like i said....some are caught up with hear say or what was said or whatever....and some just know how it works....in a war of words and past quotes and how they are peaced together , you can make anyone look like a total fool....

 

see how easy it is.....ha ha ha ha

 

Ah.. the old dyno tech article. This has been brought up before on this forum and the answer is the same. That tech story was written years ago and only applied to when we used a third party dynojet for our dyno testing. As I've said a number of times before, we do use temp corrections since the Dyno Dynamics temp compensation strategies are a bit more realistic than that of the Dynojet since the read temp at both air inlet and room.

And the humidity bit still applies. Always has and always will. The same reason the use of water injection is used for knock surpression and thermal management. Basicially trading off some volumetric efficiency for a bit more ign. advance and the resultant bump in thermal efficiency. But that's old news.

BTW, the purpose of that tech article was to point out all the ways a dyno can be used and misused. And to draw light up on SAE correction strategies that don't always work as well as some would otherwise believe. Of course, being the SF Bay, it's between 70-85 degrees at our shop most of the year around so using or not using correction factors really doesn't have too much of an impact. Our CF usually only varies from 1.02-1.04, FWIW. When I lived in TX and used Dynojets, they would vary from 1.0 to 1.1 depending on the time of day.

As always, YMMV....
shiv

 

Shiv, thanks for your contributions to Evo tuning and this forum, but I think Silver Surfer raised at least one good point.
When you (and this should include everyone) post dyno results, can you include the environmental conditions and the correction factor used by the dyno for that run? Maybe you could publish the uncorrected numbers and let people correct for themselves in whatever manner they wish, since no one here seems to agree on much, most of the time.

 

I'll be happy to. But l said, living at sea level in the SF bay area, we don't see much in the way of big correction factor swings. Nothing like one would see in less temperate states FWIW, during a mapping session, I check the realtime atmos. correction factor after every 3rd or 4th run to make sure the intake temp sensor isn't being tweaked by hot air from the engine fans or other random events. It's a pain in the **** to spend 3 hours tuning for one early "magic run" that was only achievable only due to sensor "error". The tech story that Silver Surfer refers to can be seen at http://www.vishnutuning.com/dynos_dont_lie.htm

It covers most of the ways dynos can be used and misused.

Cheers,
shiv

 

I still rely on the one true dyno - the butt dyno. As long as that is putting out big numbers, I am happy.

Shiv, do you allow for some variation with the butt dyno?

 

Al, I didn't know that the $349.00 Works Aperture came with 10 "extra free HP". Is this a limited time offer or will the 10 extra ones always be free? How much HP will you get if they stop giving you the 10 extra free ones?

Every mod you post is your "favorite evo mod yet." Wait two weeks and that favorite mod is sure to appear in the For Sale forum.

Your car may be very fast but your credibility is questionable. A search through the archives quickly highlights two things; 1) You are an endorsement ***** and 2) You are an endorsement ***** with convictions as you will NEVER say a good word about Vishnu no matter what they do.

Stick to the mods Al and leave the commentary for others who are less blatantly biased.

 

I also lived in the Bay area at one time, you may find the following verifiable data quite interesting. The web site is http://www.weather.com , these examples of temperature and humidity shifts appear typical for these areas, this time of year.

Here is the hourly National Weather forcast for tommorow in Sunny Pleasanton, CA (94588)


Hourly Forecast 12-Hour Forecast Always on Your Desktop

Tuesday, Aug 19 Temp °F Humid.

7 AM Partly 59° 91%

8 AM Partly 62° 84%

9 AM Partly 66° 74%

10 AM Mostly 71° 62%

11 AM Sunny 77° 50%

12 PM Sunny 82° 41%

1 PM Sunny 87° 34%

2 PM Sunny 90° 30%

3 PM Sunny 91° 29%

4 PM Sunny 90° 31%

5 PM Sunny 87° 34%

6 PM Sunny 84° 39%

7 PM Sunny 81° 45%

As you can see, just from early morning to late afternoon the temerature varies 32 degrees F and humidity 61%, hows that for stable?

Temp and humidity fluctuation for Dallas tommorow? 21 degrees F and 44% humidity. You don't have to take my word for it, look it up yourself.

Here is the same data for Dallas TX

7 AM Sunny 78° 77%

8 AM Sunny 79° 74%

9 AM Sunny 82° 68%

10 AM Sunny 85° 61%

11 AM Sunny 89° 53%

12 PM Mostly 93° 46%

1 PM Mostly 96° 40%

2 PM Mostly 98° 36%

3 PM Mostly 99° 34%

4 PM Mostly 99° 33%

5 PM Sunny 98° 33%

6 PM Sunny 96° 34%

7 PM Sunny 94° 37%

Yes, but some make it easier than others. And um, I did not piece together any sentences. These are his thoughts/statements intact as he ment them.
I am sure he's a great guy, with wonderful products, and that he helps lots of people. But when he starts attacking others, and becomes so arrogant to assume that he knows more than every one else, especially people he doesn't even know, well he's just asking for it.

Kind regards,

Eric

Oh and what does YMMV mean?

 

If you mean that our AWD dyno reads differently from an AWD Dynojet, yes, you are correct. One measures all wheel ouput properly and the other does not.

The idea of converting a 2wd inertial dyno to an AWD inertial dyno by adding on another drum of different mass and size is inherently flawed by any technical definition. Throw in the fact that these dynos have no kind of fore-aft wheelspeed control and you have a poorly designed dyno that doesn't replicate real world conditions. Can you tune on it? Yep. Can you compare it to other dynos of the same type? Of course.

But unless you drive in environments where your front and rear wheels constantly spin at grossly different speeds, don't expect it to provide an accurate representation of how much power the car puts to the ground on a real surface.

Can you give me a reason as to why these gross operational flaws should be overlooked? Last time I checked, intertial dynos operate on a rather simple principle. A principle which is somewhat bastardized when using two massively heavy rollers of grossly different size and mass being speed regulated by a tiny viscous-coupled, clutch-type or dog-engaging center differential.

Shiv

PS. Just saw your last post. Thanks for the whether update. It's 5:15pm and 81 degrees with 41% humidty in our dyno shop. It's been this temp and humidity (plus or minus a few ticks) for the last 4 hours. I'll let you know tomorrow if the weather station's predictions are right for our in-shop conditions. Also, keep in mind that dynojets and dyno dynamics dynos calculate CF differently with different sensor placement. Comparing meteorological conditions is fun but the biggest differences come from differences in internal CF strategies. The correction methods used by the DD dyno keeps CF within a smaller window than that of a Dynojet subject to the same atmos. variances.

PSS. YMMV=your mileage may vary

 

I was rolling on this one, we love ya Big Al, but I think he nailed on this one

Can't we all just get along

 

Shiv,

Regarding the dyno, I think you and I have already been through this argument (making 300HP thread). I believe you finally conceded some of my points, and we just agreed to disagree on others. Do you want disscuss this again? I would love too.

I am trying to be more open minded regarding your dyno tests, with the third gear pulls and the 15% correction that your dyno does not believe in, your numbers actually started to jive for me. While I know your vast experience has taught you certain things in this field I would ask that you also try to keep an open mind and attempt to understand our/my prospective.

Kind regards,

Eric

 

Could you please refresh my memory about that thread? Or add a link for it. Also, I'm still eager to hear your opinion with regards to the fundamental measuring problems with regards to mis-matched for and aft Dynojet rollers. You routinely state that my dyno test results are invalid yet skate around the real issues that face AWD Dynojets which make them inadequate tools for actually measuring wheel hp.

Shiv

 

And how does that differ from what we have seen on this thread? No baseline from the Works modified car here either, yet we are quantifying the performance increases mmeasured from the stock baseline of another car.That too is misleading.

(Here comes the rant part)

Here I go again...If the results were not measured from the same car, on the same day, on the same dyno, under similar atmospheric conditions, using similar units of measure (yup even Als work here) it doesn't mean squat, zip, nada, nothing.

Can you hear me now?

All the moaning, arguing, bashing, complaining, whining, etc... in the world are not going to change that.

Can you still hear me?

This thread was about the Works Brain ECU reflash AFRs. An honest attempt to go one better and additionally provide quantifiable data on performance gains was not conducted in a scientific manner and the results have been misrepresented by both sides of this discussion to support emotional exchanges that have no basis in fact.

Fact: the Works Brain reflash AFRs look safe. Thank you, end of scientific facts, end of meaningful discussion.

Can we please move on?

I cannot help but wonder if the transformation of this originally meaningful thread, from a post of technical interest to a pointless exchange and venue for vendor bashing and dead horse beating was a factot leading to Claudius' exit from the forum.

Everyone needs to take a deep breath and refocus on what is important to the membership of this forum.

(End of rant)

For those of you who stayed till the end, thank you for induldging me.

 

Actually, NO - WE CAN'T MOVE ON, at least according to my book. Just because an engine survived a dyno run doesn't mean it "looks safe." Doesn't anybody nowadays know how to monitor knock? Dr. John B. Heywood at MIT, who's written the textbook ("Internal Combustion Engine Fundamentals") that EVERY powertrain engineer had to endure in college says at p.454: "Many methods of knock detection and characterization have been used. The human ear is a surprisingly sensitive knock detector and is routinely used in determining the octane requirement of an engine—the required fuel quality the engine must have to avoid knock."

So, I ask, again - was there any attempt to measure knock during these dyno runs? Det cans? Knock sensor hooked up to an amplifier? Some way/any way for the tuner to judge whether knock was occuring?

 

https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...5&pagenumber=2

There you go, we already discussed this very point you claim I am skating. If I am correct, your Basic supposition is that due to the different masses and lack of a connection/speed control between the two rollers, to much hp to be eaten up in the center diff? Is that right?

My points were; 1. Not all AWD dyno jets use two different size rollers, 2. Rotating a fixed given mass is a very simple, reliable and accurate method to measure HP, not to mention it is the standard that every one relate too. 3. Even with two different size rollers, while it will undoubtedly add more stress to the center diff, there is no actual proof to indicate that it creates a significant inaccuracy or damages the center diff.

Why do you suppose your dyno reads higher in lower gears, when all others I have seen read higher?



Any of this ringing a bell?



I also made several points and sighted examples that indicated the complexity of your dyno could make ultimate HP/TQ measurements inaccurate, especially compared to the tried and true Dyno Jet.
How can you sit there and say your tests are more accurate than everyone else's when you keep using just the one piece of test equipment, especially when it does not seem to agree with any one else? Not even the only other system like in the country.

I could be wrong, and everyone else in the country could be wrong and your loan measuring stick could be the only accurate method in the country. I just have not seen verifiable evidence that proves this to be true. Just because you say so, doesn't do for me.