Dynoflash vs any other ecu tuner. Why even bother??
Jan 7, 2004, 09:12 AM
#32
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Originally posted by MalibuJack
I'm sure this was answered already however....
Most US Domestic market cars after 1995 have some form of OBD compliant diagnostic port.. All computer controlled cars (for US market) after 97 were required to be OBD-II complaint.. So the answer to the evo is yes.. its OBD-II.
Tuning the ECM (Mitsu calls it a PCM, Powertrain Control Module) is a little more complex.. For one reason or another, things like the Power Programmer (That are available to allow the end-user to flash their own ecu) don't seem to be available, or nobody has made one that will work. It seems the tuner market prefers to use Piggybacks (though some of the hypertech products are indeed piggyback products) entire replacement ECU's, or Tuner Flashes (not end-user applied)
I do know that the inline code in the Evo is fairly complex, and rewritten as part of the flashing process and therefore if you foul up flashing the computer, it renders the entire computer basically useless, where the Chevy's tuning parameters are stored seperately from the ECU's Firmware (both are flashable however)
In addition, the data is typically encrypted and not easily extracted (downloaded off) from the ECU as it can be from many american cars (So you can revert back to its previous settings)
Therefore most flashes need to be done by a professional with the right tools, and parameter changes are a little more complex than adjusting shift points, converter lockup, speedo correction, etc.. that you can find and adjust on a GM car.
Ultimately the answer is nobody has developed hardware intended for the end-user to do what a power programmer can do.. the closest thing we have to some of the hypertech products (or jet-chip products) that plug Inline to the ECU, are the piggyback tunable fuel computers.
I would love nothing more than to have the hardware to tune my own ECM.. But after researching the expense, its just not cost effective to do it as an individual (Lets just say the software alone can cost as much as $3000, and the hardware ranges in the $2000 range) Plus you can REALLY foul up your car with this stuff if you aren't really familiar with engines, and tuning (more specifically how tuning is done on these kinds of cars)
I'm sure this was answered already however....
Most US Domestic market cars after 1995 have some form of OBD compliant diagnostic port.. All computer controlled cars (for US market) after 97 were required to be OBD-II complaint.. So the answer to the evo is yes.. its OBD-II.
Tuning the ECM (Mitsu calls it a PCM, Powertrain Control Module) is a little more complex.. For one reason or another, things like the Power Programmer (That are available to allow the end-user to flash their own ecu) don't seem to be available, or nobody has made one that will work. It seems the tuner market prefers to use Piggybacks (though some of the hypertech products are indeed piggyback products) entire replacement ECU's, or Tuner Flashes (not end-user applied)
I do know that the inline code in the Evo is fairly complex, and rewritten as part of the flashing process and therefore if you foul up flashing the computer, it renders the entire computer basically useless, where the Chevy's tuning parameters are stored seperately from the ECU's Firmware (both are flashable however)
In addition, the data is typically encrypted and not easily extracted (downloaded off) from the ECU as it can be from many american cars (So you can revert back to its previous settings)
Therefore most flashes need to be done by a professional with the right tools, and parameter changes are a little more complex than adjusting shift points, converter lockup, speedo correction, etc.. that you can find and adjust on a GM car.
Ultimately the answer is nobody has developed hardware intended for the end-user to do what a power programmer can do.. the closest thing we have to some of the hypertech products (or jet-chip products) that plug Inline to the ECU, are the piggyback tunable fuel computers.
I would love nothing more than to have the hardware to tune my own ECM.. But after researching the expense, its just not cost effective to do it as an individual (Lets just say the software alone can cost as much as $3000, and the hardware ranges in the $2000 range) Plus you can REALLY foul up your car with this stuff if you aren't really familiar with engines, and tuning (more specifically how tuning is done on these kinds of cars)
Actually, it's the complexity of tuning the a/f ratio, and spark/fuel map, (and anything else) which interests me. I think with some practice, I could gain a few horses, and maybe even slightly better MPG by programming myself rather than having the Pcm reflashed by someone else. I would be in it more for the fun of it though.
It sounds like it is really worth the money to have a professional do a reflash for you though.
Pcm tuning is a great way to pickup more hp, torque, and better driveability, especially after mods. You Evo guys are pretty lucky to have serious businesses, like Works, and Flash, out there who provide this service.
Last edited by christoscamaro; Jan 7, 2004 at 09:17 AM.
Jan 7, 2004, 10:00 AM
#33
Originally posted by mikesevo8
Agreed. Al, please don't let the members of your "fan club" irk you into a response.
It's abundantly clear they have found your buttons and they love to push them. Actually they love to stomp on them.
Silver - as to your other post about what goes into reflashing, I also agree.
Everyone offering a reflash, regardless of their specific methods, are playing in the same ballpark, and have to
do similar things to achieve similar results.
There is no "magic" involved.
I believe this is what aggravates most Dynoflash detractors.
Several venders offered a service for what seemed like a reasonable price.
In walked a guy who offered a similar service for less.
"He's a hack" they cry. "He's not a real tuner" they wail.
But at the end of the day, as the old saying goes, you turn them over and they all look the same...
Gee Al, maybe you should have been charging a grand for your service.
Maybe you would have gotten more respect as a real tuner...
Mike's dad
Agreed. Al, please don't let the members of your "fan club" irk you into a response.
It's abundantly clear they have found your buttons and they love to push them. Actually they love to stomp on them.
Silver - as to your other post about what goes into reflashing, I also agree.
Everyone offering a reflash, regardless of their specific methods, are playing in the same ballpark, and have to
do similar things to achieve similar results.
There is no "magic" involved.
I believe this is what aggravates most Dynoflash detractors.
Several venders offered a service for what seemed like a reasonable price.
In walked a guy who offered a similar service for less.
"He's a hack" they cry. "He's not a real tuner" they wail.
But at the end of the day, as the old saying goes, you turn them over and they all look the same...
Gee Al, maybe you should have been charging a grand for your service.
Maybe you would have gotten more respect as a real tuner...
Mike's dad
Look forward to seeing you at a track event in the spring !
Jan 7, 2004, 04:17 PM
#34
Actually, There is no reason why an enduser Cannot do it.. It just happens to be that a flash isn't currently one of those things you can adjust as an individual. Flashes are by far the best option for getting the most out of aftermarket parts (Short of a standalone replacement ECU). Your options if you plan on making changes would be the Standalone (Steep learning curve), or piggyback products like the XEDE, or TurboXS UTEC which can control timing, boost control, and Fuel mixture (all within limits, but its amazingly effective), then you have the Piggyback fuel computers such as the APEXI S-AFC or HKS SAFR(?) products which control only fuel mixture. Each has its advantages and disadvantages which would be too numerous to discuss in this thread. The only disadvantage of a flash is that you would need to have it reflashed after any major modifications to the car's configuration. Otherwise, a individually tuned Flash is your best option.
There is the hybrid approach where you can do a flash to get in the zone you want (for whatever modifications you have at the time of the flash) and then make fuel adjustments later with a piggyback to get you the A/F you want with the changes you've made.
Ultimately, as an enduser, tuning needs to be done with the correct tools, being able to see accurate air/fuel mixture readings, knock detection, and monitoring the car's obd-II data are the things you would need to look at. IF you choose to tune yourself, the factory O2 sensor is not adequate to safely use for tuning, you will need an aftermarket wideband O2 sensor and display.
We now return to the flash thread...
There is the hybrid approach where you can do a flash to get in the zone you want (for whatever modifications you have at the time of the flash) and then make fuel adjustments later with a piggyback to get you the A/F you want with the changes you've made.
Ultimately, as an enduser, tuning needs to be done with the correct tools, being able to see accurate air/fuel mixture readings, knock detection, and monitoring the car's obd-II data are the things you would need to look at. IF you choose to tune yourself, the factory O2 sensor is not adequate to safely use for tuning, you will need an aftermarket wideband O2 sensor and display.
We now return to the flash thread...
Originally posted by christoscamaro
Wow, that answered my question 100%. thanks for taking the time to write that all up!
Actually, it's the complexity of tuning the a/f ratio, and spark/fuel map, (and anything else) which interests me. I think with some practice, I could gain a few horses, and maybe even slightly better MPG by programming myself rather than having the Pcm reflashed by someone else. I would be in it more for the fun of it though.
It sounds like it is really worth the money to have a professional do a reflash for you though.
Pcm tuning is a great way to pickup more hp, torque, and better driveability, especially after mods. You Evo guys are pretty lucky to have serious businesses, like Works, and Flash, out there who provide this service.
Wow, that answered my question 100%. thanks for taking the time to write that all up!
Actually, it's the complexity of tuning the a/f ratio, and spark/fuel map, (and anything else) which interests me. I think with some practice, I could gain a few horses, and maybe even slightly better MPG by programming myself rather than having the Pcm reflashed by someone else. I would be in it more for the fun of it though.
It sounds like it is really worth the money to have a professional do a reflash for you though.
Pcm tuning is a great way to pickup more hp, torque, and better driveability, especially after mods. You Evo guys are pretty lucky to have serious businesses, like Works, and Flash, out there who provide this service.
