Jedinite and others, track prowess of Evo. . .
Apr 5, 2004, 11:39 AM
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Jedinite and others, track prowess of Evo. . .
particularly as compared to an E36 M3?
Jedinite, on bimmerforums, you posted:
"
I'm considering an Evo, and b/c it's very difficult to get track time in a car you don't own, input from the track guys is pretty crucial. From what I can tell so far, it is a giantkiller on the track, against pretty much anything except a Z06 an 996TT or GT3.
Jedinite, on bimmerforums, you posted:
"
Stock for stock, the Evo will run circles around the e36 M3 at the track. I've yet to time it around my local track (give me a few more weeks) but based on personal experience I can guarantee the Evo will walk away from a stock e36 M3 on the track, especially after a few laps when the brakes will give it a massive edge.
The e46 M3 is a better comparison for the Evo at the track, again based on a few thousand miles behind the wheel of each. I'd imagine they'll be pretty close to each other, although I'd still be willing to bet that the Evo would be able to edge the e46 m3 at any given road course based on the advantage in handling and braking.
Let me break this down...
The Evo pulls .97 G on a skidpad, stock. Having logged a lot of miles in both, the Evo outhandles the stock e36 M3 without a question. The Evo is also more responsive and easier to drive, just point-and-shoot and hang on through the corners.
The Evo has way better brakes, stock for stock. The Evo is the best braking car that Motor Trend has ever tested, beating the previous king 360 Modena. And the giant Brembos on the Evo are going to last forever, whereas the M3's stock brakes are going to fade after a number of laps of threshold braking.
The e36 M3 was "the best handling car in the world" at the time of its release, but it wouldn't compete with the Evo now, stock for stock. The Evo has all the performance advantages: acceleration, horsepower, braking, handling, and even the performance intangables like responsiveness and balance.
The e36 M3 is a great car. But as another poster pointed out, its an autobahn sedan first and a race car second. The Evo is rally car first, race car second, and enough street car thrown in to get it legalized.
You want to build a race car on a budget? BMW is still the way to go. I'm still racing my 1995 M3 and will be for the forseeable future.
You want a quality car that can double as a street car and a track car, with excellent reliability and still a nice balance of luxury with sport? BMW has long been the pinacle of luxury sport sedans.
But if you want a daily driver that is a supercar in disguise, an edgy car (many would say "boy racer") that will run circles around cars three times its price, the Evo is hard to argue with...
I'm not here to pimp the Evo, I'm here as a bimmer enthusiast. But 99% of us are automotive fans, not just fans of the blau-and-weiss. The Evo is an amazing machine, an affordable supercar.
The e46 M3 is a better comparison for the Evo at the track, again based on a few thousand miles behind the wheel of each. I'd imagine they'll be pretty close to each other, although I'd still be willing to bet that the Evo would be able to edge the e46 m3 at any given road course based on the advantage in handling and braking.
Let me break this down...
The Evo pulls .97 G on a skidpad, stock. Having logged a lot of miles in both, the Evo outhandles the stock e36 M3 without a question. The Evo is also more responsive and easier to drive, just point-and-shoot and hang on through the corners.
The Evo has way better brakes, stock for stock. The Evo is the best braking car that Motor Trend has ever tested, beating the previous king 360 Modena. And the giant Brembos on the Evo are going to last forever, whereas the M3's stock brakes are going to fade after a number of laps of threshold braking.
The e36 M3 was "the best handling car in the world" at the time of its release, but it wouldn't compete with the Evo now, stock for stock. The Evo has all the performance advantages: acceleration, horsepower, braking, handling, and even the performance intangables like responsiveness and balance.
The e36 M3 is a great car. But as another poster pointed out, its an autobahn sedan first and a race car second. The Evo is rally car first, race car second, and enough street car thrown in to get it legalized.
You want to build a race car on a budget? BMW is still the way to go. I'm still racing my 1995 M3 and will be for the forseeable future.
You want a quality car that can double as a street car and a track car, with excellent reliability and still a nice balance of luxury with sport? BMW has long been the pinacle of luxury sport sedans.
But if you want a daily driver that is a supercar in disguise, an edgy car (many would say "boy racer") that will run circles around cars three times its price, the Evo is hard to argue with...
I'm not here to pimp the Evo, I'm here as a bimmer enthusiast. But 99% of us are automotive fans, not just fans of the blau-and-weiss. The Evo is an amazing machine, an affordable supercar.
Apr 5, 2004, 02:32 PM
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I think you will need to ask some specific questions to get some specific answers. There are lots of guys in this forum who have tracked their Evos. The only question you asked was actually answered by jedinites post, which is dead on btw.
SC
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Apr 5, 2004, 03:17 PM
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hey Pepe, nothing wrong with the M3, just looking to add to the stable. 
Hard to deny the performance of the Evo, and with the MR hopefully on the way, I get wood thinking about the track prowess it brings to the table. I'll probably keep the car as a street car, and add the Evo as a track *****, or car for when I'm feeling evil. I can easily soften up the M3 for reasonable daily driving.
Secret Chimp, what I'm really asking, which I failed to write, is that Jedinite's post is about a year old. I'm curious, if after a year more seat time with Evo, if he (or you, or anybody with decent track time), thinks about the car.
Stated another way, one's assessment of a car changes as you get faster. If you are skilled, and start pushing things, flaws in the car will show up, and strengths revealed. Since Jedinite's post was in the early days, I was curious on how folks' opinions have changed.
For example, I think that the ultimate limits in an E36 M3 chassis are pretty high, but to go faster, it requires a bunch of modifications that increase NVH to pretty high levels and/or eat tires like candy. Lots of front camber, solid bushings, stuff like that. And, oftentimes the aftermarket just doesn't have OE quality, and stuff just fails, from leaky shocks to urethane bushings with high infant mortality rates. Or, you start messing with bumpsteer up front, and start getting some odd mid-corner behavior. . .stuff like that.
So, my current thought is to buy a car that, box stock, has the performance you are looking for. The Evo seems to have it, in spades.
Beyond that, some specific questions:
How does the car respond to R comps? Some cars do quite well, others have handling flaws that are illuminated with sticky tires. most Pcars handle Rcomps well, but my last car, an S2000 actually felt more neutral on street tires. My M3 is pretty good, with some alignment/spring changes.
Heat soak? It gets damn hot in TX, and was wondering how much heat soak folks get on hot track days.
Engine mods on the track? I understand that factory tuning is really *safe*. Has going after bigger hp caused problems with durability on the track? Aggressive tuning on the street is fine, but can cause you an engine on the track, particularly if you get fuel starvation, bad gas, boost leak, etc.
Stock dampers holding up well to track use with R comps?
And, more generally, in the hands of experienced drivers, have you found the Evo to be a giantkiller on the track? I'm talking advanced drivers, as, obviously, in novice/intermediate groups, it has more to do with the driver than the car.
Thanks all.
Hard to deny the performance of the Evo, and with the MR hopefully on the way, I get wood thinking about the track prowess it brings to the table. I'll probably keep the car as a street car, and add the Evo as a track *****, or car for when I'm feeling evil. I can easily soften up the M3 for reasonable daily driving.Secret Chimp, what I'm really asking, which I failed to write, is that Jedinite's post is about a year old. I'm curious, if after a year more seat time with Evo, if he (or you, or anybody with decent track time), thinks about the car.
Stated another way, one's assessment of a car changes as you get faster. If you are skilled, and start pushing things, flaws in the car will show up, and strengths revealed. Since Jedinite's post was in the early days, I was curious on how folks' opinions have changed.
For example, I think that the ultimate limits in an E36 M3 chassis are pretty high, but to go faster, it requires a bunch of modifications that increase NVH to pretty high levels and/or eat tires like candy. Lots of front camber, solid bushings, stuff like that. And, oftentimes the aftermarket just doesn't have OE quality, and stuff just fails, from leaky shocks to urethane bushings with high infant mortality rates. Or, you start messing with bumpsteer up front, and start getting some odd mid-corner behavior. . .stuff like that.
So, my current thought is to buy a car that, box stock, has the performance you are looking for. The Evo seems to have it, in spades.
Beyond that, some specific questions:
How does the car respond to R comps? Some cars do quite well, others have handling flaws that are illuminated with sticky tires. most Pcars handle Rcomps well, but my last car, an S2000 actually felt more neutral on street tires. My M3 is pretty good, with some alignment/spring changes.
Heat soak? It gets damn hot in TX, and was wondering how much heat soak folks get on hot track days.
Engine mods on the track? I understand that factory tuning is really *safe*. Has going after bigger hp caused problems with durability on the track? Aggressive tuning on the street is fine, but can cause you an engine on the track, particularly if you get fuel starvation, bad gas, boost leak, etc.
Stock dampers holding up well to track use with R comps?
And, more generally, in the hands of experienced drivers, have you found the Evo to be a giantkiller on the track? I'm talking advanced drivers, as, obviously, in novice/intermediate groups, it has more to do with the driver than the car.
Thanks all.
Apr 5, 2004, 03:26 PM
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Man your talk about track racing makes me remind me of my lost opportunities to take it out at MSR 
One thing for sure frayed, you WILL NOT be disappointed with the Evo.
One thing for sure frayed, you WILL NOT be disappointed with the Evo.
Apr 5, 2004, 04:23 PM
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While I haven't tracked an M3, I have passed a fully race-prepped and caged M3 (E36 generation) on track with my Evo running JIC coilovers, 3" Turbo back and an XEDE on the stock Advans. The driver was pretty good, too - probably better than me. Compared to another full race E36 M3 that had $40K in vested in upgrades, I was about 1 set of R compounds off of his lap times.
While stock, I was also able to catch and pass very slightly modded Z06. The Z06 driver needed some work, though.
The Evo is amazing on a track. I'll eat the possible problems and enjoy the car. The price to performance ratio is fantastic. This year I'll be back at the track with some new cams, RRE tuned coilovers and a set of R compounds. I can't wait.
While stock, I was also able to catch and pass very slightly modded Z06. The Z06 driver needed some work, though.
The Evo is amazing on a track. I'll eat the possible problems and enjoy the car. The price to performance ratio is fantastic. This year I'll be back at the track with some new cams, RRE tuned coilovers and a set of R compounds. I can't wait.
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Apr 5, 2004, 04:50 PM
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The E36 M3 is a fairly fast track car but doesn't seem to have amazingly high cornering limits. I have an in-car video where an E36 M3 passes me at the end of a straight and then I have to back off in the next 3 corners to stop running in to it. It only got away when we got to a decent size straight.
This is with me in a 1985 E30 323i, not exactly a fast car or known for it's high cornering limits. Sure I had Koni's and King springs, but that is not a big upgrade and he probably had at least new shock absorbers anyway. Also we both had the same tires.
So I would hope that any Lancer Evolution would be substantially quicker than an E36 M3.
Aston
EDIT: I am not saying M3's are bad, I would still like to own one, I am just sharing an experience I had.
This is with me in a 1985 E30 323i, not exactly a fast car or known for it's high cornering limits. Sure I had Koni's and King springs, but that is not a big upgrade and he probably had at least new shock absorbers anyway. Also we both had the same tires.
So I would hope that any Lancer Evolution would be substantially quicker than an E36 M3.
Aston
EDIT: I am not saying M3's are bad, I would still like to own one, I am just sharing an experience I had.
Last edited by astondg; Apr 5, 2004 at 06:08 PM.
Apr 5, 2004, 05:43 PM
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Originally posted by frayed
Just curious, what do you consider to be the possible problems with the car?
Just curious, what do you consider to be the possible problems with the car?
But since you're not drag racing, it will be fine.
People here track their cars hard and still retain the stock clutch.
Apr 5, 2004, 07:15 PM
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The possible problems that I figure will eventually need upgrading are the clutch and front diff. The other issue is my warranty. I had a regional VP call me up and explain that my car had been given a "warrany flag" in the Mitsubishi USA database and ANY warranty issue would require his personal aproval. I don't want to get into more detail on a public forum, but that pretty much means my warranty is toast and my resale value is trashed if someone asks about it.
The clutch thing has been beat to death and I don't want to open that mess again - my personal experience is that my clutch does not hook up as well as that of a couple of other Evos I have driven, it never did. That said I have about 21K on the stock clutch without any other problems.
The front diff is another area that I expect will need attention after I reach it's limits with my mods. On my car this isn't a Mitsubishi problem; it is me exceeding the design envelope of the car. My toys, my responsibility.
The clutch thing has been beat to death and I don't want to open that mess again - my personal experience is that my clutch does not hook up as well as that of a couple of other Evos I have driven, it never did. That said I have about 21K on the stock clutch without any other problems.
The front diff is another area that I expect will need attention after I reach it's limits with my mods. On my car this isn't a Mitsubishi problem; it is me exceeding the design envelope of the car. My toys, my responsibility.
Apr 5, 2004, 07:32 PM
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Thanks erioshi, much appreciated.
I get it. Anyway, Mitsu is not the only car company spending their time and money hassling the enthusiasts buying their products rather than just quietly honoring their promises. I recall the poor B5 Audi S4 guys got their asses handed to them for modding their cars.
Sad.
I get it. Anyway, Mitsu is not the only car company spending their time and money hassling the enthusiasts buying their products rather than just quietly honoring their promises. I recall the poor B5 Audi S4 guys got their asses handed to them for modding their cars.
Sad.
Apr 6, 2004, 09:30 AM
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Originally posted by frayed
hey Pepe, nothing wrong with the M3, just looking to add to the stable. Hard to deny the performance of the Evo, and with the MR hopefully on the way, I get wood thinking about the track prowess it brings to the table. I'll probably keep the car as a street car, and add the Evo as a track *****, or car for when I'm feeling evil. I can easily soften up the M3 for reasonable daily driving.
Secret Chimp, what I'm really asking, which I failed to write, is that Jedinite's post is about a year old. I'm curious, if after a year more seat time with Evo, if he (or you, or anybody with decent track time), thinks about the car.
Stated another way, one's assessment of a car changes as you get faster. If you are skilled, and start pushing things, flaws in the car will show up, and strengths revealed. Since Jedinite's post was in the early days, I was curious on how folks' opinions have changed.
For example, I think that the ultimate limits in an E36 M3 chassis are pretty high, but to go faster, it requires a bunch of modifications that increase NVH to pretty high levels and/or eat tires like candy. Lots of front camber, solid bushings, stuff like that. And, oftentimes the aftermarket just doesn't have OE quality, and stuff just fails, from leaky shocks to urethane bushings with high infant mortality rates. Or, you start messing with bumpsteer up front, and start getting some odd mid-corner behavior. . .stuff like that.
So, my current thought is to buy a car that, box stock, has the performance you are looking for. The Evo seems to have it, in spades.
Beyond that, some specific questions:
How does the car respond to R comps? Some cars do quite well, others have handling flaws that are illuminated with sticky tires. most Pcars handle Rcomps well, but my last car, an S2000 actually felt more neutral on street tires. My M3 is pretty good, with some alignment/spring changes.
Heat soak? It gets damn hot in TX, and was wondering how much heat soak folks get on hot track days.
Engine mods on the track? I understand that factory tuning is really *safe*. Has going after bigger hp caused problems with durability on the track? Aggressive tuning on the street is fine, but can cause you an engine on the track, particularly if you get fuel starvation, bad gas, boost leak, etc.
Stock dampers holding up well to track use with R comps?
And, more generally, in the hands of experienced drivers, have you found the Evo to be a giantkiller on the track? I'm talking advanced drivers, as, obviously, in novice/intermediate groups, it has more to do with the driver than the car.
Thanks all.
hey Pepe, nothing wrong with the M3, just looking to add to the stable.
Hard to deny the performance of the Evo, and with the MR hopefully on the way, I get wood thinking about the track prowess it brings to the table. I'll probably keep the car as a street car, and add the Evo as a track *****, or car for when I'm feeling evil. I can easily soften up the M3 for reasonable daily driving.Secret Chimp, what I'm really asking, which I failed to write, is that Jedinite's post is about a year old. I'm curious, if after a year more seat time with Evo, if he (or you, or anybody with decent track time), thinks about the car.
Stated another way, one's assessment of a car changes as you get faster. If you are skilled, and start pushing things, flaws in the car will show up, and strengths revealed. Since Jedinite's post was in the early days, I was curious on how folks' opinions have changed.
For example, I think that the ultimate limits in an E36 M3 chassis are pretty high, but to go faster, it requires a bunch of modifications that increase NVH to pretty high levels and/or eat tires like candy. Lots of front camber, solid bushings, stuff like that. And, oftentimes the aftermarket just doesn't have OE quality, and stuff just fails, from leaky shocks to urethane bushings with high infant mortality rates. Or, you start messing with bumpsteer up front, and start getting some odd mid-corner behavior. . .stuff like that.
So, my current thought is to buy a car that, box stock, has the performance you are looking for. The Evo seems to have it, in spades.
Beyond that, some specific questions:
How does the car respond to R comps? Some cars do quite well, others have handling flaws that are illuminated with sticky tires. most Pcars handle Rcomps well, but my last car, an S2000 actually felt more neutral on street tires. My M3 is pretty good, with some alignment/spring changes.
Heat soak? It gets damn hot in TX, and was wondering how much heat soak folks get on hot track days.
Engine mods on the track? I understand that factory tuning is really *safe*. Has going after bigger hp caused problems with durability on the track? Aggressive tuning on the street is fine, but can cause you an engine on the track, particularly if you get fuel starvation, bad gas, boost leak, etc.
Stock dampers holding up well to track use with R comps?
And, more generally, in the hands of experienced drivers, have you found the Evo to be a giantkiller on the track? I'm talking advanced drivers, as, obviously, in novice/intermediate groups, it has more to do with the driver than the car.
Thanks all.
This is the second time I went out with my EVO. I took it out while it was stock and I was running in the 2:09-2:10 range last Aug or Sep. Having done two events with the EVO I gotta say the EVO is really one hella of fun car to drive. It has been a while sice I last went to the track after I sold my S2000 back in 2001. I'm still a bit of rusty and screw up turn 1&2 combination and had to chicken out and lift on turn 7. To give you an example my friend in the S2000 was catching up with me during the 1&2 combo after I passed him at the end of straight. And he was laughing at me when he saw me slowing down before going in turn 7.... 
But honestly, I really felt that with an experienced/better driver the EVO will most def put down some fast time in bone stock form with good pads and R compounds only.
To answer some of questions:
I notice a tad of slower steering response with the Kumho Victoracer. It could have been I'm running one size bigger tire as the Victoracer don't come in stock size for my EVO. (235/45/17 stcok vs 245/45/17 Victoracer)
Regarding the heat soak. I had my IC spray on in "auto" everytime I go out on the track but the thing rarely spray anything. The water tank for IC barely moves even when I was at TWS last Aug/Sep. I'll keep an eye on it next time.
Can't really tell you about the mods as I'm still pretty mild right now with XEDE (now replace with Utec) and turboback exhaust only. But I rode with SILVER SURFER at MSC last month with his 272 cams equiped EVO and I was very impress by the power.
The stock shocks/spring works farily well for me right now. I think it will take a while for me to "out-drive" the stock suspension.
I don't consider myself as experienced driver as there are way too many people faster than me out there but I really think the EVO "IS" a giantkiller with an experienced/fast guy behind it's steering wheel.
BTW, I will be at TWS with MSC again next month. Are you going to be there? If you are, you are welcome to check my car out.
Apr 6, 2004, 10:16 AM
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Originally posted by frayed
Thanks erioshi, much appreciated.
I get it. Anyway, Mitsu is not the only car company spending their time and money hassling the enthusiasts buying their products rather than just quietly honoring their promises. I recall the poor B5 Audi S4 guys got their asses handed to them for modding their cars.
Sad.
Thanks erioshi, much appreciated.
I get it. Anyway, Mitsu is not the only car company spending their time and money hassling the enthusiasts buying their products rather than just quietly honoring their promises. I recall the poor B5 Audi S4 guys got their asses handed to them for modding their cars.
Sad.
Brent
Apr 6, 2004, 10:18 AM
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On the topic of track BMW's and the EVO..
It's been said that the E30 M3 can hang with the E36 M3's at the track due to its weight and suspension design..
I wonder if it can hang with the EVO through the twisties given this fact?
My guess is the EVO will lose the E30 M3 on the straights but the question is will the E30 catch up when the curves come??
Just wondering these points if anyone knows or has had experiencing racing an E30 M3..and can comment!?
It's been said that the E30 M3 can hang with the E36 M3's at the track due to its weight and suspension design..
I wonder if it can hang with the EVO through the twisties given this fact?
My guess is the EVO will lose the E30 M3 on the straights but the question is will the E30 catch up when the curves come??
Just wondering these points if anyone knows or has had experiencing racing an E30 M3..and can comment!?