faster and attain higher speeds when running on E85 than when running on straight gasoline. Tests done using older Saabs fitted with the APC system shows that they can run fine on up to 50% E85 mixed with ordinary petrol. However it may have long term effects as ethanol is more aggressive on tubes and the petrol also acts as a lubricant.[citations needed]
Their Brazilian subsidiary adopted GM's Family II and Family 1 straight-4 engines with FlexPower technology that enables the use of ethanol, gasoline, or their mixture. The vehicles with FlexPower include the Chevrolet Corsa and the Chevrolet Astra.[citations needed]
E85 has an octane rating of 105, which is higher than typical commercial gasoline mixtures (octane ratings of 85 to 98); however, it does not burn as efficiently in traditionally-manufactured internal-combustion engines. Additionally, E85 contains less energy per volume as compared to gasoline. Although E85 contains only 72% of the energy on a gallon-for-gallon basis compared to gasoline, experimenters have seen slightly better fuel mileage than the 28% this difference in energy content implies. For example, recent tests by the National Renewable Energy Lab on fleet vehicles owned by the state of Ohio showed about a 25% reduction in mpg [1] (see table on pg 5) comparing E85 operation to reformulated gasoline in the same flexible fuel vehicle. Results compared against a gasoline-only vehicle were essentially the same, about a 25% reduction in volumetric fuel economy with E85.]]
Mar 28, 2007, 01:31 PM
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E85 is an alcohol fuel mixture that typically contains a mixture of up to 85% denatured fuel ethanol and gasoline or other hydrocarbon by volume. On an undenatured basis, the ethanol component ranges from 70% to 83%. E85 as a fuel is widely used in Sweden and is becoming increasingly common in the United States, mainly in the Midwest where corn is a major crop and is the primary source material for ethanol fuel production.
Mar 28, 2007, 01:32 PM
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E85 has been repeatedly shown to produce more power than a comparable gasoline fuel, especially in engines that need high octane fuels to avoid early detonation.[3] Ford Motor Company found that power typically increased approximately 5% with the switch to E85 [4]. Researchers working on the equivalent of E85 fuel for general aviation aircraft AGE-85 have seen the same results with an aircraft engine jumping from 600 hp on conventional 100LL AV gas to 650 hp on the AGE-85. Recorded power increases range from 5% to 9% depending on the engine. [5][6]
Due to pressure to remove leaded fuel even from racing environments, several racing organizations are looking at ethanol or E85 fuels as suitable alternative fuels for high performance race engines.
In 2007, the Swedish Touring Car Championship, STCC, will have cars running on E85.
In Swedish rallying, as of 2006, approx. 30% of competitors were running their rally cars on E85. There is also a rally cup (Ford Flexifuel Cup) using Ford Fiestas in Gr. N, which started in 2006.
In 2006, the National Street Car Association is adopting E85 as an approved fuel for both their American Muscle Car and Street Machine (racing class) eliminator racing classes.
The National Hot Rod Association (NHRA) currently allows ethanol as an approved fuel in several of its racing classes. NHRA approved ethanol is allowed in their bracket classes, Hotrod, Modified, ProFWD, and ProRWD classes to name some of the more popular. At this time NHRA has not announced any plans to include E85 as an approved fuel in the classes that are currently limited to "pump fuels".
The Indy Racing League is likewise moving to ethanol based fuels in 2006, with 10% ethanol 90% methanol fuel blend, and switching to a 100% ethanol fuel in the 2007 racing season.
General Motors Performance Division's GM Student Cobalt driven by Mark Dickens went 172.680 mph at Bonneville Speed Weeks August 2006, setting a new record for G/FCC class on E85 fuel. This run broke a 19-year-old record of 152.626 mph set by Doc Jeffries in 1987. [7]
There is much discussion of NASCAR also making the switch to an ethanol based fuel in the future. During selected 2006 Craftsman Truck Series races, the Chevrolet Silverado pace truck, such as the one in the GM Flex-Fuel 250, will be fueled by E85, and a marketing campaign with Morgan-Dollar Motorsports resulted in one of their trucks' numbers changed to #85 to promote E85 fuel such as the one used in the pace truck.
In 2006, Shell announced V8 Supercar will use Shell Optimax Extreme, a premium unleaded fuel blended with five percent ethanol.
Interest in E85 is high enough that there are now competitions for engine builders to develop winning combinations for both power and fuel economy on this fuel. One such competition is sponsored by the AERA Engine Builders Association. [8].
Due to pressure to remove leaded fuel even from racing environments, several racing organizations are looking at ethanol or E85 fuels as suitable alternative fuels for high performance race engines.
In 2007, the Swedish Touring Car Championship, STCC, will have cars running on E85.
In Swedish rallying, as of 2006, approx. 30% of competitors were running their rally cars on E85. There is also a rally cup (Ford Flexifuel Cup) using Ford Fiestas in Gr. N, which started in 2006.
In 2006, the National Street Car Association is adopting E85 as an approved fuel for both their American Muscle Car and Street Machine (racing class) eliminator racing classes.
The National Hot Rod Association (NHRA) currently allows ethanol as an approved fuel in several of its racing classes. NHRA approved ethanol is allowed in their bracket classes, Hotrod, Modified, ProFWD, and ProRWD classes to name some of the more popular. At this time NHRA has not announced any plans to include E85 as an approved fuel in the classes that are currently limited to "pump fuels".
The Indy Racing League is likewise moving to ethanol based fuels in 2006, with 10% ethanol 90% methanol fuel blend, and switching to a 100% ethanol fuel in the 2007 racing season.
General Motors Performance Division's GM Student Cobalt driven by Mark Dickens went 172.680 mph at Bonneville Speed Weeks August 2006, setting a new record for G/FCC class on E85 fuel. This run broke a 19-year-old record of 152.626 mph set by Doc Jeffries in 1987. [7]
There is much discussion of NASCAR also making the switch to an ethanol based fuel in the future. During selected 2006 Craftsman Truck Series races, the Chevrolet Silverado pace truck, such as the one in the GM Flex-Fuel 250, will be fueled by E85, and a marketing campaign with Morgan-Dollar Motorsports resulted in one of their trucks' numbers changed to #85 to promote E85 fuel such as the one used in the pace truck.
In 2006, Shell announced V8 Supercar will use Shell Optimax Extreme, a premium unleaded fuel blended with five percent ethanol.
Interest in E85 is high enough that there are now competitions for engine builders to develop winning combinations for both power and fuel economy on this fuel. One such competition is sponsored by the AERA Engine Builders Association. [8].
Mar 28, 2007, 01:35 PM
#19
Keep an eye on blend changes, E85 can vary between 70-85% ethanol.. In the colder months when theres less ethanol in the mix you need to run less fuel, timing and boost and in the warmer months you'll need to add fuel and can run more timing/boost.
the blend schedule depends on your region, its in appendix A of this pdf
http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/pdfs/40243.pdf
the blend schedule depends on your region, its in appendix A of this pdf
http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/pdfs/40243.pdf
Mar 28, 2007, 01:40 PM
#20
1 = minimum 79% ethanol
2 = minimum 74% ethanol
3 = minimum 70% ethanol
its here too:
http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/e85t...e85_specs.html
edit:
I don't know how much of a change is needed to deal with the different blends.. I would like to hear anyones experiences.. please post if you run e85 year round!
Last edited by merkzu; Mar 28, 2007 at 01:55 PM.
Mar 28, 2007, 02:19 PM
#21
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Ultimate CC...thnx for the copy from wiki...so, new fuel lines, additional pump, bigger injectors, and remove all the rubber from the fuel system.
sounds like its to much to do just for a DD..........but will it make more power et. al. with the same mods...
sounds like its to much to do just for a DD..........but will it make more power et. al. with the same mods...
Mar 28, 2007, 11:20 PM
#23
I would have to do the Math but my DC is over 100% I know in some areas up top.
Boost is 26psi spike holding 22psi out the top.
No real milage test yet but it will be much worse. I burned through my last tank with tuning and lots of riping on it in about 150mi and I would get about 220mi drivng the same way before.
At the moment it will be hard to get real good milage test from me since I have my wife drive the 50mi to buy it and I fill a 55gal drum and than pump it from the drum to our car.
Once I get all the tuning done and do more normal driving I will pump the gas into a can and measure it and get a acurate milage test.
Boost is 26psi spike holding 22psi out the top.
No real milage test yet but it will be much worse. I burned through my last tank with tuning and lots of riping on it in about 150mi and I would get about 220mi drivng the same way before.
At the moment it will be hard to get real good milage test from me since I have my wife drive the 50mi to buy it and I fill a 55gal drum and than pump it from the drum to our car.
Once I get all the tuning done and do more normal driving I will pump the gas into a can and measure it and get a acurate milage test.
Mar 29, 2007, 05:17 AM
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so bottom line is...E85 is really only good for tracking the car...a good replacement over race gas. would you say streetablilty is not worth the cost to convert the car to E85? Im trying to get a good answer so everyone else can understand pros/cons to E85.
Yes it makes good numbers...but you burn more fuel doing it.
So if you looking for cheaper gas prices E85 is not the solution.
E85 could be used as an alternate "race gas"
would you say True statements?
Yes it makes good numbers...but you burn more fuel doing it.
So if you looking for cheaper gas prices E85 is not the solution.
E85 could be used as an alternate "race gas"
would you say True statements?
Mar 29, 2007, 05:28 AM
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so bottom line is...E85 is really only good for tracking the car...a good replacement over race gas. would you say streetablilty is not worth the cost to convert the car to E85? Im trying to get a good answer so everyone else can understand pros/cons to E85.
Yes it makes good numbers...but you burn more fuel doing it.
So if you looking for cheaper gas prices E85 is not the solution.
E85 could be used as an alternate "race gas"
would you say True statements?
Yes it makes good numbers...but you burn more fuel doing it.
So if you looking for cheaper gas prices E85 is not the solution.
E85 could be used as an alternate "race gas"
would you say True statements?
-Paul
Mar 29, 2007, 06:15 AM
#26
I don't know about E85 and EVO, but E85 and subaru's mix well. For the 06-07 WRX's is safe to run a 30% mix of E85 and 93 oct. I been doing this since my car had 500 miles on the clock, the car run better and stronger and it seems to spool a lot faster. The problem with E85 is corrosion and availability, but the is a gas station 5 minutes from my house. As soon as I change my turbo I plan to run 100% E85, I think you need bigger injector, new lines and fuel pump. Actually I think that David Bushur converted his brother's EVO to run 100% E85 he said that E85 is a very impressive fuel.
Mar 29, 2007, 08:49 AM
#29
Well if beats race gas in power. I would be 380whp is the most I could make on race gas.
If you have stations around you and know you can get to one all the time than its a no brainer to run it if you want the extra 50-100+hp. The car has more power every ware with it.
I just have a normal 255hp fuel pump and 780's so not to many mods to run it.
If you can do your own flashing switcing maps would not be to bad if you had to run gas.
I think the way I drive it may cost a few more $ per tank in the end but way worth the extra power to me.
If you have stations around you and know you can get to one all the time than its a no brainer to run it if you want the extra 50-100+hp. The car has more power every ware with it.
I just have a normal 255hp fuel pump and 780's so not to many mods to run it.
If you can do your own flashing switcing maps would not be to bad if you had to run gas.
I think the way I drive it may cost a few more $ per tank in the end but way worth the extra power to me.