AC quit (not a shim/clutch issue)
Nov 6, 2014, 01:41 PM
#1
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AC quit (not a shim/clutch issue)
AC stopped working. Did some reading, figured it was the common clutch wear / clearance issue that hits a lot of EVOs with some mileage on the AC unit.
Tried tapping the clutch, didn't engage... went a head and pulled it apart and took out the shim just to try it out (air gap is extremely small now, so even though it isn't right, it should work just to test.....) nothing.
Checked all the fuses/relays and everything is fine. Lights all come on inside, fans come on etc. Tried to add refrigerant, figured it got low somehow.. actually it's a bit high if anything. Hmmm.....
Running out of ideas here, what else can I check... ?? thanks for any thoughts....
Tried tapping the clutch, didn't engage... went a head and pulled it apart and took out the shim just to try it out (air gap is extremely small now, so even though it isn't right, it should work just to test.....) nothing.
Checked all the fuses/relays and everything is fine. Lights all come on inside, fans come on etc. Tried to add refrigerant, figured it got low somehow.. actually it's a bit high if anything. Hmmm.....
Running out of ideas here, what else can I check... ?? thanks for any thoughts....
Nov 6, 2014, 02:48 PM
#2
Don't randomly do crap like that, you're going to make things worse. For starters, you tampered with the refrigerant level, so now you are going to have to have a shop charge it properly that likely would not have been necessary.
Your symptoms already give you a pretty fair indication of what is going on. The fans come on so you can rule out refrigerant charge with 99% certainty. If the charge were low it would first stop cooling but still operate the clutch (which you know isn't the case since your clutch is not engaging), and then create a shut down situation when it gets extremely low resulting in the fans shutting down, AC light flashing etc.... things you are not seeing.
Same thing goes with your pressure switch and thermister; if they were out of range you would have an AC shut down, fan would go off, light would flash.
Being able to rule out so much so easily, what you need to do now is work backward from your problem.
Turn the engine on and turn on the AC.
Verify the AC light stays lit solid.
Go under hood and pull the clutch relay (The one in the standalone panel, rear-most relay).
Does the relay click when you remove it/plug it back in?
If it does, barring anything unusual like a wiring problem, the clutch magnet failed. These fail A LOT. You won't read about it a lot because most people just choose brute force attack and end up "fixing it" accidentally after replacing a half dozen parts including a compressor/clutch assembly.
If the relay does not click, and you are certain all fuses are OK, there is likely something more nefarious going on, but I won't even get in to that on speculation as it is rare.
Just keep in mind that adding refrigerant has likely jacked your system up badly already and may have to be corrected before you can actually fix anything. People don't realize that most of those cans you buy at ChinaZone have more refrigerant in them that the entire capacity of the vehicle, and unless you were completely empty to begin with, adding even a portion of a can will result in massive over pressure, compressor wear, etc.
Your symptoms already give you a pretty fair indication of what is going on. The fans come on so you can rule out refrigerant charge with 99% certainty. If the charge were low it would first stop cooling but still operate the clutch (which you know isn't the case since your clutch is not engaging), and then create a shut down situation when it gets extremely low resulting in the fans shutting down, AC light flashing etc.... things you are not seeing.
Same thing goes with your pressure switch and thermister; if they were out of range you would have an AC shut down, fan would go off, light would flash.
Being able to rule out so much so easily, what you need to do now is work backward from your problem.
Turn the engine on and turn on the AC.
Verify the AC light stays lit solid.
Go under hood and pull the clutch relay (The one in the standalone panel, rear-most relay).
Does the relay click when you remove it/plug it back in?
If it does, barring anything unusual like a wiring problem, the clutch magnet failed. These fail A LOT. You won't read about it a lot because most people just choose brute force attack and end up "fixing it" accidentally after replacing a half dozen parts including a compressor/clutch assembly.
If the relay does not click, and you are certain all fuses are OK, there is likely something more nefarious going on, but I won't even get in to that on speculation as it is rare.
Just keep in mind that adding refrigerant has likely jacked your system up badly already and may have to be corrected before you can actually fix anything. People don't realize that most of those cans you buy at ChinaZone have more refrigerant in them that the entire capacity of the vehicle, and unless you were completely empty to begin with, adding even a portion of a can will result in massive over pressure, compressor wear, etc.
Nov 6, 2014, 06:46 PM
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Don't randomly do crap like that, you're going to make things worse. For starters, you tampered with the refrigerant level, so now you are going to have to have a shop charge it properly that likely would not have been necessary.
Everything you said about the lights, fans etc. is accurate and makes sense.
I took it a step further tonight...
I just tried to manually put power to the wire going to the compressor, nothing happens. Apparently the coil that energizes the magnet isn't working or it would have tried to grab... am I wrong? (Obviously the motor wasn't running, but unless there is something special about this unit, it should have made the clutch grab (I have done this before and made them manually engage).
If it does, barring anything unusual like a wiring problem, the clutch magnet failed.
Last edited by GravityKnight; Nov 6, 2014 at 09:33 PM.
Nov 7, 2014, 07:36 AM
#5
If you shut the can off quickly you should be fine. I could go on for hours about how many terrible things come from those cans, things you don't see trying them a few times, things you see when you work on 20 cars a day and get self-service related system failures on a weekly basis.
But that is beside the point.
It sounds like the clutch coil is bad like we surmised. All of your symptoms indicated it, so no real surprise there.
The only things that will cause the clutch to not engage while the relay is operating would be wiring damage in between or in ridiculously rare cases the oil switch failing on the compressor (I've literally never seen this happen). If you wanted to rule that out you could just scotch lock the oil switch wires together.... again, its never it though.
As said, the coil magnets are crap, they fail a lot. They are cheap too though about $50. Takes all of five minutes to replace. You just need to take the belt off, unbolt the reaction plate, take off the bearing snap ring, pull the bearing, take off the coil snap ring and remove.
If the wiring gives you a hard time you can unbolt the compressor and let it hang (no need to discharge), you should be able to get it installed though, I always do.
But that is beside the point.
It sounds like the clutch coil is bad like we surmised. All of your symptoms indicated it, so no real surprise there.
The only things that will cause the clutch to not engage while the relay is operating would be wiring damage in between or in ridiculously rare cases the oil switch failing on the compressor (I've literally never seen this happen). If you wanted to rule that out you could just scotch lock the oil switch wires together.... again, its never it though.
As said, the coil magnets are crap, they fail a lot. They are cheap too though about $50. Takes all of five minutes to replace. You just need to take the belt off, unbolt the reaction plate, take off the bearing snap ring, pull the bearing, take off the coil snap ring and remove.
If the wiring gives you a hard time you can unbolt the compressor and let it hang (no need to discharge), you should be able to get it installed though, I always do.
Nov 7, 2014, 09:11 AM
#6
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refrigerant
I find it very hard to damage vehicle ac systems. Not sure if Evos have an accumulator but I would assume they do. This device helps prevent scenarios like over charging the system, to a point of course. You can not infinitely add refrigerant and expect the accumulator to handle it all. With that said you can over charge the system. First it would become inefficient and charging after that the system would trip out on high pressure.
Once it trips you cannot "charge" the system anymore. The only transfer from your bottle to the system will be equalizing of pressures.
So in this case his compressor was never running and only equalization was occurring. (the compressor must be running to properly charge any ac system.)
Correct me if I'm wrong please.
Btw: You need at least 50psi on the compressor/vacuum /low side of the system before the compressor will engage.
Just food for thought.
Once it trips you cannot "charge" the system anymore. The only transfer from your bottle to the system will be equalizing of pressures.
So in this case his compressor was never running and only equalization was occurring. (the compressor must be running to properly charge any ac system.)
Correct me if I'm wrong please.
Btw: You need at least 50psi on the compressor/vacuum /low side of the system before the compressor will engage.
Just food for thought.
Nov 7, 2014, 09:43 AM
#7
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If you shut the can off quickly you should be fine. I could go on for hours about how many terrible things come from those cans, things you don't see trying them a few times, things you see when you work on 20 cars a day and get self-service related system failures on a weekly basis.
But that is beside the point.
It sounds like the clutch coil is bad like we surmised. All of your symptoms indicated it, so no real surprise there.
The only things that will cause the clutch to not engage while the relay is operating would be wiring damage in between or in ridiculously rare cases the oil switch failing on the compressor (I've literally never seen this happen). If you wanted to rule that out you could just scotch lock the oil switch wires together.... again, its never it though.
As said, the coil magnets are crap, they fail a lot. They are cheap too though about $50. Takes all of five minutes to replace. You just need to take the belt off, unbolt the reaction plate, take off the bearing snap ring, pull the bearing, take off the coil snap ring and remove.
If the wiring gives you a hard time you can unbolt the compressor and let it hang (no need to discharge), you should be able to get it installed though, I always do.
But that is beside the point.
It sounds like the clutch coil is bad like we surmised. All of your symptoms indicated it, so no real surprise there.
The only things that will cause the clutch to not engage while the relay is operating would be wiring damage in between or in ridiculously rare cases the oil switch failing on the compressor (I've literally never seen this happen). If you wanted to rule that out you could just scotch lock the oil switch wires together.... again, its never it though.
As said, the coil magnets are crap, they fail a lot. They are cheap too though about $50. Takes all of five minutes to replace. You just need to take the belt off, unbolt the reaction plate, take off the bearing snap ring, pull the bearing, take off the coil snap ring and remove.
If the wiring gives you a hard time you can unbolt the compressor and let it hang (no need to discharge), you should be able to get it installed though, I always do.
Sounds good thanks for the tips. Yea it does look very easy to replace. Anywhere I can order the coil magnets online? Only place I saw was $80. Thanks
EDIT: $70
Last edited by GravityKnight; Nov 7, 2014 at 09:54 AM.
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Nov 7, 2014, 09:55 AM
#8
Just for clarification.
It stopped working first then you added refrigerant?
Sometimes adding refrigerant and over filling the system will cause it not to work, gauges you get on the bottles to fill yourself are not accurate, evo system is very sensitive.
Just some info from my experience.
It stopped working first then you added refrigerant?
Sometimes adding refrigerant and over filling the system will cause it not to work, gauges you get on the bottles to fill yourself are not accurate, evo system is very sensitive.
Just some info from my experience.
Nov 7, 2014, 10:23 AM
#9
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Yes, it randomly quit. One of the things I checked was to see if it was low, it was not. I didn't actually add any refrigerant (to speak of).
But it's obvious it's the coil, putting power to it does nothing. Was hoping it was the other common EVO AC problem (shim / gap).. but didn't get that lucky. Could be worse.
But it's obvious it's the coil, putting power to it does nothing. Was hoping it was the other common EVO AC problem (shim / gap).. but didn't get that lucky. Could be worse.
Last edited by GravityKnight; Nov 7, 2014 at 10:33 AM.
Nov 7, 2014, 10:43 AM
#10
No accumulator, no protection function apart from pump shut off which has been discussed already and that will not prevent charging just slow it down (your idea of equalization is still correct though).
The problem with these mechanic in a can things is that there is NO way of knowing what you are doing at all. Yay you have a low side gauge. A low side gauge is 100% useless without a high side gauge. It is there to look pretty and move around and sell the bottle versus the one without the pretty gauge, but it can't tell you accurately what is going on inside the system. The low side pressure is only a reference against the high side which is a more accurate depiction of the system charge. Basically, consider that low side gauge on those fix it kits to be like a narrow band A/F gauge. Yeah it sort of tells you something, but nothing useful. It only makes you feel like you are smart. The reason there are never any $20 magic cans with high side gauges is because someone would find a way to kill themselves with it and they don't want the liability.
And that is just the charging problem. That is really the least issue as it only really affects your ability to fix the vehicle if you jack up your pressures. It can only go over charged so much before a safety shut down so wear isn't an immediate issue etc.
The biggest problem and what ends up ruining systems is that these kits over look one HUGE problem... The refrigerant went somewhere. It didn't get consumed, it leaked. And in order to leak, air has to get in. The refrigerant has to be displaced with something in order to get out (like holding water in a straw with your thumb). Once air gets in two problems occur. First, your efficiency immediately goes into the toilet. This is because air compresses, reducing pump efficiency. Just like air in your brake lines. It is never immediately noticed as going from not working to working in any capacity is a victory to most and don't think to check core temperatures etc.
Second, where there is air there is water. The air in the system will condense and create water in the system which will have numerous issues.... of course it will further reduce efficiency, but in addition the water will cause accelerated wear to the pump. Further, as the moisture increases it will eventually plug the drier as the desiccant maxes out which will further strain the pump.
And still..... even if you get lucky and top off before air/moisture gets excessive, you still have a leak. You fixed -nothing- by making the system operate, you just bought yourself some time and if you're lucky didn't set wheels in motion to cause damage.
As I said, I could go on for hours about these things. They should be illegal; the people selling them are praying on the ignorance of their customers doing very little to inform them how bad an idea topping off is in general, let alone the inaccuracy of their "systems". They are making money off the backs of people thinking they are doing the right thing. These things are absolutely the worst thing to come of R134A not being regulated correctly. They operate no differently than the R12 counterparts that were illegal in the US; the only thing that saved them was the inability to hook up backward like on the R12 systems and injure yourself. They don't give a crap about if they work or not, as long as they are free from physical liability claims.
The up side is people that insist on playing AC mechanic keep my doors open for me. Not a week goes by through the summer that I don't get at least one car either way over charged (and "green" on the toy gauge!), packed full of water, or with compressor breaking apart etc after someone dicked around too much with a easy-ac-5000 whatever can.
They have their place, don't get me wrong. If I was a piece of shiat running a buy here pay here lot and wanted to make AC fixes the wrong way so they worked long enough to sell a car, I'd be all over them. I'm not a piece of shiat though.
It's real hard to get it through a lot of peoples heads that what the can says is vague at best, if not inaccurate. Surely they can't be dishonest or misleading, especially with the use of exclamation points to get their message across. No that wouldn't be right, it must be 100% true that there is no reason to fix a car properly and all I need is this $20 can. Absolutely.
There is a reason people are properly trained to work on AC systems. Its because they can't be fixed by cramming more refrigerant into them. Some people will never learn though, and that's fine. It pays my mortgage so whatevs.
The problem with these mechanic in a can things is that there is NO way of knowing what you are doing at all. Yay you have a low side gauge. A low side gauge is 100% useless without a high side gauge. It is there to look pretty and move around and sell the bottle versus the one without the pretty gauge, but it can't tell you accurately what is going on inside the system. The low side pressure is only a reference against the high side which is a more accurate depiction of the system charge. Basically, consider that low side gauge on those fix it kits to be like a narrow band A/F gauge. Yeah it sort of tells you something, but nothing useful. It only makes you feel like you are smart. The reason there are never any $20 magic cans with high side gauges is because someone would find a way to kill themselves with it and they don't want the liability.
And that is just the charging problem. That is really the least issue as it only really affects your ability to fix the vehicle if you jack up your pressures. It can only go over charged so much before a safety shut down so wear isn't an immediate issue etc.
The biggest problem and what ends up ruining systems is that these kits over look one HUGE problem... The refrigerant went somewhere. It didn't get consumed, it leaked. And in order to leak, air has to get in. The refrigerant has to be displaced with something in order to get out (like holding water in a straw with your thumb). Once air gets in two problems occur. First, your efficiency immediately goes into the toilet. This is because air compresses, reducing pump efficiency. Just like air in your brake lines. It is never immediately noticed as going from not working to working in any capacity is a victory to most and don't think to check core temperatures etc.
Second, where there is air there is water. The air in the system will condense and create water in the system which will have numerous issues.... of course it will further reduce efficiency, but in addition the water will cause accelerated wear to the pump. Further, as the moisture increases it will eventually plug the drier as the desiccant maxes out which will further strain the pump.
And still..... even if you get lucky and top off before air/moisture gets excessive, you still have a leak. You fixed -nothing- by making the system operate, you just bought yourself some time and if you're lucky didn't set wheels in motion to cause damage.
As I said, I could go on for hours about these things. They should be illegal; the people selling them are praying on the ignorance of their customers doing very little to inform them how bad an idea topping off is in general, let alone the inaccuracy of their "systems". They are making money off the backs of people thinking they are doing the right thing. These things are absolutely the worst thing to come of R134A not being regulated correctly. They operate no differently than the R12 counterparts that were illegal in the US; the only thing that saved them was the inability to hook up backward like on the R12 systems and injure yourself. They don't give a crap about if they work or not, as long as they are free from physical liability claims.
The up side is people that insist on playing AC mechanic keep my doors open for me. Not a week goes by through the summer that I don't get at least one car either way over charged (and "green" on the toy gauge!), packed full of water, or with compressor breaking apart etc after someone dicked around too much with a easy-ac-5000 whatever can.
They have their place, don't get me wrong. If I was a piece of shiat running a buy here pay here lot and wanted to make AC fixes the wrong way so they worked long enough to sell a car, I'd be all over them. I'm not a piece of shiat though.
It's real hard to get it through a lot of peoples heads that what the can says is vague at best, if not inaccurate. Surely they can't be dishonest or misleading, especially with the use of exclamation points to get their message across. No that wouldn't be right, it must be 100% true that there is no reason to fix a car properly and all I need is this $20 can. Absolutely.
There is a reason people are properly trained to work on AC systems. Its because they can't be fixed by cramming more refrigerant into them. Some people will never learn though, and that's fine. It pays my mortgage so whatevs.
Nov 7, 2014, 01:19 PM
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I think you put in a lot of good info above superbovine. It's interesting to learn a little more about the AC system. I'm far from a noob under the hood- I've built motors, several turbo setups from scratch, tuned 25-30 vehicles etc. but have literally only "messed" with AC. And in the scheme of all things there is a lot I obviously don't know. I've had good luck with the cheap cans, but I actually had no idea there was potentially that many issues that you can have. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
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