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Dyno tune vs Email order

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Old Jun 22, 2012, 06:55 AM
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Funny this popped up, I just had a rant on our Facebook page yesterday about e-tunes.

I'm lucky enough to not have a lot of cars come in that were tuned remotely. I do get them that were tuned elsewhere and can find something wrong with most of those. There are a few, very few, tuners out there that do a really-really good job.

Personally, I don't think it's possible on a really big build, to make a car run correctly by tuning it via e-mail. I need to be in the car, hear it, feel it and have all the feedback of driving it to get it to an acceptable level. There are just some things you are not going to get spot on sitting at a laptop and looking at logs, end of story.

Yesterday my rant stemmed from a customer who came here with a BR "engine problem". Ends up the problem was a fuel problem, as odd as that was. While it was here I wanted to get it on the dyno and offered to do it for free. He's spent a lot of money, came a considerable way for us to listen to the engine and had an e-tune. The particular tuner who tuned the car has tuned his fair share of cars via the internet. Has a good reputation and we are in good standings with each other.

However, this car would barely idle. 2 liter, our cams, ported head, 1200cc injectors, double pumper etc., etc. When you turned the A/C on, it quite instantly, impossible to drive the car with the A/C on at all. Long term fuel trims were +12%. High octane fuel map and low were set the same. High octane timing map had LESS timing in it up top than the Low octane fuel map. Knock tables were dumbed down a bit, which added to the risk of the poorly done fuel and ignition tables. I can go on more but the fact is, good reputation, guy is making money tuning cars on the internet and this map was very-very SUB PAR.

The car had been here before and even on a more basic build had idle issues, I loaned the owner an IAC and told him to swap it out later. The one I gave him for some reason didn't work. I believe this particular car still has an IAC problem as the idle was very-very tough to get right, doing it via e-mail, I'd say it would be impossible. This particular tuner also had the idle tables nearly stock and what I'd say as set up incorrectly. The power through the VD was 600+ on this build. I ran the car with the e-tuned map first, with the OWNER IN THE CAR SO HE COULD SEE I WASN'T PULLING ANY TRICKS and it made about 450 whp with the power falling off after 6500 rpm.

When I was done, the car idled MOST of the time, fuel/timing tables were set up correctly, A/C could be run, fuel trims were spot on, the car made power all the way to 8,000 rpm and was 498'ish and we were simply out of injector, car was on E85.

In defense of e-tunes. I have never done them, I refuse because I think it's a **** poor way to tune car. However, when Al was working with us we sold a lot of flashes for our Stage 1, 2, 3 and 4 kits. Now these kits were done on our dyno or other dyno with those exact combination of parts and they were very close. A Stage 1-4 car is fairly mild and being as all the parts were the same for all the cars those tunes worked well. A mild car like that can be tuned via e-mail I would say.

Also, the comment about tuning a car in a few pulls, that can be done for sure, especially on a Staged upgrade car when base maps have been established already, any tuner that can't pull that off should quit.

I watched one of the most respected tuners I know of Cal Hartline, tune some Buicks here last week. All big builds, big power cars and the ones that didn't have problems were done in just a handful of pulls.

I have had cars I've done in 3-4 pulls in the past. I get out, tell the customer if he wants to feel like he is getting more for his money I can sit in the car and make more pulls but the tune is done and they can get on the road to go home if they like. hahaha They have all laughed and thanked me for not wasting their time.
Old Jun 22, 2012, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Anarchy99
When you name a tuner that can hear detonation, feel engine vibration, smell an exhaust leak, hear a wastegate not opening, smell a burning oil leak, see a leaking front case, smell coolant, hear a whistling boost leak, see a coolant overflow spilling over, can react when the FPR line pops off the intake manifold, and can abort a pull in an emergency through the internet or email, let me know...
bingo
Old Jun 22, 2012, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by badev0
Agreed. Can't believe people are still using copper plugs
Believe what you want, I've tried them all over the years multiple times, and I have felt/exp absolutely no difference in any aspect of driving using the irridium counterparts.
Old Jun 22, 2012, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by CBRD
get rid of those plugs-

throw in some BPR7EIX or BPR8EIX gapped to .20 and you will be fine-

trust me-

cb
I'm gonna do this today and a boost leak this weekend

Thanks
Old Jun 22, 2012, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by David Buschur
Funny this popped up, I just had a rant on our Facebook page yesterday about e-tunes.

I'm lucky enough to not have a lot of cars come in that were tuned remotely. I do get them that were tuned elsewhere and can find something wrong with most of those. There are a few, very few, tuners out there that do a really-really good job.

Personally, I don't think it's possible on a really big build, to make a car run correctly by tuning it via e-mail. I need to be in the car, hear it, feel it and have all the feedback of driving it to get it to an acceptable level. There are just some things you are not going to get spot on sitting at a laptop and looking at logs, end of story.

Yesterday my rant stemmed from a customer who came here with a BR "engine problem". Ends up the problem was a fuel problem, as odd as that was. While it was here I wanted to get it on the dyno and offered to do it for free. He's spent a lot of money, came a considerable way for us to listen to the engine and had an e-tune. The particular tuner who tuned the car has tuned his fair share of cars via the internet. Has a good reputation and we are in good standings with each other.

However, this car would barely idle. 2 liter, our cams, ported head, 1200cc injectors, double pumper etc., etc. When you turned the A/C on, it quite instantly, impossible to drive the car with the A/C on at all. Long term fuel trims were +12%. High octane fuel map and low were set the same. High octane timing map had LESS timing in it up top than the Low octane fuel map. Knock tables were dumbed down a bit, which added to the risk of the poorly done fuel and ignition tables. I can go on more but the fact is, good reputation, guy is making money tuning cars on the internet and this map was very-very SUB PAR.

The car had been here before and even on a more basic build had idle issues, I loaned the owner an IAC and told him to swap it out later. The one I gave him for some reason didn't work. I believe this particular car still has an IAC problem as the idle was very-very tough to get right, doing it via e-mail, I'd say it would be impossible. This particular tuner also had the idle tables nearly stock and what I'd say as set up incorrectly. The power through the VD was 600+ on this build. I ran the car with the e-tuned map first, with the OWNER IN THE CAR SO HE COULD SEE I WASN'T PULLING ANY TRICKS and it made about 450 whp with the power falling off after 6500 rpm.

When I was done, the car idled MOST of the time, fuel/timing tables were set up correctly, A/C could be run, fuel trims were spot on, the car made power all the way to 8,000 rpm and was 498'ish and we were simply out of injector, car was on E85.

In defense of e-tunes. I have never done them, I refuse because I think it's a **** poor way to tune car. However, when Al was working with us we sold a lot of flashes for our Stage 1, 2, 3 and 4 kits. Now these kits were done on our dyno or other dyno with those exact combination of parts and they were very close. A Stage 1-4 car is fairly mild and being as all the parts were the same for all the cars those tunes worked well. A mild car like that can be tuned via e-mail I would say.

Also, the comment about tuning a car in a few pulls, that can be done for sure, especially on a Staged upgrade car when base maps have been established already, any tuner that can't pull that off should quit.

I watched one of the most respected tuners I know of Cal Hartline, tune some Buicks here last week. All big builds, big power cars and the ones that didn't have problems were done in just a handful of pulls.

I have had cars I've done in 3-4 pulls in the past. I get out, tell the customer if he wants to feel like he is getting more for his money I can sit in the car and make more pulls but the tune is done and they can get on the road to go home if they like. hahaha They have all laughed and thanked me for not wasting their time.

Thanks for the Story. Great feedback thread
Old Jun 22, 2012, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by gsrboi80
Believe what you want, I've tried them all over the years multiple times, and I have felt/exp absolutely no difference in any aspect of driving using the irridium counterparts.
I use to be of the same thought as you, I use to actually tell people they were fools to buy an Iridium plug. I was wrong. Copper is a great cheap plug but they don't last nearly as long nor will they fire in as extreme conditions as an Iridium. I ONLY use/install Iridiums now unless the cost is just not able to be paid by the customer.

Also, as another note. I have a car here today, mix match of all kinds of stuff on it. It's been here before but from the looks of it, it had a Bro tune in it. There was quite a bit to straighten out and the power is up 74 whp and 71 ft lbs from when it came in. I added fresh Iridiums, fresh plug wires, made my base pull and was done with the tune in 5 pulls.
Old Jun 22, 2012, 09:50 AM
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David you basically threw him under the bus without actually mentioning his name lol .. If his tune was Sub par and he is in fact reputable, I'm sure he tunes a lot of people here and they don't even know that there getting a sub par tune..

I'm waiting for someone to chime in and put him on blast,Because it will happen eventually after that statement..

Last edited by KaRboN; Jun 22, 2012 at 10:12 AM.
Old Jun 22, 2012, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by David Buschur
I have had cars I've done in 3-4 pulls in the past. I get out, tell the customer if he wants to feel like he is getting more for his money I can sit in the car and make more pulls but the tune is done and they can get on the road to go home if they like. hahaha They have all laughed and thanked me for not wasting their time.


Please David, beat on my car some more... try 5th and 6th gear too
Old Jun 22, 2012, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by David Buschur
Funny this popped up, I just had a rant on our Facebook page yesterday about e-tunes.

I'm lucky enough to not have a lot of cars come in that were tuned remotely. I do get them that were tuned elsewhere and can find something wrong with most of those. There are a few, very few, tuners out there that do a really-really good job.

Personally, I don't think it's possible on a really big build, to make a car run correctly by tuning it via e-mail. I need to be in the car, hear it, feel it and have all the feedback of driving it to get it to an acceptable level. There are just some things you are not going to get spot on sitting at a laptop and looking at logs, end of story.

Yesterday my rant stemmed from a customer who came here with a BR "engine problem". Ends up the problem was a fuel problem, as odd as that was. While it was here I wanted to get it on the dyno and offered to do it for free. He's spent a lot of money, came a considerable way for us to listen to the engine and had an e-tune. The particular tuner who tuned the car has tuned his fair share of cars via the internet. Has a good reputation and we are in good standings with each other.

However, this car would barely idle. 2 liter, our cams, ported head, 1200cc injectors, double pumper etc., etc. When you turned the A/C on, it quite instantly, impossible to drive the car with the A/C on at all. Long term fuel trims were +12%. High octane fuel map and low were set the same. High octane timing map had LESS timing in it up top than the Low octane fuel map. Knock tables were dumbed down a bit, which added to the risk of the poorly done fuel and ignition tables. I can go on more but the fact is, good reputation, guy is making money tuning cars on the internet and this map was very-very SUB PAR.

The car had been here before and even on a more basic build had idle issues, I loaned the owner an IAC and told him to swap it out later. The one I gave him for some reason didn't work. I believe this particular car still has an IAC problem as the idle was very-very tough to get right, doing it via e-mail, I'd say it would be impossible. This particular tuner also had the idle tables nearly stock and what I'd say as set up incorrectly. The power through the VD was 600+ on this build. I ran the car with the e-tuned map first, with the OWNER IN THE CAR SO HE COULD SEE I WASN'T PULLING ANY TRICKS and it made about 450 whp with the power falling off after 6500 rpm.

When I was done, the car idled MOST of the time, fuel/timing tables were set up correctly, A/C could be run, fuel trims were spot on, the car made power all the way to 8,000 rpm and was 498'ish and we were simply out of injector, car was on E85.

In defense of e-tunes. I have never done them, I refuse because I think it's a **** poor way to tune car. However, when Al was working with us we sold a lot of flashes for our Stage 1, 2, 3 and 4 kits. Now these kits were done on our dyno or other dyno with those exact combination of parts and they were very close. A Stage 1-4 car is fairly mild and being as all the parts were the same for all the cars those tunes worked well. A mild car like that can be tuned via e-mail I would say.

Also, the comment about tuning a car in a few pulls, that can be done for sure, especially on a Staged upgrade car when base maps have been established already, any tuner that can't pull that off should quit.

I watched one of the most respected tuners I know of Cal Hartline, tune some Buicks here last week. All big builds, big power cars and the ones that didn't have problems were done in just a handful of pulls.

I have had cars I've done in 3-4 pulls in the past. I get out, tell the customer if he wants to feel like he is getting more for his money I can sit in the car and make more pulls but the tune is done and they can get on the road to go home if they like. hahaha They have all laughed and thanked me for not wasting their time.


Old Jun 22, 2012, 10:45 AM
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id say email tune would only be if your nowhere near the tuning facility, and dont wanna drive far to it. One thing an email tuner cant do that a dyno tuner does, is hear if theres a mechanical issue, that the owner might be accustomed to hearing and not realizing theres an issue. Sometimes its hard to hear if say you have a slight boost leak, and your car isnt making the power up top it should be compared to those with similar mods. Depending on the email tuner, he might or might not realize why the car isnt producing the power it should be. Personally ive never really been a fan of email tunes combined with vd, reason being the road, the conditions outside, the potential for getting a ticket during a pull, a lot of variables come into play as to why the numbers might be slightly higher on a vd pull, compared to a controlled environment such as on the dyno. VD has its place for a tool, but it is better imo to have it dyno tuned. I dunno if its just me, but after viewing a few vd graphs i always notice how more round and less jagged the lines are for hp/tq, now I know about the whole smoothing effect that you can use on both vd and real dynos. But thats part of the reason why im a bit skeptical on it, they can make a horrible tune look decent. So in the end dyno tune all the way.
Old Jun 22, 2012, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by KaRboN
David you basically threw him under the bus without actually mentioning his name lol .. If his tune was Sub par and he is in fact reputable, I'm sure he tunes a lot of people here and they don't even know that there getting a sub par tune..

I'm waiting for someone to chime in and put him on blast,Because it will happen eventually after that statement..
No it won't because myself and the car owner are the only two aware of it and he doesn't post on here, just reads. He also, along with myself, don't want to cause the guy any problems or harm. He did a good job on the WOT throttle stuff I'm just picky and don't like seeing a lot of the other things in the map, he's not the only well known guy I've seen the same things from. I typically overkill the low fuel/timing maps so the car can make huge corrections if needed and I don't really like messing with the knock sensor unless it is 100% absolutely needed. The idle, I don't know what to say about that, maybe it wasn't covered/reported how poorly it idled. I don't even like to use the stock idle tables on a stock car, so maybe I'm weird. I like an EVO to idle around 1,000 rpm, not 800, especially with cams in it.
Old Jun 22, 2012, 12:05 PM
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BTW, a few things I forgot. #1, this car I was talking about, it has a VTA BOV on it and I kept forgetting that when I was working so hard at tuning the idle yesterday, that always makes it tougher. Also, the owner called me today and said he knows I only get ****ty calls most of the time so wanted to make sure he took the time to thank me for how well he was treated and to give me a report on the car. He said the idle is excellent, power is unbelievable compared to before, the car will now start when the engine is hot and not just when it's cold and the smoothness is incredible. I can't ask for much more than that! hahaha
Old Jun 22, 2012, 12:07 PM
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Something else, for those of you with cables, do yourself a favor. Just take a few minutes to look at your maps, the high/low fuel tables should not be the same, the fuel table numbers should be at least somewhat richer. More importantly, the high/low ignition tables should not be the same, low should be lower numbers. For the old maps with multiple high/low tables make sure the highs match, the lows are lower and they match also. That car yesterday had the top end of the low timing map set higher than the high octane map, bad mistake.
Old Jun 22, 2012, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by David Buschur
Something else, for those of you with cables, do yourself a favor. Just take a few minutes to look at your maps, the high/low fuel tables should not be the same, the fuel table numbers should be at least somewhat richer. More importantly, the high/low ignition tables should not be the same, low should be lower numbers. For the old maps with multiple high/low tables make sure the highs match, the lows are lower and they match also. That car yesterday had the top end of the low timing map set higher than the high octane map, bad mistake.
I've seen this before also when I was tuned by someone in the past who I am not going to say.

Last thing you want is the car to knock, switch to the low maps only to have the same values...
Old Jun 22, 2012, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by evilempire76
Evoscan is a program used to log data to see what a car is doing. It allows for logging of different parameters to provide information to allow a person to see how well the car is running and make changes as necessary.

http://www.evoscan.com/evoscan-gps-o...ogger-software

Ecuflash is a program that is used to reflash the ecu with changes that were noted during datalogging. It allows a person to tune a car. You will want a tactrix cable linked below. I would also recommend a wideband 02 gauge like the AEM Uego.

http://www.tactrix.com/index.php?opt...d=36&Itemid=58

http://www.tactrix.com/index.php?opt...id=6&Itemid=53

Virtual dyno is a program that will show "virtual" dyno numbers based on a datalog.

http://www.bradbarnhill.com/projects/VirtualDyno/

Ecuboost is boost being controlled by the ecu and a usually an aftermarket 3 port boost solenoid like the Grimmspeed. But there are other 3 ports solenoids and the factory solenoid can be used in some case as well.

How is it you have all of those mods listed and don't know anything about the tuning? Did you recently purchase the car with all of those mods?
Yea I bought the car with all the mods except the o2 dump, Tial qr and the 84mm fp cover, the car came from phoenix and the previous owner had a list of what was done to the car it has a tune but dont know who tuned it. When I was back in school the previous owner dynoed it and it made 352whp


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