JaReDbOy

iTrader: (4)

thanks! i ended up ordering boost, airfuel, and the egt gauges. they sell package deals at www.lancershop.com i only found this out cuz i called and ordered. was like 320 all together with gauge pod and blue bulb covers - to go with my BBY evo

thats a pretty decent deal - as far as i can tell.

90GSX-03EVO

iTrader: (27)

What company?

Autometer should be about:

$50 for boost

$100 for EGT

$150 for EGT probe

$40 for air fuel

$40 for pod

So even with them being Autometer (cheap but good quality) you would be getting a good deal. I would change out the A/F ratio gauge to something more functional, though. I don't know anyone who can use a A/F gauge like that for anything like tuning/monitoring.

At least you will get a blinking light show when not at WOT. Hehe.

QuantumEVO

iTrader: (12)

The regular boost gauge that autometer sells in different color schemes is NOT good quality. They vary greatly from one unit to the next and also towards the end of their range.

Mark
www.Quantum-Racing.com

MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

if you want a A/F Gauge that itsn't totally useless, you want to get one thats calibrated for WOT voltages.. Honestly, I'd be hard pressed to say my gauge is useful but It has accurately reflected whether i was rich, right on, and lean when I tried different tuning.. Definitely the EGT gauge is more useful.. However, back to my point, www.dawesdevices.com his gauge is basically 4 LED's.. Its calibrated only for WOT voltages (narrowband O2) and does reflect a general state of tune pretty well.. But since a full gauge is useless, at least its a bright colored light to see if something is going horribly right, or wrong... The device is very small, I have mine mounted INSIDE my steering column with the LED's poking through, the LED's light reflects off the instrument panel and is easy to see at a glance, but not distracting.

And this thread REALLY has gone offtopic..

JaReDbOy

iTrader: (4)

i got mine from www.lancershop.com - i had called to ask a question- otherwise i wouldnt have known about the deal.

the autometer gauges look pretty good i think- i just hope they accruately read the levels.

LOL you are so right malibujack, this has gone waaaay offtopic. so in the interest of keeping it off topic, im a bit.. shall we say - overwhelmed- or confused- take your pick- about what i should regarding the electronics.

im sure there are a million posts about this- but looking at my current setup- as im not going to go crazy with the mods, probably an exhaust is next, what should i go for as far as electonics/ecu flashes.. the works flash seems like a good choice since its not too expensive.. but would i need the s-afc or s-afr in addition to this? or does that ECU flash take care of everything?

QuantumEVO

iTrader: (12)

If anyone would like to actually speak with a tuner about what they are looking for or has any questions, please give me a call.
Regarding blinky lights from O2 sensors; the sensor itself is useless and therefore the gauges are as well. The O2 sensor can vary by 1~2 A/F points within 10 seconds at WOT. Do not trust it whatsoever. The Autometer A/F gauge is good for standalone guys to make sure their closed loop algorithms are working properly.
The Autometer boost gauge is off by up to 1.5 psi near 0 psig and off by more than that in some cases up and beyond 20 psi.
If you want top end high rpm power you need a bigger turbo and headwork.

Mark
www.Quantum-Racing.com

Noize

iTrader: (24)

Good grief! Where to start with this?

Berkel and Shape GSX are the two posters in this thread that make the most sense.

There is a lot of misinformation in this thread, but there's some good stuff too.

First, I want to talk about two flawed ideas here that are NOT responsible for the weaker top end pull:

(1) AWD. This has been debated ad nauseum. Of course an AWD car has more DT losses than an RWD car, which in turn has more drivetrain loss than an MR car or a FWD car. But that isn't what makes the stock Evo a little bit tepid up top. DT loss is DT loss. Its percentage certainly doesn't increase as power goes up, it is unilateral in that regard. Want to take the BS out of the equation? Look at WHP for truth there. Problem solved.

(2) Aerodynamics. Please, people. That is not the problem here. The cD is not very high on this car. While its no Honda Insight for cD, it isn't bad, either.

Here's the real issues with the top end:

(1) Gearing. This car's gearing is awesome, but if you're a major highway street racer, know that 4th gear sees redline at 113mph, and unless you rev it deeper, you're going to have to upshift to fifth there. Fifth falls into a crater, and its a long climb out. While the 3-4 upshift is a 30mph drop, the 4-5 upshift is a 50mph drop!!! Understand that a car that is still holding fourth there (read: most all in this power range) is going to have a lot shorter 115-130mph pull than our basically overdrive fifth which is 162mph capable at 7000 redline (although if you have the power to overcome the drag, you could rev deeper and go faster of course.. But its sure not smart to take any gear fuel to fuel cut- most of all fifth!). That is a huge factor in why the Evo falls off a bit above that speed.

(2) Weight. This car is pretty heavy. While there are a lot of heavier cars out there, power to weight is always a factor, and cannot be ignored. This is more simple to calculate and understand than the gearing, becasue its obvious.

(3) Air:Fuel. This is the biggest offennder. A stock Evo makes beautiful 350Z slaying torque in the 3000-4500rpm range, but then suffers from the old puke-n-die, especially after 5500rpm where its tuned ridiculously rich. There are several modified 16G Evos with tuning and breathing mods that hold great torque to near redline.


Back to other ramblings in this thread, I think the Evo on the stock turbo has more potential than the S4 on its stock turbos. The tiny K03 turbos spool really quick, but lack the top end torque and power potential of the 16G. Factor in that the Audi is heavier and there are a lot more low 12 second and high 11 second Evos than S4s, even though the S4 has been out much longer (and has since abandoned its FI powerplant). Of course displacement always matters, but in the case where the bigger motor is attached to lesser turbochargers, its going to take more work (turbo swap) to make the S4 really fast.

As said before, horsepower is a function of torque, so the more torque you can make- ESPECIALLY in the higher rev ranges- you'll make exponentially more power because of the aforementioned equation: HP= (Tq*rpm)/5250.

My VF30 WRX annhiliated stock S4s and convincingly pulled E46 M3s on the top end, and my lightly modded Evo will to to a degree, until I upshift to fifth.

Even stock, my Evo pulled my friend's plenum + some exhaust 350Z Track until we shut down near the top of third. Now, it'd be no contest with me having management and a little exhaust work of my own.



To the DSM guy in this thread that started out calling people idiots then later mellowed out, I want to say I appreciate that. But I don't agree with you on a lot of points, most of all tuning air:fuel with an EGT gauge or even a sweep gauge like a cyberdyne. What do you do, lean out until the EGTs get borderline and put a tad of fuel back to settle them? I hope not! The only real way to tune is with a wideband O2. Its even better if you can use one while on a dyno so you can see exactly what is going on and datalog all the info while you can see the WHP/WTq you are producing.

Sorry for the novel. Rants off.

evo8power

iTrader: (1)

do the xedy from vishnu, youll be all set ...trust me...:-)

QuantumEVO

iTrader: (12)

Your points are well said and some the same as what I have commented but I would like to add that point #3 is not the only reason for the taper just above 5krpm. I am already assuming the EVO owner in question has the basic management, exhaust, intake, FMIC, etc and wants better top end pull. Otherwise, the next couple steps are already layed out for them.

Mark
www.Quantum-Racing.com

909

Noize,

how do you know that drivetrain losses are a constant? that at higher gearbox speeds, the drivetrain loss is the same as lower drivetrain speeds? Conventional knowledge only agrees that frictional forces increase as we move into higher gearbox speeds. WHP tells you nothing.... how would you know if you have lost more power up top if you don't have a rwd 4g63 car to compare with? You arguement is only made of statements, let's see some facts to back up what you say.

90GSX-03EVO

iTrader: (27)

I've always used the plain jane Autometer that measures from around 30 in/hg to 30 psi. They seem to work great. I have had 3 of these personally (3 different cars) and I have installed about 10 more on other people's cars. The Phantom boost gauge seems to be about the same from my personal experience. I can not talk of the rest of their styles (Lunar, Cobalt, that carbon fiber stybe, etc.) because I have never had the need or urge to use them.

The prices I listed earlier were rough guestimates for the basic line of Autometer gauges (black face, white print...except on the boost gauge, where the vacuum side is yellow print).

Sorry to cause confusion.

Noize

iTrader: (24)

I think you misread my intent, bro. When I look at what at what I wrote, it is because I mistyped it! Sorry about that. It should say:

"The maximum value of its percentage (losses) certainly doesn't increase as power (meaning adding modifications) goes up, it is unilateral in that regard."

My words didn't match up with my intention. Of course mechanical losses increase at rpm and speed in ALL drivetrain forms as you must exert more force to spin them faster. That's simple physics and I understand that. These losses are a part of what any car will always see, and that real WHP and WTq and the area under the curve is what we need to be concerned with.

The reason I wrote that is because I believe a lot of people like to believe the exaggerations that these AWD cars lose like 35% to the drivetrain, and that's simply not true. You want to see some facts for comparison of an identical motor on the different drivetrains? Look at the torque curves on identically boosted GS-Ts and GSXes that are otherwise completely stock. The FWD car obviously has less mechanical losses, but the Tq curves are identical, just that the GS-T is shifted up the X-Axis.

While I agree that WHP **peak** doesn't mean much, area under the curve means everything. Whenever you're looking at power:weight, look at the torque curve, because it is what is actually accelerating the car. HP is very important, and wins races in the long run, but as we all know, its a simple mathematic derivative of torque.

Am I making more sense?

909

hehe yeah you do. With regards to this whole thread, I think all the factors you mentioned, as well as others come into play.. I've had some nasty disappointments. One of the cases is with a friend's Ford Focus SVT with custom turbo. He pulled a 280hp on the dyno and I pulled a 292 on the same dyno. His best 1/4 mile was 13.6 while mine was 12.9. But on the highway, rolling start and WOT, he creeps away from me at the end of 3rd gear and the pace he gains over me increases as I enter into 4th gear... Needless to say, I was really disappointed. I was thinking, how can my car with 292whp lose to his car with only 280whp??? His gearing are somewhat on the low side, because it was the stock SVT focus tranny meant for a less powerful car. It's all very baffling. Could this also mean that dyno whp doesnt take weight as a factor?

Noize

iTrader: (24)

Weight is not a factor at all for determining WHP. I met a guy whose B16A in his 2000 Civic Si is BUILT. It has a Greddy kit and has ~284whp, but only 218wtq. We raced on the highway and it wasn't pretty for me to say the least. Since that car weighs about 600 lbs less than mine, I figure I'll need AT LEAST 320whp to bring some thunder on him at speed. I have more area under the curve, he just has A LOT less mass to push. I'm not afraid of him on a dragstrip, but I'm running and hiding in the bushes if he wants to race on the highway until I get more mods! If your Focus friend and my Civic Si pal got slicks, we'd be in a heap of hurt.

mikec

iTrader: (3)

Isn't the stock "cold air" intake on the Evo more like a "ram air" intake? I would have to think that this would benefit any car, even one with a turbo.