Two guys, two mods, and a tune... in the 11's
Jun 18, 2009, 09:26 AM
#316
Looking at the numbers, it looks like the 4" at 40 pounds/min is just a low enough reynolds number that it's ending up well into the translational region, which has much more of a curve to it then the fully deveolped region. I'd say the friction factor is correct.
The few number of bends on the EVO is the ONLY reason you can make 700WHP on a 3" exhaust. I don't have my references with me, so just off the top of my head, it seems like a single 3" 90 degree mandrel bend with 3" radius has about the same pressure loss as like 90 inches of pipe. A very straight exhaust on an EVO with a stockish turbo location might get the bends down to 270 degrees of total bend. That's roughly the equivlent of 270 inches of tube, which is now more signifigant then the actual length of straight tube in the system.
A 2.5" exhaust that used a larger bend radius, say 5"-7.5" centerline radius, that used the bare minimum of bends and used axial locating flanging to reduce coupler losses could probably make a lot of power. It would be even better if the actual tubing was all mandrel bent from one piece as to avoid losses from any welds.
Use some lightweight slip fit spring tensioned joints, 18 gage stainless tubing, a Burns muffler and I bet you have an exhaust under 15 pounds that can support near 500 WHP. I had something similar in mind but in 3", but honestly, thinking more about it, I could drop ~20% of the weight with just the 2.5" sizing. It would also be about 20% cheaper. I have no intention of going over 500HP anyway.
I once heard a story of how F1 exhaust parts were made. They would use a large steel ball and hammers to make the tubing ID perfectly round. You basically drop the ball in the exhaust and start hammering around the parameter to shrink the ID of the tube to the OD of the ball. I thought the guy telling me wa full of **** back then, but I now understand why and am starting to wonder where I can find a 2.402" steel ball.
The few number of bends on the EVO is the ONLY reason you can make 700WHP on a 3" exhaust. I don't have my references with me, so just off the top of my head, it seems like a single 3" 90 degree mandrel bend with 3" radius has about the same pressure loss as like 90 inches of pipe. A very straight exhaust on an EVO with a stockish turbo location might get the bends down to 270 degrees of total bend. That's roughly the equivlent of 270 inches of tube, which is now more signifigant then the actual length of straight tube in the system.
A 2.5" exhaust that used a larger bend radius, say 5"-7.5" centerline radius, that used the bare minimum of bends and used axial locating flanging to reduce coupler losses could probably make a lot of power. It would be even better if the actual tubing was all mandrel bent from one piece as to avoid losses from any welds.
Use some lightweight slip fit spring tensioned joints, 18 gage stainless tubing, a Burns muffler and I bet you have an exhaust under 15 pounds that can support near 500 WHP. I had something similar in mind but in 3", but honestly, thinking more about it, I could drop ~20% of the weight with just the 2.5" sizing. It would also be about 20% cheaper. I have no intention of going over 500HP anyway.
I once heard a story of how F1 exhaust parts were made. They would use a large steel ball and hammers to make the tubing ID perfectly round. You basically drop the ball in the exhaust and start hammering around the parameter to shrink the ID of the tube to the OD of the ball. I thought the guy telling me wa full of **** back then, but I now understand why and am starting to wonder where I can find a 2.402" steel ball.
Last edited by 03whitegsr; Jun 18, 2009 at 09:34 AM.
Jun 18, 2009, 09:36 AM
#317
Looking at the numbers, it looks like the 4" at 40 pounds/min is just a low enough reynolds number that it's ending up well into the translational region, which has much more of a curve to it then the fully deveolped region. I'd say the friction factor is correct.
The few number of bends on the EVO is the ONLY reason you can make 700WHP on a 3" exhaust. I don't have my references with me, so just off the top of my head, it seems like a single 3" 90 degree mandrel bend with 3" radius has about the same pressure loss as like 90 inches of pipe. A very straight exhaust on an EVO with a stockish turbo location might get the bends down to 270 degrees of total bend. That's roughly the equivlent of 270 inches of tube, which is now more signifigant then the actual length of straight tube in the system.
A 2.5" exhaust that used a larger bend radius, say 5"-7.5" centerline radius, that used the bare minimum of bends and used axial locating flanging to reduce coupler losses could probably make a lot of power. It would be even better if the actual tubing was all mandrel bent from one piece as to avoid losses from any welds.
Use some lightweight slip fit spring tensioned joints, 18 gage stainless tubing, a Burns muffler and I bet you have an exhaust under 15 pounds that can support near 500 WHP. I had something similar in mind but in 3", but honestly, thinking more about it, I could drop ~20% of the weight with just the 2.5" sizing. It would also be about 20% cheaper. I have no intention of going over 500HP anyway.
The few number of bends on the EVO is the ONLY reason you can make 700WHP on a 3" exhaust. I don't have my references with me, so just off the top of my head, it seems like a single 3" 90 degree mandrel bend with 3" radius has about the same pressure loss as like 90 inches of pipe. A very straight exhaust on an EVO with a stockish turbo location might get the bends down to 270 degrees of total bend. That's roughly the equivlent of 270 inches of tube, which is now more signifigant then the actual length of straight tube in the system.
A 2.5" exhaust that used a larger bend radius, say 5"-7.5" centerline radius, that used the bare minimum of bends and used axial locating flanging to reduce coupler losses could probably make a lot of power. It would be even better if the actual tubing was all mandrel bent from one piece as to avoid losses from any welds.
Use some lightweight slip fit spring tensioned joints, 18 gage stainless tubing, a Burns muffler and I bet you have an exhaust under 15 pounds that can support near 500 WHP. I had something similar in mind but in 3", but honestly, thinking more about it, I could drop ~20% of the weight with just the 2.5" sizing. It would also be about 20% cheaper. I have no intention of going over 500HP anyway.
Jun 18, 2009, 09:44 AM
#320
Haha
I have this '***** of Fury' shirt. It reads 'You have to have quick hands to beat off evil' accentuated by a portrait of Christopher Walken.
Odd thought, but it popped into my mind with that last post.
I have this '***** of Fury' shirt. It reads 'You have to have quick hands to beat off evil' accentuated by a portrait of Christopher Walken.
Odd thought, but it popped into my mind with that last post.
Last edited by 03whitegsr; Jun 18, 2009 at 09:45 AM. Reason: spelling
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Jun 18, 2009, 01:15 PM
#322
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I'd rather not say...because I just received it 
. After contacting Quarter Master directly Jeff W. personally took care of it and answered a few questions along the way. It was worth the wait, I have run these from Stock Cars to Indy Cars and they have been 100% reliable. I'm expecting the same results from this clutch although in a different application. Since this is my daily driver I will report first hand the street and strip manners of this clutch, and after a 500 mile break in period we will go back to testing 
.
Hey Fathouse guess what you are doing this weekend
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9sec9 thank you for your friendship and support, without it all of this would just be theory. I know we have opened some eyes, ruffled some feathers, and have shown what can be done with a few parts and some awesome tuning, but I can't wait till we break into the 11's, move on to Round 2, and push the basic bolt ons even further. Thanks again, Indy
. After contacting Quarter Master directly Jeff W. personally took care of it and answered a few questions along the way. It was worth the wait, I have run these from Stock Cars to Indy Cars and they have been 100% reliable. I'm expecting the same results from this clutch although in a different application. Since this is my daily driver I will report first hand the street and strip manners of this clutch, and after a 500 mile break in period we will go back to testing .Hey Fathouse guess what you are doing this weekend
. 9sec9 thank you for your friendship and support, without it all of this would just be theory. I know we have opened some eyes, ruffled some feathers, and have shown what can be done with a few parts and some awesome tuning, but I can't wait till we break into the 11's, move on to Round 2, and push the basic bolt ons even further. Thanks again, Indy
Last edited by Indy Evo; Jun 18, 2009 at 07:26 PM.
Jun 18, 2009, 05:11 PM
#326
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The quartermaster (and even PTT) parts are nice. Its one of the parts that I put on my personal street/race car that I don't have to think about anymore whereas in the past it was a constant worry. If launching doesn't suit your needs then you can adjust the clutch material and PP setup to suit your needs.
Jun 18, 2009, 06:48 PM
#327
Glad the clutch came in Indy. I still think that it's chicken feathers for you to go to a push style clutch BEFORE you've even had the thrill of having the clutch pedal go to the floor.....AND STAY THERE! I'm getting anxious to see you back at the track and having fun.
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Jun 19, 2009, 11:06 AM
#329
I've been quite impressed with the quality of the Quartermaster that I got from MAPerformance. The item that sold me on it though was rebuild costs. On a tilton or Exedy, you may as well just buy a whole new clutch. The Quartermaster is CHEAP to rebuild.
Jun 19, 2009, 07:53 PM
#330
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FYI: After measuring the clutch and flywheel for reference, I discovered the six cover bolts were actually short by roughly four threads into the flywheel insert for full engagement. I replaced them with #1305 22 NAS bolts and used the same AN washers that came with the kit. This allowed full thread engagement with the insert in the flywheel. I also used four grade 12.9 hex head cap head screws with AN washers to replace the supplied bolts for the hydraulic throw out bearing. While not a necessity, I decided to upgrade the fasteners at this time to benefit from the strength and thread engagement.
NAS bolts installed / Grade 12.9 hex head cap screw, MAP kit bolt, Quarter Master supplied clutch cover bolt, #1305 22 NAS bolt
Note: the NAS bolt has the proper grip and thread legnth.
NAS bolts installed / Grade 12.9 hex head cap screw, MAP kit bolt, Quarter Master supplied clutch cover bolt, #1305 22 NAS bolt
Note: the NAS bolt has the proper grip and thread legnth.
Last edited by Indy Evo; Jun 20, 2009 at 01:24 PM.