An Inconvenient Truth… About JDM - aka "The Death of Innovation"
Jul 31, 2008 | 05:45 PM
#91
I totally agree with 201 Motorsports in post #57. I can't even remember how much overtime I used to work just to get that authentic JDM part for my integra. I used to stay at home when all of my friends would go out just so I could save some extra money to get that one part. I bought nothing but TODA, SPOON SPORTS, and MUGEN parts for my integra. Sure most people thought spending $750 for a real Mugen Valve cover was crazy but it made me feel good knowing that I had the real deal and not a knockoff. There is nothing like being able to drive a car with mostly high quality JDM parts on your car. Of course when you sell the car you lose a crap load of money but in the end you get the satisfaction of knowing you were able to enjoy having a badass car with JDM parts. It sucks that Voltex has decided to stop selling that hood in wet carbon. At least those who have the hood will know that they have a rare *** JDM part.
Last edited by JDMCT9MR; Jul 31, 2008 at 05:47 PM.
Jul 31, 2008 | 06:22 PM
#92
I totally agree with 201 Motorsports in post #57. I can't even remember how much overtime I used to work just to get that authentic JDM part for my integra. I used to stay at home when all of my friends would go out just so I could save some extra money to get that one part. I bought nothing but TODA, SPOON SPORTS, and MUGEN parts for my integra. Sure most people thought spending $750 for a real Mugen Valve cover was crazy but it made me feel good knowing that I had the real deal and not a knockoff. There is nothing like being able to drive a car with mostly high quality JDM parts on your car. Of course when you sell the car you lose a crap load of money but in the end you get the satisfaction of knowing you were able to enjoy having a badass car with JDM parts. It sucks that Voltex has decided to stop selling that hood in wet carbon. At least those who have the hood will know that they have a rare *** JDM part.
I would call that being a "label-*****"!! Screw that!!
Jul 31, 2008 | 07:53 PM
#93
It was nice to have all the rare Mugen stuff on my integra. The only part that sucked was the fear of the car being stolen do to all the JDM goodies.
Jul 31, 2008 | 08:37 PM
#94
IMO, yes it is unfair to 'steal' someone's design/product and make a huge production of it and sell them under someone's else name.
Let see from JDM's side;
1: Unfair.
2: Its normal, people do take short-cuts when they do business. (Who doesn't want to be rich the faster way? Good example of short-cut richness = gambling lol)
3: It costs JDM COMPANIES alot of money and stuff in R&D and keep in mind that factories are super duper expensive in Japan(any part of it; maintenance for the machines, cost of running it, labor & the rest that you can named it.) So it leads to an expensive productions.
XYZ's side;
1: Why not help those who want to make some modifications possible by selling some 'similar' item which cost less
2: I am able to make that, why not make some money of out it. I modify a lil bit here and there and make it my production line.
I always remember that my teacher told me once about;
"To be fair, there must be unfairness"
I believe that vendors here have some kind of agreement where they aren't not allowed to sell anything so low(even if they could sell it that low) that it can destroy other vendor's business.
Oh ya, the other thing. Voltex may think this way too; Why should I care about those people who are copying my products and mass production them? Sooner or later people would realize that they SHOULD buy mine because of my quality? I am selling the best quality for customer's money? In other hand, how many people would keep their heads high and long enough once others know that he is using non-original stuff?
IDK, may be voltex has stop selling it because of S&D factor?
Let see from JDM's side;
1: Unfair.
2: Its normal, people do take short-cuts when they do business. (Who doesn't want to be rich the faster way? Good example of short-cut richness = gambling lol)
3: It costs JDM COMPANIES alot of money and stuff in R&D and keep in mind that factories are super duper expensive in Japan(any part of it; maintenance for the machines, cost of running it, labor & the rest that you can named it.) So it leads to an expensive productions.
XYZ's side;
1: Why not help those who want to make some modifications possible by selling some 'similar' item which cost less
2: I am able to make that, why not make some money of out it. I modify a lil bit here and there and make it my production line.
I always remember that my teacher told me once about;
"To be fair, there must be unfairness"
I believe that vendors here have some kind of agreement where they aren't not allowed to sell anything so low(even if they could sell it that low) that it can destroy other vendor's business.
Oh ya, the other thing. Voltex may think this way too; Why should I care about those people who are copying my products and mass production them? Sooner or later people would realize that they SHOULD buy mine because of my quality? I am selling the best quality for customer's money? In other hand, how many people would keep their heads high and long enough once others know that he is using non-original stuff?
IDK, may be voltex has stop selling it because of S&D factor?
Jul 31, 2008 | 08:44 PM
#95
I completely agree with a lot of the points the OP makes and it really does suck for a company like voltex to make such a high quality hood.
However, the only thing that i'd like to point out is that it is no way a moral obligation of the consumer to uphold any sense of moral code in their purchases.
Take this hood for example. Some guy in Virginia sees it and loves it, but realizes that he can't shell out the 1300 dollars for it even if it is worth every penny.
He then sees the seibon hood, much ****tier in weaver with a ****ty *** clearcoat to boot. However, its only 500 bucks from a local vendor. Is it wrong for the guy to buy a part he wants? Its not part of his duty to ensure that voltex sees the financial return that he deserves. I understand that this is one lone scenario, but it is a collage of these separate scenarios that fuel the knockoff market.
Now lets look at the whole rexpeed thing where the quality is actually up to par with the original jdm parts. Yes it sux that alot of there stuff are blatant copies of other items. However, the quality is second to none. Now the lone customer is faced with either paying 200 for a rexpeed part and 450 for the "authentic" part that is of the same quality. Again its not wrong to choose the cheaper option. As a customer and an individual, our priority goes something like this. Supporting those we love, supporting ourselves, using our spare money to finance a hobby... etc etc. And trust me when I say that spending an extra 250 so that a highly prestigious company gets the proper return for r&d is the least of our worries.
Furthermore, it also has to be stated that although the evo is a performance car, it is not a pure RACE car. 90 percent of us use it as a dd rather than a weekend race car. That being said, most of the guys on this forum couldn't care less if voltex stops innovating with wind tunneled parts. Because most of us buy a hood for looks. (don't argue with me on this, if it was any other way, then why do so many evo owners replace the light *** aluminum hood for the just as heavy ****ty made seibon ones). Therefore we don't care about the half second the hood might shave off our trip to ralphs.
I'm just giving you my point of view from a customers perspective. I completely agree with you on how much it sucks for certain companies. However, thats an issue that should be taken care of internally or legally. Customers don't have any said moral obligation to ensure that companies get proper returns. Only thing that governs our purchases in a free market is supply and demand.
However, the only thing that i'd like to point out is that it is no way a moral obligation of the consumer to uphold any sense of moral code in their purchases.
Take this hood for example. Some guy in Virginia sees it and loves it, but realizes that he can't shell out the 1300 dollars for it even if it is worth every penny.
He then sees the seibon hood, much ****tier in weaver with a ****ty *** clearcoat to boot. However, its only 500 bucks from a local vendor. Is it wrong for the guy to buy a part he wants? Its not part of his duty to ensure that voltex sees the financial return that he deserves. I understand that this is one lone scenario, but it is a collage of these separate scenarios that fuel the knockoff market.
Now lets look at the whole rexpeed thing where the quality is actually up to par with the original jdm parts. Yes it sux that alot of there stuff are blatant copies of other items. However, the quality is second to none. Now the lone customer is faced with either paying 200 for a rexpeed part and 450 for the "authentic" part that is of the same quality. Again its not wrong to choose the cheaper option. As a customer and an individual, our priority goes something like this. Supporting those we love, supporting ourselves, using our spare money to finance a hobby... etc etc. And trust me when I say that spending an extra 250 so that a highly prestigious company gets the proper return for r&d is the least of our worries.
Furthermore, it also has to be stated that although the evo is a performance car, it is not a pure RACE car. 90 percent of us use it as a dd rather than a weekend race car. That being said, most of the guys on this forum couldn't care less if voltex stops innovating with wind tunneled parts. Because most of us buy a hood for looks. (don't argue with me on this, if it was any other way, then why do so many evo owners replace the light *** aluminum hood for the just as heavy ****ty made seibon ones). Therefore we don't care about the half second the hood might shave off our trip to ralphs.
I'm just giving you my point of view from a customers perspective. I completely agree with you on how much it sucks for certain companies. However, thats an issue that should be taken care of internally or legally. Customers don't have any said moral obligation to ensure that companies get proper returns. Only thing that governs our purchases in a free market is supply and demand.
and to all you vendors by all means am i not trying to get on you im just trying to show you the point that US the comsumers feel and i know im not alone.
Last edited by donmeca2020; Jul 31, 2008 at 08:51 PM.
Jul 31, 2008 | 08:54 PM
#97
Jul 31, 2008 | 09:44 PM
#100
Thread Starter
Former Sponsor
iTrader: (181)
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,681
Likes: 0
From: Glendale, CA
We are guilty of it ourselves. Honestly, the JDP portion was more or less considerable for me to help out a friend. We no longer do any business with JDP, for many reasons more than one (and this has nothing against John, or his company), but we do feel that we should start taking a stronger stance on staying true to what we believe in. In the past it was more of an opportunity to expand our companies name and reach a larger clientele.
Jul 31, 2008 | 10:50 PM
#102
Evolving Member
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 112
Likes: 0
From: Australia
My personal fear is that companies with real engineering expertise (in this case specifically ARP and Earls) will be put out of business by cheap and inferior Chinese hardware.
Not many people really understand the difference between a Chinese bolt and a genuine ARP one for example, and so don't see the harm in buying this Chinese hardware.
It will be a sad day when companies with that level of expertise go under.
Not many people really understand the difference between a Chinese bolt and a genuine ARP one for example, and so don't see the harm in buying this Chinese hardware.
It will be a sad day when companies with that level of expertise go under.
Jul 31, 2008 | 11:26 PM
#103
I apologize if I repeat anything that someone else has touched on.
As someone who is in the automotive manufacturing community (although not performance parts) there are some points that I need to make.
1) The US dollar is extremely weak. Anything manufactured in the United States will be effectively cheaper than import products, especially products from 1st world countries. Because of this, the $1800 hood 3 years ago had a significant more profit than it currently has.
For example, 5 years ago, the Canadian dollar was worth approximately 70 percent of the US dollar, at one point recently it was worth the same.
A Canadian company selling their product to the US 5 years ago would get about $135 Canadian for a product sold at $100 American. Now that same product is worth $100 Canadian.
There is a few things you can do directly related to pricing. The two big ones are raise the wholesale price to cover the deflated US dollar or EAT the profit to continue selling the numbers you are moving.
2) Fuel costs have reached record levels(obviously). Shipping finished, bulky product is extremely expensive. Compound the price of fuel and US dollar and this cost is increased significantly.
3) I would venture to say that Seibon has similar net profits per piece than Voltex does.
4) Patents are worthless when there are dozens of manufacturers in the same field with a relative small amount of gross income. It is too expensive and difficult to prosecute. Just based on the fact that if it is changed slightly, one could argue they are not infringing.
We hold patents that would require patent rights on 15% of vehicles on the road.
From my understanding, we are paid almost nothing. There are a few hundred manufacturers of the products we hold patents on.
5) Most manufacturers work off of a net profit usually less than 5%. Yes, raw materials are cheap, but I promise you, I am not.
Don't forget that you have raw material cost, labor cost(in all parts of the business), shipping, sales, marketing, administration, warranty, development, engineering, building and fixture overhead, insurance, legal, etc.....
Oh yeah, don't forget, that product you are buying has profit for the retailer too.....
Sometimes its 5 percent sometimess it is 200 percent.
6) The market will only bare so many people willing to pay that much money for a product that expensive. Most people that own these and other performance vehicles do not trailer queen the car. Most consumers are unwilling to pay 3x or 4x times the price for the extra ten percent performance offered in premium products. That is why Vizio and Panasonic are the best selling tvs now, b/c they are $1000. You can get a better product, but it will cost you 3k or more for a Pioneer Elite Plasma or similar.
When I purchased a hood, it was not worth it to me to pay $1500 for the Chargespeed CF hood I wanted, instead I purchased the more economical FRP version. I still skipped passed the Seibon, b/c I wanted a superior product(mostly for style and longevity) and was willing to pay more for it.
7) It is extremely rare for the most expensive to be the best selling, period.
Mercedes vs Hyundai
Tiffany vs Zales
I am not on either side of this. I had some expensive, "best" parts on my car and I had economical, well performing parts on my car.
I can tell you, when I see someone copying our name and our product, there are a range of emotions. Pissed, flattered, shocked, vengeful...... but sometimes that product is pretty good, sometimes it is horrible.
If Voltex wanted to take market share, they would send two or three people to the states, hire a few laborers and open a facility here to reduce cost. Not all companies exist to take over the world, I would imagine that is why that has not happened. Mo' Money, Mo' problems.....
As someone who is in the automotive manufacturing community (although not performance parts) there are some points that I need to make.
1) The US dollar is extremely weak. Anything manufactured in the United States will be effectively cheaper than import products, especially products from 1st world countries. Because of this, the $1800 hood 3 years ago had a significant more profit than it currently has.
For example, 5 years ago, the Canadian dollar was worth approximately 70 percent of the US dollar, at one point recently it was worth the same.
A Canadian company selling their product to the US 5 years ago would get about $135 Canadian for a product sold at $100 American. Now that same product is worth $100 Canadian.
There is a few things you can do directly related to pricing. The two big ones are raise the wholesale price to cover the deflated US dollar or EAT the profit to continue selling the numbers you are moving.
2) Fuel costs have reached record levels(obviously). Shipping finished, bulky product is extremely expensive. Compound the price of fuel and US dollar and this cost is increased significantly.
3) I would venture to say that Seibon has similar net profits per piece than Voltex does.
4) Patents are worthless when there are dozens of manufacturers in the same field with a relative small amount of gross income. It is too expensive and difficult to prosecute. Just based on the fact that if it is changed slightly, one could argue they are not infringing.
We hold patents that would require patent rights on 15% of vehicles on the road.
From my understanding, we are paid almost nothing. There are a few hundred manufacturers of the products we hold patents on.
5) Most manufacturers work off of a net profit usually less than 5%. Yes, raw materials are cheap, but I promise you, I am not.
Don't forget that you have raw material cost, labor cost(in all parts of the business), shipping, sales, marketing, administration, warranty, development, engineering, building and fixture overhead, insurance, legal, etc.....
Oh yeah, don't forget, that product you are buying has profit for the retailer too.....
Sometimes its 5 percent sometimess it is 200 percent.
6) The market will only bare so many people willing to pay that much money for a product that expensive. Most people that own these and other performance vehicles do not trailer queen the car. Most consumers are unwilling to pay 3x or 4x times the price for the extra ten percent performance offered in premium products. That is why Vizio and Panasonic are the best selling tvs now, b/c they are $1000. You can get a better product, but it will cost you 3k or more for a Pioneer Elite Plasma or similar.
When I purchased a hood, it was not worth it to me to pay $1500 for the Chargespeed CF hood I wanted, instead I purchased the more economical FRP version. I still skipped passed the Seibon, b/c I wanted a superior product(mostly for style and longevity) and was willing to pay more for it.
7) It is extremely rare for the most expensive to be the best selling, period.
Mercedes vs Hyundai
Tiffany vs Zales
I am not on either side of this. I had some expensive, "best" parts on my car and I had economical, well performing parts on my car.
I can tell you, when I see someone copying our name and our product, there are a range of emotions. Pissed, flattered, shocked, vengeful...... but sometimes that product is pretty good, sometimes it is horrible.
If Voltex wanted to take market share, they would send two or three people to the states, hire a few laborers and open a facility here to reduce cost. Not all companies exist to take over the world, I would imagine that is why that has not happened. Mo' Money, Mo' problems.....
It was a great read!