Jedinite and others, track prowess of Evo. . .
Apr 6, 2004, 10:49 AM
#16
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Originally posted by sccavee
Well the SCCA must think the stock Evo has some track skills as they have classified it in T1. T1 is Z06's, 911's, and vipers.
Well the SCCA must think the stock Evo has some track skills as they have classified it in T1. T1 is Z06's, 911's, and vipers.
Apr 6, 2004, 10:58 AM
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Originally posted by M3lachsilber
On the topic of track BMW's and the EVO..
It's been said that the E30 M3 can hang with the E36 M3's at the track due to its weight and suspension design..
I wonder if it can hang with the EVO through the twisties given this fact?
My guess is the EVO will lose the E30 M3 on the straights but the question is will the E30 catch up when the curves come??
Just wondering these points if anyone knows or has had experiencing racing an E30 M3..and can comment!?
On the topic of track BMW's and the EVO..
It's been said that the E30 M3 can hang with the E36 M3's at the track due to its weight and suspension design..
I wonder if it can hang with the EVO through the twisties given this fact?
My guess is the EVO will lose the E30 M3 on the straights but the question is will the E30 catch up when the curves come??
Just wondering these points if anyone knows or has had experiencing racing an E30 M3..and can comment!?
I have drivern my friend's bone stock E30 M3 and I can till you that thing is a truely blast to drive! I have never driven a car that gives you so much feedback through the steering wheel.
The E30 M3 is a true race car modified to be driven on the street.
Apr 6, 2004, 10:59 AM
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EVO vs. BMWs
hi guys.
i think i can help out a little here.... i am a brand new EVO owner (less than 2 weeks!). i also have some track credentials:
i instruct for the various PCA, BMW CCA, Ferrari, Lotus, Miata/Mazda clubs, etc. i am also a liscenced road racer; i race in the Honda Challenge with NASA (Virginia chapter) in my H1 Honda Civic. i also race a backup car in PS-1 with NASA, and in ST-1 with EMRA (93 Probe V6). I've got a Lotus Super Seven that i do a little vintage racing with, when its not broke!!!! I've been doing track related stuff for about 12 years now (damn, that makes me an old-timer, i guess!).
my cousin is an instructor and also a racer with the BMW Club. he runs a 88 E30 M3 in J-stock class. that means, almost completely stock motor, and some fairly good suspension mods are allowed. i have driven his car many many times on the track.
I have driven many student's cars from the BMW Club; quite a few E36 M3. I have ridden in the E46 M3.
the general "feel" of the stock EVO, handling and balance wise, is close to the E30 M3. especially the steering feel. through the twisty parts of a track, the E30 would be right there with the EVO. also, the E30 brakes, although appearing small, REALLY stop the car. excellent brakes on the E30. I think my cousins tipps the scales at around 2800 lbs, so it is alot lighter than the EVO.
E36 racecars, in stock class prep, are put one class faster than the E30. they generally turn faster laptimes; they are MUCH faster down the straights, 192 hp vs 240 hp. and the E36 has tons of torque; the E30 4 cyl does not.
the E46 was a MONSTER in a straight line. super super ungodly fast. it would out pull a stock EVO (mine). as the speeds go higher, it will pull away more. it felt a little sloppier than my EVO in the technical stuff.
i think the EVO would have it in the twisty sections, and probably in the braking zones; it would be a fairly even matchup, considering equivalent drivers. but, drivers are rarely equivalent. on the track, it would probably come down to the best driver.....
many many many times i have been instructing with the PCA group in my old, 185k mile PS-1 Ford Probe racecar. its mostly stock, except for saftey equipment. totally stock engine, all original, never been apart. and i run in the top 30% of the instructor group when we are out "playing". this is due to the driving, not the machinery!
for you northeasters, i run around 2:18 at Watkins Glen in the Civic, about 2:21 in the old Probe. and a few times i have put full race AVON slicks on the Lotus, just for fun, and have run 2:13 at the Glen.....
i will probably take the EVO to at least one event; ya know, just to "see what she can do"! i'd think at the Glen she would do about 2:19 or so, with a good driver (on stock pads, tires, completely stock car, no mods)..... it feels pretty good right out of the box, to, me, at least!
hope that insight helps a little!
todd
ps if i had the money, i'd cage up and race this EVO for real, in a new york minute. its just, you see, i'm financially challenged; i can barely afford to race the cars i do now!
i think i can help out a little here.... i am a brand new EVO owner (less than 2 weeks!). i also have some track credentials:
i instruct for the various PCA, BMW CCA, Ferrari, Lotus, Miata/Mazda clubs, etc. i am also a liscenced road racer; i race in the Honda Challenge with NASA (Virginia chapter) in my H1 Honda Civic. i also race a backup car in PS-1 with NASA, and in ST-1 with EMRA (93 Probe V6). I've got a Lotus Super Seven that i do a little vintage racing with, when its not broke!!!! I've been doing track related stuff for about 12 years now (damn, that makes me an old-timer, i guess!).
my cousin is an instructor and also a racer with the BMW Club. he runs a 88 E30 M3 in J-stock class. that means, almost completely stock motor, and some fairly good suspension mods are allowed. i have driven his car many many times on the track.
I have driven many student's cars from the BMW Club; quite a few E36 M3. I have ridden in the E46 M3.
the general "feel" of the stock EVO, handling and balance wise, is close to the E30 M3. especially the steering feel. through the twisty parts of a track, the E30 would be right there with the EVO. also, the E30 brakes, although appearing small, REALLY stop the car. excellent brakes on the E30. I think my cousins tipps the scales at around 2800 lbs, so it is alot lighter than the EVO.
E36 racecars, in stock class prep, are put one class faster than the E30. they generally turn faster laptimes; they are MUCH faster down the straights, 192 hp vs 240 hp. and the E36 has tons of torque; the E30 4 cyl does not.
the E46 was a MONSTER in a straight line. super super ungodly fast. it would out pull a stock EVO (mine). as the speeds go higher, it will pull away more. it felt a little sloppier than my EVO in the technical stuff.
i think the EVO would have it in the twisty sections, and probably in the braking zones; it would be a fairly even matchup, considering equivalent drivers. but, drivers are rarely equivalent. on the track, it would probably come down to the best driver.....
many many many times i have been instructing with the PCA group in my old, 185k mile PS-1 Ford Probe racecar. its mostly stock, except for saftey equipment. totally stock engine, all original, never been apart. and i run in the top 30% of the instructor group when we are out "playing". this is due to the driving, not the machinery!
for you northeasters, i run around 2:18 at Watkins Glen in the Civic, about 2:21 in the old Probe. and a few times i have put full race AVON slicks on the Lotus, just for fun, and have run 2:13 at the Glen.....
i will probably take the EVO to at least one event; ya know, just to "see what she can do"! i'd think at the Glen she would do about 2:19 or so, with a good driver (on stock pads, tires, completely stock car, no mods)..... it feels pretty good right out of the box, to, me, at least!
hope that insight helps a little!
todd
ps if i had the money, i'd cage up and race this EVO for real, in a new york minute. its just, you see, i'm financially challenged; i can barely afford to race the cars i do now!
Apr 6, 2004, 11:07 AM
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Originally posted by M3lachsilber
Why not?
Why not?
Apr 6, 2004, 11:12 AM
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Originally posted by whiterexman
T1's regulation does not allow you to increase boost/fuel/timing on your ECU on the EVO. The EVO stands no chance against ZO6 or Viper (which are the current front runner) w/out bumping up the horsepower.
T1's regulation does not allow you to increase boost/fuel/timing on your ECU on the EVO. The EVO stands no chance against ZO6 or Viper (which are the current front runner) w/out bumping up the horsepower.
i would agree. the ZO6 weight is the same, if not a little lighter, than the EVO. and it has a 405 vs 271 hp advantage. and a tire advantage. and huge brakes. and a track ready suspension that is as good as the EVOs.
on a really tight track with slippery conditions, i think the EVO might have a prayer. otherwise, no way.
Apr 6, 2004, 11:27 AM
#22
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Wow..
Now this info was awesome..Thanks guys!!
Great to hear some real comparisons from track experienced fellas..
And the E30 M3 I knew would give the EVO a run for it's money..
Not bad for an 80's car, eh??!
I always tell people my EVO is like a Japanese E30 M3..(fast forward) cus there are soo many similarities in style, engine, and what not!! (except for the turbo part)
Great info again guys!! Thanks for sharing!
Now this info was awesome..Thanks guys!!
Great to hear some real comparisons from track experienced fellas..
And the E30 M3 I knew would give the EVO a run for it's money..
Not bad for an 80's car, eh??!
I always tell people my EVO is like a Japanese E30 M3..(fast forward) cus there are soo many similarities in style, engine, and what not!! (except for the turbo part)
Great info again guys!! Thanks for sharing!
Apr 6, 2004, 12:26 PM
#23
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d15, thanks for the info. Between a properly setup E36 or a well sorted E30 and the Evo, oftentimes it will indeed come down to driver. Indeed, I routinely pass Z06's on the track, even in the instructors' run groups, but I'm not so delusional to think that it's because my car is faster. If I don't get an Evo, and continue tracking my E36, it'll be fun to see how the things shake out. I remain attracted to the intense factory tuning out of the box, sophisticated drivetrain and AWD though.
whiterex, glad you are back to the track! I took a year off as I've been busy with my business, only now getting a breather to start having fun again. I was at TWS last month. On 235 Kumhos, I was not back in form, but still managed some 2.04's. My fastest time last year was 2.01.xx, but mostly 2.03.xx laps if I was pushing, with a few 2.02s (the .01 could have been an anomaly since I was unable to duplicate it).
It's pretty hard for an E36 to break 2's at TWS. However, a friend has the BMW CCA Stock track record in a Stock class E36, pulling 1.57.00 in a sprint race, on Hoosiers. I've been in the car with him at the .57 pace, and it is brutally fast. . . a whole world of difference from .03's.
Independent of the Evo, my car gets shipped to Salt Lake City to have Jim Conforti install and custom dyno tune his co-devloped twin screw blower, like the one in the Ford GT-40. Here's the dyno:
http://www.eurosporthighperformance....M3SCvM3Stk.pdf
While not the 700 rwhp that some insane Evos/Supra/STI's etc make, I think I'll make due. Probably worth a second or so on the track if I can figger out how to drive the damn thing.
I remain attracted to the intense factory tuning out of the box, sophisticated drivetrain and AWD though.whiterex, glad you are back to the track! I took a year off as I've been busy with my business, only now getting a breather to start having fun again. I was at TWS last month. On 235 Kumhos, I was not back in form, but still managed some 2.04's. My fastest time last year was 2.01.xx, but mostly 2.03.xx laps if I was pushing, with a few 2.02s (the .01 could have been an anomaly since I was unable to duplicate it).
It's pretty hard for an E36 to break 2's at TWS. However, a friend has the BMW CCA Stock track record in a Stock class E36, pulling 1.57.00 in a sprint race, on Hoosiers. I've been in the car with him at the .57 pace, and it is brutally fast. . . a whole world of difference from .03's.
Independent of the Evo, my car gets shipped to Salt Lake City to have Jim Conforti install and custom dyno tune his co-devloped twin screw blower, like the one in the Ford GT-40. Here's the dyno:
http://www.eurosporthighperformance....M3SCvM3Stk.pdf
While not the 700 rwhp that some insane Evos/Supra/STI's etc make, I think I'll make due. Probably worth a second or so on the track if I can figger out how to drive the damn thing.
Apr 6, 2004, 12:49 PM
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with respect to the blower conversion on your BMW, i have the following to offer....
the absolute fastest, most brutal machine i have ever driven on track was at Pocono Raceway, on the North Course. one of my students showed up driving a 94 Pontiac Firehawk T/A. with 6 pot Brembo brakes on it. an SLP suspension. 6 speeder tranny. 275/315 front/rear hoosiers. and a 383, stroked, forged, procharger blown-intercooled mill. the guy said it was a conservative 550 at the rear wheels at 8 psi. he was very careful driving it (he was scared of it, and rightfully so!), and he asked me to take it out and "show him what it could do". he said "be careful driving it. don't give it full power unless you are in a straight line and doing better than 80 mph". we both climbed in and headed out onto the track in the Instructor Group.
the car was a MONSTER. it FLEW past the 996 TTs on the bowl straightaway. with a 3.27 rear gear, I redlined (7k rpm) 5th gear, and was afraid to go to 6th. we are talking 160 mph ++ in a early 90's "Guido" GM product! it handled like a pig (mega mega understeer, switching to mega mega oversteer when feeding in just a little too much throttle), but would stop fairly OK. didn't really matter much; with that much power, nothing could touch it. i was doing 57 sec flat laps at Pocono North. i did 5 laps only, plus two cool downs. didn't need to do any more (car felt like it was a little "on the edge", and i didn't want to be the one driving it when the rear end blew into a million pieces, or when the tranny liquified, or..... you get the picture!).
i think your BMW will be like that car, except it will retain the awesome handling, braking, feel, etc.
i just hope it retains the reliability!
todd
ps that was on a saturday; on sunday, with the owner driving, it blew up fairly big-time. coolant all over the windshield, etc. head gasket, i think!
the absolute fastest, most brutal machine i have ever driven on track was at Pocono Raceway, on the North Course. one of my students showed up driving a 94 Pontiac Firehawk T/A. with 6 pot Brembo brakes on it. an SLP suspension. 6 speeder tranny. 275/315 front/rear hoosiers. and a 383, stroked, forged, procharger blown-intercooled mill. the guy said it was a conservative 550 at the rear wheels at 8 psi. he was very careful driving it (he was scared of it, and rightfully so!), and he asked me to take it out and "show him what it could do". he said "be careful driving it. don't give it full power unless you are in a straight line and doing better than 80 mph". we both climbed in and headed out onto the track in the Instructor Group.
the car was a MONSTER. it FLEW past the 996 TTs on the bowl straightaway. with a 3.27 rear gear, I redlined (7k rpm) 5th gear, and was afraid to go to 6th. we are talking 160 mph ++ in a early 90's "Guido" GM product! it handled like a pig (mega mega understeer, switching to mega mega oversteer when feeding in just a little too much throttle), but would stop fairly OK. didn't really matter much; with that much power, nothing could touch it. i was doing 57 sec flat laps at Pocono North. i did 5 laps only, plus two cool downs. didn't need to do any more (car felt like it was a little "on the edge", and i didn't want to be the one driving it when the rear end blew into a million pieces, or when the tranny liquified, or..... you get the picture!).
i think your BMW will be like that car, except it will retain the awesome handling, braking, feel, etc.
i just hope it retains the reliability!
todd
ps that was on a saturday; on sunday, with the owner driving, it blew up fairly big-time. coolant all over the windshield, etc. head gasket, i think!
Apr 6, 2004, 12:59 PM
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Great story with the T/A!!
I get the feeling that even with the suspension setup it still would have been a better drag car though..
I wouldn't have wanted to right seat those laps unless it was my car..freakin scary ****. 
Those cars were always scary because of the massive understeer to oversteer at the flick of the wrist..or throttle dab..
Crazy that the next day it self destructed..
Perhaps it got "worked" the day before pretty well..
Apr 6, 2004, 01:26 PM
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well, i guess i have alot of track stories! i generally do at least 20+ weekends per year; about 3/4 of those are race weekends now, with just a few instructionals thrown in; just not enough time in the year!!!!
i have quite a few incar vids of various races of mine; not your typical, drivers ed incar stuff, i've got some good clips during the heat of the battle....
don't have anywhere to host them; they are mostly about 45 sec to 1 minute; if anyone wishes, i can email them out to be hosted somewhere....
mostly of the PS-1 Probe and the H1 Honda Civic...
later,
todd
d15b7@aol.com
i have quite a few incar vids of various races of mine; not your typical, drivers ed incar stuff, i've got some good clips during the heat of the battle....
don't have anywhere to host them; they are mostly about 45 sec to 1 minute; if anyone wishes, i can email them out to be hosted somewhere....
mostly of the PS-1 Probe and the H1 Honda Civic...
later,
todd
d15b7@aol.com
Apr 6, 2004, 01:43 PM
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frayed: When were you at TWS? I was there for the Driver's Edge event on March 6-7. My first track day, so I don't know if I'm too qualified to discuss the Evo's merits and demerits of being a track car.
I do know that it was very forgiving and easy to drive fast, though. My instructor claims that I was saved by my R-comp Victoracers once or twice, but being as it was also my first event on R-comps, I can't make any comparisons there either. My car was essentially stock, with Ferrodo DS-2500 pads, ATE fluid, and 245/45-17 victoracers as the only mods.
I also let my instructor, Bill Kim, drive the car in one session. He flogged the hell out of it and was keep up with and passed a T2 prepped M3 roadster (? the hatchback one)... I don't know if that's any comparison point or not. When we were done he seemed to have nothing but praise for the car, especially the brakes.
I'm thinking of going back soon, maybe with PCA in May. If I can't get into that, maybe I'll head up to MSR or try TWS with another group. I'm just itching to get back out there and run again.
I do know that it was very forgiving and easy to drive fast, though. My instructor claims that I was saved by my R-comp Victoracers once or twice, but being as it was also my first event on R-comps, I can't make any comparisons there either. My car was essentially stock, with Ferrodo DS-2500 pads, ATE fluid, and 245/45-17 victoracers as the only mods.
I also let my instructor, Bill Kim, drive the car in one session. He flogged the hell out of it and was keep up with and passed a T2 prepped M3 roadster (? the hatchback one)... I don't know if that's any comparison point or not. When we were done he seemed to have nothing but praise for the car, especially the brakes.
I'm thinking of going back soon, maybe with PCA in May. If I can't get into that, maybe I'll head up to MSR or try TWS with another group. I'm just itching to get back out there and run again.
Apr 6, 2004, 01:50 PM
#30
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don't have anywhere to host them; they are mostly about 45 sec to 1 minute; if anyone wishes, i can email them out to be hosted somewhere....