Evo top end?
Oct 11, 2003, 09:14 PM
#32
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And originally I was talking stock for stock.
The Evo stock is limited on the top end thanks to its fat factory fuel maps, the S4 stock has more breathing room and better gearing for top speed. Guess I could be wrong, but the Evo just doesn't feel as fast up on top.
I never enjoyed the S4 as a "fun" car to drive though because it tended to isolate you from the road and driving experience too much. This is where the Evo shines, and also why it is in my garage instead of a modded S4. It was a high-speed bullet though, thats for sure, and one of the best interiors around.
N10S
The Evo stock is limited on the top end thanks to its fat factory fuel maps, the S4 stock has more breathing room and better gearing for top speed. Guess I could be wrong, but the Evo just doesn't feel as fast up on top.
I never enjoyed the S4 as a "fun" car to drive though because it tended to isolate you from the road and driving experience too much. This is where the Evo shines, and also why it is in my garage instead of a modded S4. It was a high-speed bullet though, thats for sure, and one of the best interiors around.
N10S
Oct 12, 2003, 12:16 AM
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Ryanmcd2,
this is not to put you down or to insult you, but I think road race results really don't count. I was very fortunate in the past to own a 2001 Porsche 911 Turbo from the money I made in the rolling good tech boom times. How my portfolio got creamed during the tech bubble burst was another story altogether... But during that ownership, many cars wanted to race me. I would play with them till about 120-130 mph and I would give up. Hell even a stock evo wouldve smoked me. What I'm trying to say is that at those speeds, it becomes a race of who has bigger ***** as opposed to who has better skills or faster car. How would you know if he had his foot on the pedel 100% of the time, or that he didnt hesitate for a split second (letting his foot off the pedal) thinking that it was just a little too quick for him? The stats i got for the S351 was for the 2000 Saleen S351:
http://www.saleenunlimited.com/s351/specs.asp
this is not to put you down or to insult you, but I think road race results really don't count. I was very fortunate in the past to own a 2001 Porsche 911 Turbo from the money I made in the rolling good tech boom times. How my portfolio got creamed during the tech bubble burst was another story altogether... But during that ownership, many cars wanted to race me. I would play with them till about 120-130 mph and I would give up. Hell even a stock evo wouldve smoked me. What I'm trying to say is that at those speeds, it becomes a race of who has bigger ***** as opposed to who has better skills or faster car. How would you know if he had his foot on the pedel 100% of the time, or that he didnt hesitate for a split second (letting his foot off the pedal) thinking that it was just a little too quick for him? The stats i got for the S351 was for the 2000 Saleen S351:
http://www.saleenunlimited.com/s351/specs.asp
Originally posted by Ryanmcd2
TOP SPEED I won. the s351 will only do about 165 I think. It was a LONG *** RACE over 3 min on the interstate and I will never do it again. scary as hell.
http://www.angelfire.com/ab/pvj60/mustang.html
TOP SPEED I won. the s351 will only do about 165 I think. It was a LONG *** RACE over 3 min on the interstate and I will never do it again. scary as hell.
http://www.angelfire.com/ab/pvj60/mustang.html
Oct 12, 2003, 06:37 AM
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oh yea!! hahah i forgot about that little fact.. GEARING.
perhaps what gives the S4 its advantage over our evos is not so much the hp/torque, but rather the gearing of a 6 spd/top end power. where ours is geared more for down low.
so whats the solution increasing the top end without losing our sick down low?
hope that question makes sense lol
perhaps what gives the S4 its advantage over our evos is not so much the hp/torque, but rather the gearing of a 6 spd/top end power. where ours is geared more for down low.
so whats the solution increasing the top end without losing our sick down low?
hope that question makes sense lol
Oct 12, 2003, 08:45 AM
#38
Hey all,
HP and TQ are directly related, and at 5252 RPM they are always equal. The eqn is that
HP = TQ*RPM/5252.
So, saying HP is more "important" than TQ isn't really accurate, since when you get more of one, you get more of the other. If you can still make TQ at high rpm, you will have a lot of HP. This is beneficial since you can take advantage of gearing.
What you "feel" is TQ. A car's acceleration "pull" exactly follows the TQ curve. When you make more TQ at a given RPM, you get more HP. A car with more TQ at a given rpm will accelerate harder ceteribus paribus. For example, two cars, same weight, same gearing, same aerodynamics etc. etc., but one car has more TQ, that car will accelerate harder at that rpm.
Anyway, comparing cars is much more complicated than PEAK HP and TQ numbers of course, need to look at the HP/TQ curves. Also, there is weight, gearing, rolling resistance/drivetrain losses, aerodynamics etc.etc. Basically it's too complicated and probably need to just test it, lol.
As for top-end, I agree that the EVO could pull a little harder up top. My MBC has helped somewhat, but I'm really looking forward to my harness so I can install my SAFCII and lean out the top-end a little. Eventually an exhaust will further help.
Here I mean the acceleration or pull in the higher rpm ranges. Sometimes people say top-end and mean top speed. The top speed will be gear limited, electronically limited, or drag limited. If the ECU cuts power at a certain point, you can't go faster than that speed without removing the limiter. If you can't make enough power to overcome drag and resistance, that will dictate the drag limited top speed. If you can spin your biggest gear to redline or fuel cut, the car will be gear limited.
The EVO is probably drag limited to ~150 or so right? 5th gear could probably spin to 160+ if you make enough power. I think it should be roughly proportional, for example if we can go 80 mph at 3500 rpm in 5th gear, 7000 rpm in 5th would be roughly 160. The tach and esp speedo aren't perfectly accurate, esp on the high range. Also the tires deform at speed and whatnot. I've seen an indicated 140+ in my EVO with a passenger on a slight uphill. On a side note, a downhill grade can allow you to hit a higher top-speed (duh). In my 89 Ford Probe GT (2.2 liter turbo) I hit ~145+ down a large hill (the end of rt 2 east in MA).
FB
HP and TQ are directly related, and at 5252 RPM they are always equal. The eqn is that
HP = TQ*RPM/5252.
So, saying HP is more "important" than TQ isn't really accurate, since when you get more of one, you get more of the other. If you can still make TQ at high rpm, you will have a lot of HP. This is beneficial since you can take advantage of gearing.
What you "feel" is TQ. A car's acceleration "pull" exactly follows the TQ curve. When you make more TQ at a given RPM, you get more HP. A car with more TQ at a given rpm will accelerate harder ceteribus paribus. For example, two cars, same weight, same gearing, same aerodynamics etc. etc., but one car has more TQ, that car will accelerate harder at that rpm.
Anyway, comparing cars is much more complicated than PEAK HP and TQ numbers of course, need to look at the HP/TQ curves. Also, there is weight, gearing, rolling resistance/drivetrain losses, aerodynamics etc.etc. Basically it's too complicated and probably need to just test it, lol.
As for top-end, I agree that the EVO could pull a little harder up top. My MBC has helped somewhat, but I'm really looking forward to my harness so I can install my SAFCII and lean out the top-end a little. Eventually an exhaust will further help.
Here I mean the acceleration or pull in the higher rpm ranges. Sometimes people say top-end and mean top speed. The top speed will be gear limited, electronically limited, or drag limited. If the ECU cuts power at a certain point, you can't go faster than that speed without removing the limiter. If you can't make enough power to overcome drag and resistance, that will dictate the drag limited top speed. If you can spin your biggest gear to redline or fuel cut, the car will be gear limited.
The EVO is probably drag limited to ~150 or so right? 5th gear could probably spin to 160+ if you make enough power. I think it should be roughly proportional, for example if we can go 80 mph at 3500 rpm in 5th gear, 7000 rpm in 5th would be roughly 160. The tach and esp speedo aren't perfectly accurate, esp on the high range. Also the tires deform at speed and whatnot. I've seen an indicated 140+ in my EVO with a passenger on a slight uphill. On a side note, a downhill grade can allow you to hit a higher top-speed (duh). In my 89 Ford Probe GT (2.2 liter turbo) I hit ~145+ down a large hill (the end of rt 2 east in MA).
FB
Oct 12, 2003, 08:54 AM
#39
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That is true, bigger *****, or a bigger retard. I will not EVER go that fast again because you can die pretty fast doing it. I was 22 when I did that and it was 1 day before my birthday and I was thinking of ending up dead the day before my birthday and it scared me pretty bad. I take it to the track now. Also it sucks that you lost in the tech boom, I daytrade futures the ES and have been doing it for a while now, I also have a friend who lost over 8 mill, he though he was the king bought a Panos race car and everything. Did not know how to short and did not know TA and got slammed.
Originally posted by 909
Ryanmcd2,
this is not to put you down or to insult you, but I think road race results really don't count. I was very fortunate in the past to own a 2001 Porsche 911 Turbo from the money I made in the rolling good tech boom times. How my portfolio got creamed during the tech bubble burst was another story altogether... But during that ownership, many cars wanted to race me. I would play with them till about 120-130 mph and I would give up. Hell even a stock evo wouldve smoked me. What I'm trying to say is that at those speeds, it becomes a race of who has bigger ***** as opposed to who has better skills or faster car. How would you know if he had his foot on the pedel 100% of the time, or that he didnt hesitate for a split second (letting his foot off the pedal) thinking that it was just a little too quick for him? The stats i got for the S351 was for the 2000 Saleen S351:
http://www.saleenunlimited.com/s351/specs.asp
Ryanmcd2,
this is not to put you down or to insult you, but I think road race results really don't count. I was very fortunate in the past to own a 2001 Porsche 911 Turbo from the money I made in the rolling good tech boom times. How my portfolio got creamed during the tech bubble burst was another story altogether... But during that ownership, many cars wanted to race me. I would play with them till about 120-130 mph and I would give up. Hell even a stock evo wouldve smoked me. What I'm trying to say is that at those speeds, it becomes a race of who has bigger ***** as opposed to who has better skills or faster car. How would you know if he had his foot on the pedel 100% of the time, or that he didnt hesitate for a split second (letting his foot off the pedal) thinking that it was just a little too quick for him? The stats i got for the S351 was for the 2000 Saleen S351:
http://www.saleenunlimited.com/s351/specs.asp
Oct 12, 2003, 08:54 AM
#40
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I think down the road someone will make a different gear ratio for out cars.
Originally posted by JaReDbOy
oh yea!! hahah i forgot about that little fact.. GEARING.
perhaps what gives the S4 its advantage over our evos is not so much the hp/torque, but rather the gearing of a 6 spd/top end power. where ours is geared more for down low.
so whats the solution increasing the top end without losing our sick down low?
hope that question makes sense lol
oh yea!! hahah i forgot about that little fact.. GEARING.
perhaps what gives the S4 its advantage over our evos is not so much the hp/torque, but rather the gearing of a 6 spd/top end power. where ours is geared more for down low.
so whats the solution increasing the top end without losing our sick down low?
hope that question makes sense lol
Oct 12, 2003, 09:11 AM
#41
I'm glad someone else put into words (a little better than I could) what I was saying before.. We actually have the perfect gearing for what the car is intended to do.. You can get better top end using a variety of methods.. all have some sacrifice.. IE, Removing the eletronic limiters, and increasing engine RPM, the downside is critical engine failure.. Changing gearing, the downside is the car will feel lazier off the line, and sacrifice its low speed performance.. By far the best option is to eliminate as much drag as possible, however aftermarket body kits aren't generally designed to reduce drag, but to look pretty, or get more air through the intercooler.. Our cars are designed to increase downforce at the speeds that its designed to run in rallies.. Increased downforce also increases drag and rolling resistance in an attempt to improve the "Friction" of the tires contact on the road.
We also forget about our brakes and tires.. As you increase your top speed, you have to put more attention on things that could fail because a failure at a much higher speed is that much more dangerous..
In most forms of racing, most cars will never see speeds higher than 130 or so.. Most race tracks don't have a long enough straightaway to go much higher than 150 or so even with the quickest street cars.. What I mean is if a car is geared to make top-end speed, it sacrifices a little in acceleration, so you'd probably not get the acceleration needed to go much faster (unless its an insane amount of horsepower or torque).. These tracks are designed that way intentionally, because it evens things out a little..
in an answer to the person who asked what the best way to increase top end without losing the performance down low.. Choosing wheels which have less unsprung weight, picking tires designed for high speed driving, and are less prone to deforming or failing at high speeds, reducing drag in as many places as possible, increasing horsepower a little, and increasing the engines max RPM.. This needs to be done as a complete excercise because doing only one thing will ultimately lead to a sacrifice somewhere else.
We also forget about our brakes and tires.. As you increase your top speed, you have to put more attention on things that could fail because a failure at a much higher speed is that much more dangerous..
In most forms of racing, most cars will never see speeds higher than 130 or so.. Most race tracks don't have a long enough straightaway to go much higher than 150 or so even with the quickest street cars.. What I mean is if a car is geared to make top-end speed, it sacrifices a little in acceleration, so you'd probably not get the acceleration needed to go much faster (unless its an insane amount of horsepower or torque).. These tracks are designed that way intentionally, because it evens things out a little..
in an answer to the person who asked what the best way to increase top end without losing the performance down low.. Choosing wheels which have less unsprung weight, picking tires designed for high speed driving, and are less prone to deforming or failing at high speeds, reducing drag in as many places as possible, increasing horsepower a little, and increasing the engines max RPM.. This needs to be done as a complete excercise because doing only one thing will ultimately lead to a sacrifice somewhere else.
Oct 12, 2003, 10:30 AM
#43
I'm definitely interested in trying out the dynoflash, but I'm going to do it after all my mods are done.. Someone with a similar setup to what I'm working on made 330 to the wheels.. Outrageous.. I'm putting it off until after my warranty is up.. who knows what else will come out in the next 6 months either..
Oct 12, 2003, 07:48 PM
#44
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hey all!
i just came back from my friends house where we installed my HKS SS BOV and HKS cold air intake.
i was just in my evo for about 3 hours on the highway. either the mods really helped alot, or i was just being too hard on it b4 by saying it didnt have ballz,-- cuz my car felt pretty good.
or maybe its cuz i didnt race an s4 lol-- i gotta get together with my friend again and see how i do.
the BOV is amazing.. it just sounds sooo sick.
how much hp increase do you think im seeing from the cold air intake?
i just came back from my friends house where we installed my HKS SS BOV and HKS cold air intake.
i was just in my evo for about 3 hours on the highway. either the mods really helped alot, or i was just being too hard on it b4 by saying it didnt have ballz,-- cuz my car felt pretty good.
or maybe its cuz i didnt race an s4 lol-- i gotta get together with my friend again and see how i do.
the BOV is amazing.. it just sounds sooo sick.
how much hp increase do you think im seeing from the cold air intake?
