A growing division
Oct 27, 2008, 09:39 PM
#31
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Side note story then a point.
While ago a company (True story BTW) made a twin turbo kit for the NSX when it was first release. Twin BB turbos, IC, PC'd pipes, lines fittings, the whole shebang. They were actually able to bring the product to market for around 4500.00 and make a tidy profit. One problem. None of the NSX owners wanted to pay that. They wanted to pay around 7000.00 and considered a kit that cost less to be inferior even if it was the exact same components. So the company included a buyer mark up and sold it around 7K, not because it was worth it, even with the R&D and overhead included, but because that's what the buyers wanted to pay. People would be surprised how often this is factored into pricing.
Flash forward to today. Some reputable company builds a part, say a downpipe and sells it for 250.00. In 3 months the DP is going to be copied and sold on Ebay by a company in some country with no patent laws for 1/5 the price. Quality will suffer a bit but overall, same thing. The difference? We don't drive 70,000.00 cars. So some of us want to pay alot, and some not so much.
But as to who is at fault here? The infringing company who pays some greasemonkey 50 cents to weld a copied DP up, or the reputable company who didn't plan several generations in advance for this very instance, ready to release a new version once the old one had been beat to death at the online auction house? The large and honest manufacturers know two things. One, someone will copy their product and produce it for much less without any of the costs of R&D etc, and two they need to stay ahead of the curve.
Quality and name brand only stand on their own if you back it up. Look at ARC. Who makes Ti IC pipes other than ARC? They can charge what they want for them as well and do. We all know it, and that commitment to quality is reflected in the price of their aluminum IC pipes. And go on Ebay and you'll see the exact same aluminum IC pipe without the ARC plate for 1/5 the cost. We make purchases based on one of a few things. Low cost, quality, name brand or power, and you can't have all of them. And yes in many cases quality and brand name are exclusive.
The brand name guys will always bag on the low cost guys and vice versa. But you can't argue with quality and power. That's why we invented the parts review section. The short of it is, if it works, run it. If it breaks, hope it wasn't some knock off. If it makes good power tell somebody and if it's a POS, let everyone know.
/brox
While ago a company (True story BTW) made a twin turbo kit for the NSX when it was first release. Twin BB turbos, IC, PC'd pipes, lines fittings, the whole shebang. They were actually able to bring the product to market for around 4500.00 and make a tidy profit. One problem. None of the NSX owners wanted to pay that. They wanted to pay around 7000.00 and considered a kit that cost less to be inferior even if it was the exact same components. So the company included a buyer mark up and sold it around 7K, not because it was worth it, even with the R&D and overhead included, but because that's what the buyers wanted to pay. People would be surprised how often this is factored into pricing.
Flash forward to today. Some reputable company builds a part, say a downpipe and sells it for 250.00. In 3 months the DP is going to be copied and sold on Ebay by a company in some country with no patent laws for 1/5 the price. Quality will suffer a bit but overall, same thing. The difference? We don't drive 70,000.00 cars. So some of us want to pay alot, and some not so much.
But as to who is at fault here? The infringing company who pays some greasemonkey 50 cents to weld a copied DP up, or the reputable company who didn't plan several generations in advance for this very instance, ready to release a new version once the old one had been beat to death at the online auction house? The large and honest manufacturers know two things. One, someone will copy their product and produce it for much less without any of the costs of R&D etc, and two they need to stay ahead of the curve.
Quality and name brand only stand on their own if you back it up. Look at ARC. Who makes Ti IC pipes other than ARC? They can charge what they want for them as well and do. We all know it, and that commitment to quality is reflected in the price of their aluminum IC pipes. And go on Ebay and you'll see the exact same aluminum IC pipe without the ARC plate for 1/5 the cost. We make purchases based on one of a few things. Low cost, quality, name brand or power, and you can't have all of them. And yes in many cases quality and brand name are exclusive.
The brand name guys will always bag on the low cost guys and vice versa. But you can't argue with quality and power. That's why we invented the parts review section. The short of it is, if it works, run it. If it breaks, hope it wasn't some knock off. If it makes good power tell somebody and if it's a POS, let everyone know.
/brox
Oct 27, 2008, 09:42 PM
#32
Sorry, but it's not only Chinese does produce some knock-offs and copycat stuffs. Take Seibon as an example.. even Voltex has announced something that is due to the heavily produced of replicas from USA, mainly Seibon. Rexspeed also does produce knock-off items.. what the heck is Ralliart-style? That is knock-off.. It's just a replica of the real one which has undergone many money of R&D..
Oct 27, 2008, 09:52 PM
#33
Personally, the way I see it, this will never end... just like football and politics. Certain types of people will ALWAYS blindly champion their views relentlessly. Got no better chance of bringing and end to racism than you do of ending product bias. It's no different anywhere because people are involved. Therefore their personal biases will always be there no matter how they were acquired.
For the record, I was INVOLVED in Megan's USDM Evo turboback development starting at it's inception... I still have an original prototype on my own Evo. So, um, there was no product copied. As for the manifold that I won't sell... came from the same manufacturer who made them for an earlier brand.
Wow, it's nice being involved in normal stuff... I've missed it.
For the record, I was INVOLVED in Megan's USDM Evo turboback development starting at it's inception... I still have an original prototype on my own Evo. So, um, there was no product copied. As for the manifold that I won't sell... came from the same manufacturer who made them for an earlier brand.
Wow, it's nice being involved in normal stuff... I've missed it.
Oct 27, 2008, 10:06 PM
#34
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Ofcourse...People have preferences, that's what individualism is all about. I can honestly say if we produced a part with a known problem it would be pulled from the shelves. Yes, nothing is perfect things happen mistakes are made, but to keep producing a known inferiorly manufactured product is not good business. Take for instance another company that produced an Evo manifold that had problems, said company stopped selling them and re-designed them. however; Megan continues to produce these poorly made Evo Manifolds. We in-fact TIG welded up one for a friend tonight, it was cracked in 2 places...
With all due respect an cat back exhaust system shouldn't be considered innovative. But you are correct IMHO opinion a cat back exhaust system is just that; a muffler and a pipe. Not much there for debate but personal preference as to sound, looks...
And Quality Innovative Design and Customer Service will stand the test of time; however there will always be that person looking for a bargain. It is our responsibility to remind these bargain hunters/buyers of the inherent dangers/problems with "some" of these cheap products. (which it appears there are vendors that won't sell certain products)...
With all due respect an cat back exhaust system shouldn't be considered innovative. But you are correct IMHO opinion a cat back exhaust system is just that; a muffler and a pipe. Not much there for debate but personal preference as to sound, looks...
And Quality Innovative Design and Customer Service will stand the test of time; however there will always be that person looking for a bargain. It is our responsibility to remind these bargain hunters/buyers of the inherent dangers/problems with "some" of these cheap products. (which it appears there are vendors that won't sell certain products)...
Oct 27, 2008, 10:06 PM
#35
BTW... there are GREAT products offered by the vendors on this board... You can't go wrong buying them. However, don't think your uber expensive "JDM" part WILL perform better than theirs, cause it may not. Last time I checked, the people around here are making some pretty spectacular power, with solid products!
Oct 27, 2008, 10:17 PM
#36
Also, I don't recall the point of the thread having ANYTHING to do with innovation. At least the OP didn't post so. NVmySKILS made two posts, the crux being that people ARE going to buy parts that are less expensive/less "popular" than others. So why can't we quit discriminating against those people? It's bad enough that the "blindly faithful" have to try and ram their "supirior intellenct" down Average Joe's throat, but many times it the vendors doing the same thing. There's making friends and influencing people...
Last edited by Zeus; Oct 27, 2008 at 10:20 PM.
Oct 27, 2008, 10:19 PM
#37
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I can see both sides of this story as I have been on both sides.
When I first got my evo I didnt know about Buschur racing being a couple hours away from me. Well I got ebay parts and a few parts off vendors that were less expensive. My Megan manifold cracked the first time. Bought another one but ended up selling it. So for the only part that made pwer was the Megan 02 housing. At the time I got beat by a friend with less mods and a tune by the same person. These parts just werent adding up. They also had little to no warranty or customer support.
Well then I found out about Buschur racing. That is where my current build is from. Im not saying that you have to go to Buschur, but most vendors like them are close to the same idea. There is great customer service. Something wrong, they fix it. You dont get that with cheap parts usually. Also, compare Buschur/AMS "dyno testing" on here, and then look up say megan or turbo xs! Who gives ALOT more back to the community? Buschur has a new post almost every day with products and test results. Ive never seen a knock off company posting actual results on here.
Now for the person just looking to get around 400 hp and drive his car every day. Can he get cheap/ebay parts with a decent tune and enjoy the heII out of his car? Absolutely!
But when you get to my level where you are squeezing to get every last little bit of HP out of the car and are willing to upgrade parts for that extra 5hp, will cheap parts work? NO NO NO! This is when a pruven combo works the best and is rarely beaten. At this level you cant just slap parts together and expect the same result. Its not going to happen.
And as for Megan, the Megan coilovers is what I run on my car. They happen to be made by Apex'i and nearly identical to the N1V, are you going to call those cheap junk? doubt it.
When I first got my evo I didnt know about Buschur racing being a couple hours away from me. Well I got ebay parts and a few parts off vendors that were less expensive. My Megan manifold cracked the first time. Bought another one but ended up selling it. So for the only part that made pwer was the Megan 02 housing. At the time I got beat by a friend with less mods and a tune by the same person. These parts just werent adding up. They also had little to no warranty or customer support.
Well then I found out about Buschur racing. That is where my current build is from. Im not saying that you have to go to Buschur, but most vendors like them are close to the same idea. There is great customer service. Something wrong, they fix it. You dont get that with cheap parts usually. Also, compare Buschur/AMS "dyno testing" on here, and then look up say megan or turbo xs! Who gives ALOT more back to the community? Buschur has a new post almost every day with products and test results. Ive never seen a knock off company posting actual results on here.
Now for the person just looking to get around 400 hp and drive his car every day. Can he get cheap/ebay parts with a decent tune and enjoy the heII out of his car? Absolutely!
But when you get to my level where you are squeezing to get every last little bit of HP out of the car and are willing to upgrade parts for that extra 5hp, will cheap parts work? NO NO NO! This is when a pruven combo works the best and is rarely beaten. At this level you cant just slap parts together and expect the same result. Its not going to happen.
And as for Megan, the Megan coilovers is what I run on my car. They happen to be made by Apex'i and nearly identical to the N1V, are you going to call those cheap junk? doubt it.
Oct 27, 2008, 10:20 PM
#38
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It's REALLY depressing knowing that it's been so long that a tuner "generation" has passed and doesn't realize that MEGAN is a knock off company.
6-8yrs ago when i had my EG hatch, Megan was a knock off of Mugen, where they duplicated all their parts and sold them on Ebay. So many of you have blindly bought those parts that they were able to expand into different markets (Evos etc)
I believe it was the poster "Driveline Sales" that said it best...when all the companies that spend time and money developing products stop doing so, people will realize when everything is ****. Actually very depressing the more i think about it.
6-8yrs ago when i had my EG hatch, Megan was a knock off of Mugen, where they duplicated all their parts and sold them on Ebay. So many of you have blindly bought those parts that they were able to expand into different markets (Evos etc)
I believe it was the poster "Driveline Sales" that said it best...when all the companies that spend time and money developing products stop doing so, people will realize when everything is ****. Actually very depressing the more i think about it.
Oct 27, 2008, 10:32 PM
#41
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Opinions are great......it is what makes this forum what it is today..a community..where enthusiasts can exchange experiences and of ideas/thoughts about what makes their Evo's go faster perform better.....
Not every part that is reasonably priced, automatically makes it an inferior part. It all boils down to what exactly you want out of your buildup...a few additional HP for your daily driver then go the way of Ebay....if you are serious about getting every bang for your buck then Stay Away from Ebay....simple...in the long run...
The Evo is not a cheap car to buy/own, why would you if you are serious about going faster; decide to waste money on cheap parts that will eventually break down and cost more $$ in the end to replace.?...simple to me...
Not every part that is reasonably priced, automatically makes it an inferior part. It all boils down to what exactly you want out of your buildup...a few additional HP for your daily driver then go the way of Ebay....if you are serious about getting every bang for your buck then Stay Away from Ebay....simple...in the long run...
The Evo is not a cheap car to buy/own, why would you if you are serious about going faster; decide to waste money on cheap parts that will eventually break down and cost more $$ in the end to replace.?...simple to me...
Oct 28, 2008, 02:00 AM
#44
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Let me just add that when I had my RSX I swore that JDM was the way to go no matter what. Now that I have the Evo and get all of my info from this site it's opened up my eyes to all of the hard working shops that are making parts and setting up killer tunes right in our own backyard.
Oct 28, 2008, 05:34 AM
#45
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you guys have gotten so far of base, its not even funny.......whats going on was not the purpose of this thread, it was to stop the rampant FLAMATION that goes on......see my previous post on page 2