Quest for 9's... Buschur Racing FTMFW!
Mar 30, 2008, 06:30 AM
#32
This cage builder should prefab the bends and sell a kit that someone could weld themselves or bring to their local welder. There are several shops that do that for miata cages. I bought all the pre-bent tubes for my miata for $500 and welded it myself. The guy would make a killing. That is the ultimate cage for most people looking to go 10's but don't want a "full" cage for a street car. $2000 is a good deal for the quality, fit and finish, but most people are not going to bring their cars to ohio. Or of course DB could strike a deal and sell the cage kit. Hint Hint.
Mar 30, 2008, 08:17 AM
#35
This cage builder should prefab the bends and sell a kit that someone could weld themselves or bring to their local welder. There are several shops that do that for miata cages. I bought all the pre-bent tubes for my miata for $500 and welded it myself. The guy would make a killing. That is the ultimate cage for most people looking to go 10's but don't want a "full" cage for a street car. $2000 is a good deal for the quality, fit and finish, but most people are not going to bring their cars to ohio. Or of course DB could strike a deal and sell the cage kit. Hint Hint.
, are spot on the reason why I did this. Plus I like to support a great company! Hence why where ever I live, I ship my car back to Waleman for the work.
Mar 30, 2008, 09:08 AM
#36
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Nick the cage looks great man congrats
What is the weight of this peice?
What other bars would be needed for a lets say 9.5's cage?
Buschur is the best with out a question
What is the weight of this peice?
What other bars would be needed for a lets say 9.5's cage?
Buschur is the best with out a question
Apr 5, 2008, 06:47 PM
#43
The rear bar design of this car is much stronger than a standard 4-5-6 point bar with the two short bars that run down on an angle to the floor normally. The extra protection of the bar built like this is rediculous compared to the typical method.
IF this car needs upgraded in the future it will only need the headache bar added, the passenger door bar and the two front bars, that was one of the ideas behind this so it doesn't have to be all ripped out later to start over.
IF this car needs upgraded in the future it will only need the headache bar added, the passenger door bar and the two front bars, that was one of the ideas behind this so it doesn't have to be all ripped out later to start over.
Apr 6, 2008, 07:03 AM
#45
I know you deleted what you typed. I think you are worried about how I react when someone disagrees
I am up for a good discussion though so let's go for it. Here's what you (evo8ltw)wrote that myself and anyone else in this thread had delivered to their in box (I am going to put my responses inside your response marked by **):
From EVO8LTW:
"I have to disagree with you and here's my reasoning. Back stays are generally required to have no bends for max strength and rigidity (see NASA and SCCA road race cage rules) and are kept relatively short and away from the roof."
**I think looking at anything NASA or SCCA does for a basic roll bar isn't a good example. Their rules are not nearly as strict as NHRA/IHRA's. You can put just about anything in the car, bolt in etc., and not get hassled. As a matter of fact if you take NASA TT for example there are very few/no rules for roll bars or cages in the TT classes. Also, if you look at the NHRA/IHRA rules a standard 5 point with the two rear bars only requires these two bars to be connected within 5" of the top of the hoop. For a street car the idea behind doing this was you can still use the back seat. I also feel this gives much more strength to the cage. (I realize you do not agree with this but let me continue) If you look at the roll cage rule which would contain the front bar around the roof, one more door bar, two rocker bars (I forgot about those in my last post) and the two front bars this would make this roll bar then legal to 7.50's. The key to that is the two straight bars you are describing now are completely elimated and the bars then run up along the roof to the rear. I know we are discussing but there is no way you can convince me letting the back of the roof smash in is a safer/better idea than the roll bar protecting the rear too. It is required as the speeds increase.
"Longer rear support bars like these that are mounted far from the main hoop can exert huge twisting forces on the main hoop if they move in a crash (their length gives them leverage). Even worse, this particular design places those bars flush against the rear section of the roof where they are likely to take significant downward force in a hard roll over, and turn that force into a severe rearward/downward torque on the main hoop, which you want to stay put at all costs. Wouldn't it be better for the rear of the roof to just crush and have that deformation dissipate some of the rollover impact and avoid jeopardizing the support for the main hoop? No one attemps to build a halo for the back seat area. That just doesn't make sense in any car.
**I got ahead of myself in my above response. As I said, I do not agree at all, the rear should not be allowed to smash in. If that was the case the rules and requirements of the cage wouldn't change as the speeds increase. The halo in the rear of the car does make sense. One for use of the rear seat, passenger safety and more structural integrity. Not sure it it was pictured or not but this cage also has another bar in between the two rear top bars to keep them seperated in case of a roll over.
"While those rear bars do bend downward to the trunk floor and are sitting on big foot plates, without support from other bars, or even each other, I just can't see them holding rock solid. They don't have the same sort of vertical rigidity as, say, the front bars on a full cage that work in concert with the main hoop and the rear backstays (which usually provide some upward support to the top of the main hoop) to hold up a halo bar. The front supports could counteract those forces from the rear bars somewhat, but probably not sufficiently since they are so much shorter (and therefore have less leverage on the main hoop).
**Ah ha! I bet the full picture of the rear bars isn't posted after reading this. I don't think you realize that the rear is designed with a "halo" bar in it on the roof. Also consider that if the rear bars were the shorter design that is typically used, when they are tied into the floor they just go on a single layer of sheetmetal with a 6"x6" pad under them. In the case of this design where they tie into the trunk they are on top of the "frame" rails in the rear, a TON stronger than just putting them on the floor of the car.
"Anyhow, I just can't see any advantage to that rear bar design, but I do see a clear structural disadvantage, plus it adds weight."
**Maybe after you read my opinion and consider the NHRA/IHRA rules you will change you mind. Also consider NASA and SCCA are poor examples of what is required at the entry level of racing. I do agree it added some weight, not more than 15 pounds. You also need to keep in mind that as I pointed out this design adds a huge advantage for a car such as this. This car is going to go faster than 10.00, making a standard 5 point illegal. When that time comes this will be easily upgraded to a cage that is legal with just the addition of a few more bars.
I am up for a good discussion though so let's go for it. Here's what you (evo8ltw)wrote that myself and anyone else in this thread had delivered to their in box (I am going to put my responses inside your response marked by **):From EVO8LTW:
"I have to disagree with you and here's my reasoning. Back stays are generally required to have no bends for max strength and rigidity (see NASA and SCCA road race cage rules) and are kept relatively short and away from the roof."
**I think looking at anything NASA or SCCA does for a basic roll bar isn't a good example. Their rules are not nearly as strict as NHRA/IHRA's. You can put just about anything in the car, bolt in etc., and not get hassled. As a matter of fact if you take NASA TT for example there are very few/no rules for roll bars or cages in the TT classes. Also, if you look at the NHRA/IHRA rules a standard 5 point with the two rear bars only requires these two bars to be connected within 5" of the top of the hoop. For a street car the idea behind doing this was you can still use the back seat. I also feel this gives much more strength to the cage. (I realize you do not agree with this but let me continue) If you look at the roll cage rule which would contain the front bar around the roof, one more door bar, two rocker bars (I forgot about those in my last post) and the two front bars this would make this roll bar then legal to 7.50's. The key to that is the two straight bars you are describing now are completely elimated and the bars then run up along the roof to the rear. I know we are discussing but there is no way you can convince me letting the back of the roof smash in is a safer/better idea than the roll bar protecting the rear too. It is required as the speeds increase.
"Longer rear support bars like these that are mounted far from the main hoop can exert huge twisting forces on the main hoop if they move in a crash (their length gives them leverage). Even worse, this particular design places those bars flush against the rear section of the roof where they are likely to take significant downward force in a hard roll over, and turn that force into a severe rearward/downward torque on the main hoop, which you want to stay put at all costs. Wouldn't it be better for the rear of the roof to just crush and have that deformation dissipate some of the rollover impact and avoid jeopardizing the support for the main hoop? No one attemps to build a halo for the back seat area. That just doesn't make sense in any car.
**I got ahead of myself in my above response. As I said, I do not agree at all, the rear should not be allowed to smash in. If that was the case the rules and requirements of the cage wouldn't change as the speeds increase. The halo in the rear of the car does make sense. One for use of the rear seat, passenger safety and more structural integrity. Not sure it it was pictured or not but this cage also has another bar in between the two rear top bars to keep them seperated in case of a roll over.
"While those rear bars do bend downward to the trunk floor and are sitting on big foot plates, without support from other bars, or even each other, I just can't see them holding rock solid. They don't have the same sort of vertical rigidity as, say, the front bars on a full cage that work in concert with the main hoop and the rear backstays (which usually provide some upward support to the top of the main hoop) to hold up a halo bar. The front supports could counteract those forces from the rear bars somewhat, but probably not sufficiently since they are so much shorter (and therefore have less leverage on the main hoop).
**Ah ha! I bet the full picture of the rear bars isn't posted after reading this. I don't think you realize that the rear is designed with a "halo" bar in it on the roof. Also consider that if the rear bars were the shorter design that is typically used, when they are tied into the floor they just go on a single layer of sheetmetal with a 6"x6" pad under them. In the case of this design where they tie into the trunk they are on top of the "frame" rails in the rear, a TON stronger than just putting them on the floor of the car.
"Anyhow, I just can't see any advantage to that rear bar design, but I do see a clear structural disadvantage, plus it adds weight."
**Maybe after you read my opinion and consider the NHRA/IHRA rules you will change you mind. Also consider NASA and SCCA are poor examples of what is required at the entry level of racing. I do agree it added some weight, not more than 15 pounds. You also need to keep in mind that as I pointed out this design adds a huge advantage for a car such as this. This car is going to go faster than 10.00, making a standard 5 point illegal. When that time comes this will be easily upgraded to a cage that is legal with just the addition of a few more bars.