SilverCOEvo

iTrader: (3)

Down the road I am planning on doing some suspension upgrades, but as the car handles pretty well it's not planned for the initial set of upgrades. I just wanted to know if any of you have done spring upgrades with improved performance (as I'm not looking to go crazy here.) I'd love numbers if possible (or at least some reference to them if you auto-x or do full track events.) I'm definitely not opposed to the extra cash on coilovers, but for a car that hits the track 2-3 times a year, I'm looking for something that's reasonably priced and helps performance (besides that gap at the front fender.)

Before the "do a search" posts come up, I've only seen (and maybe I've missed some) posts saying that springs alone won't help handling, but I have a hard time thinking they don't help a bit (proper springs, not the biggest drop as that's not what I want.) I'd think that a stiffer car with a slightly lower center of gravity would help some, but I've seen very little solid evidence either way. Thanks in advance, and if I did miss a link doing searches, please post it while you rag me for not searching well enough.

mayhem

iTrader: (9)

Check the motorsports section. Less bling.

SilverCOEvo

iTrader: (3)

That's an idea I really didn't think of...thanks. And now that you mention it, it seems pretty obvious...

Kayaalp

iTrader: (1)

Actually, the front suspension is too stiff as it is. Making it stiffer will only make it understeer even more. The "real" track guys (as opposed to the hoards of JDM-obsessed posers on this board) stick with relatively soft spring rates and have excellent results.

The guys who don't have a clue throw on some random coilover (the more expensive and the more JDM the better). They choose springs with very high rates, then slam the car as low as possible and dial everything up to "full stiff." Sometimes they even put on massive sway-bars front and rear. The cars "feel" fast (very darty at low speeds) but are actually slower than stock since they understeer like crazy and can't handle mid-corner bumps.

There are quite a few track guys on this board running stock suspensions with either camber plates or maybe a slightly large rear swaybar. This seems to work very well in the real world. Sure, there's more body roll than you might like, but I actually find a little roll helps the car take a set in fast corners and rotate a little easier on the throttle.

Emre

nils

iTrader: (56)

Emre,
so if I get a set of Motons instead of Zeals does that exclude me from the group you mentioned....?

...ha ha

just f'n with you mang... =)

n

Evo23IG

iTrader: (36)

If you want to do it right, I would call RRE and consult with them. If you want results I would go with there JIC set-up. They will set-up just the way you want it. I seen there work and its a beast on the track.

plokivos

iTrader: (3)

Here are some tips.

If you do road race, your primary objective is to control the corners as much as you can.

there are driving techniques that allows you to 'take care of the oversteer, so you don't have to worry about that.

What you want is understeer on the road race. it's always better to have understeer with a face car, because you could correct that with ease on AWD car, also, it's a lot safer with less work.

on coilovers, it's all about balancing out your car. You have to weight balance each corner of your car so the car is evenly weighted front and back.

This gets a bit tricky, because evo's are designed to front load on turns, so you have to figure out how much weigh you're willing to set up front and rear.

That's what coilover does among lowering the center of gravity.

You want the stiffer springs, but what you want is progressive rate springs. As it dampens or recoils, it gets stiffer, that's what you want.

this helps with your sway along with thicker sway bars and tie bars. You don't want flex on the road course or any track.

so your car stays more even on the corners, which give you more control of the corner and operation of the vehicle.

Camber plates are ideal because you need a negative camber on your tires.

Toe at 0, front at 2 degrees and rear at 1 degree or bit more. This is fairely standard on all cars running tracks.

However, with a camber plate, you could adjust your camber in order for it to fit your driving style or the need for the course.

Also, with that said, positive offset wheels help on traction. Wider is always better. it's wider the car and where the rims is to the car, not how wide the tires are.

Larger tires do help on traction, but also it compromises on bit of handling. Too narrow of a tire just wont give you enough traction, so just have to adjust your car to your needs and the track.

hope that helped.

The driving tech to correct oversteering on a awd is a simple tap at the brakes before corner, or while turning. You do this while you have your right foot on the accelerator and with your left foot.

also, you should feel it when you need to let the throttle out. throttle out will help you correct understeering as well as keep your car oversteer in the corners.

that and apex theory, and you'll be all set.

SilverCOEvo

iTrader: (3)

Thanks for all the input, and all is appreciated. I have put in a stiffer rear sway bar (and it's only set to the mid setting so far, not full stiff.) I'd like to relieve a bit of the body roll, but not at the cost of overall handling. This appears to be a fun project that will take a while to get to my liking, especially since I'm using it as a daily driver as well. Thanks again for the info so far. If you have any specific questions about what I like, please ask away or PM me as I have some references from previous racing experience.

mayhem

iTrader: (9)

Look for the "swaybar" thread. It's either in the Motor Sports section or the driving technique section. It's got some good advice, from several schools of thought, about the matter of understeer/oversteer and the solutions.

Kayaalp

iTrader: (1)

Most experienced track junkies and road racers prefer a car that doesn't understeer at all. You want a neutral car so you get the maximum cornering possible (plus, easy throttle adjustibility). If anything, you'd like a tiny bit of oversteer to help rotate the car and so you can drift through the corner...and I mean "drift" in the motorsports sense (not the "dorifto" sense). As they say in NASCAR, "loose is fast."


It's actually quite the opposite. Progressive rate springs are designed to allow the car to roll before stiffening up. These are fine on the street, but are a real PITA on the track. What experienced track guys want are linear rate springs.


Exactlty. And that's why you want to avoid progressive springs.


The really fast guys with heavy AWD cars (like ours) generally dial in some front toe-out to help the car turn in. And -2.0 degrees of negative camber isn't nearly enough...even on stock tires. If you check your tire temps with the stock Advans, you will find the front shoulders overheating with -2.0 degrees. With R-compounds, you need even more negative. Something like -3.0 degrees would be a good starting point.


Within reason. The stock tires are already too wide in the rear, which contributes to understeer. Running staggered tires (wider up front) would help tremendously, but it would screw up our t-case. And remember that more offset will put a lot more strain on your wheelbearings...so be careful.


I think you mean "understeering!" Trail braking and LFB are techniques to make the car oversteer.


Not sure what you mean here. I'm assuming you're talking about lifting. If you enter the corner properly, you should not have to lift mid-corner. This upsets the balance of the car and can be very dangerous. You can only get away with it if you are very far from the limits of adhesion. If you're on the limit, then you can't do this.

Emre

trinydex

iTrader: (12)

why would they say that when they dial in as much understeer as possible?
in any case i say oversteer is more safe for the experienced driver.... you can always turn more... uncontrollable understeer will always send you off a cliff.
i agree with the camber thing... someone just posted a rave thread about how they love their 3* i think... or was it more? can't remember. and just to specify... that's front toe out, rear is suppose to be close to 0 as possible for a neutral/slight oversteer setup yeah?

agree again... this can be particularly bad in our cars the front heaviness means the back is noticeably lighter, upsetting with "emergency" braking mid turn can actually send your tail in the air, happened to me once when some stupid guy wanted to share lanes while he was going through a turn, it was a downhiller had to put on the stoppers and the tail started lookin' at the outside of the turn, bad... corrected immediately but NOT the fast way to do ANYTHING.

Kayaalp

iTrader: (1)

They do not! Look, I've been doing high-performance driving schools for years and I've been instructing for years. Most of my friends are experienced road and rally racers...many are on factory teams (Fiat/Abarth, Ford, Renault, etc.). I've NEVER seen any racers "dial in as much understeer as possible." I don't know where you're getting your information from, because that's absolutely the opposite of what we want on the track.

You want a car that's basically neutral and, if anything, tends towards very slight oversteer at track out. A little bit of understeer at turn-in is almost unavoidable and isn't a huge concern. Some guys might actually dial in a tiny bit of understeer just to neutralize the car, especially in heavy rain. But more experienced guys don't even do that.

[BTW, I'm talking about circuit and rally racing here...some NASCAR guys do dial a bit of understeer on high-speed tracks, but that's very different (for a variety of reasons that I really don't want to get into right now because it takes too long to explain).]


I get the feeling that you're not using the terms properly and I think that's why we're not on the same page. "Oversteer" is when the back of the car is sliding (tail swinging) and "understeer" is when the front of the car is sliding (nose pushing wide).

The reason experienced track driver like mild oversteer is NOT because it's "safer" (in fact, it can be dangerous). They prefer it because it's faster. There's really no such thing as "uncontrolable understeer" for an experienced track driver. The only time that happens is if you go into a corner WAY too hot and have no hope of making the corner. In that situation, most guys would just straighten out the wheel and get on the brakes hard. That way you go off in a straight line with reasonable control of where your car ends up.


Again, I don't think you're using the term "oversteer" correctly. Setting the rear toe to zero or toe-in will keep the back very stable...contributing to understeer (not oversteer). If you want some oversteer, you can dial in a very tiny bit of toe-out to loosen the rear. A lot of rally guys do this: that way you can get the back REALLY loose, especially when trailbraking into a tight corner.

Emre

trinydex

iTrader: (12)

i think you're misunderstanding me... but i'll explain myself... nascar dials in understeer cuz they got two turns... two turns that they take at more than 150... i was told... that they dial in slight understeer because if they dial in oversteer it's too easy to lose the back end. at such speeds easier to control and safer in a lets not wreck the car and finish the race kind of way to have understeer. you ever seen a nascar drift through "turn 1" never... you see them take it and when they get pushed around in turn... they don't ALWAYS automatically spin out because the understeer saves them, more stable.

on the converse... rally cars dial in more oversteer, maybe even extreme oversteer... why? because oversteer is easier to control.... when things get hairy they can always turn more, if they got an *** load of understeer what happens? they chunk through the dirt right into the outside of the turn puttin' them off a cliff.

about the toe... is said neutral/light oversteer. i did not say get the back end loose, i'd rather get the back end loose with a sway bar and rear suspension stiffening and not toe adjustment, especially since tire wear get messed up when you have too much or any toe. the front wheels are inevitable... you gotta have some toe... but not the rear. and i was talkin 'about road racing setup not rally cuz for rally tire wear don't really matter as much, everything is so uneven and you have any number of road hazards that will make things fun for your tires.

of course driving styles vary and help in both these two opposite end types of racing. but i'm just sayin'... that's what i heard. you're the one with all the pro racing friends... and there's more than one way to slice this cake.

oh and i don't disagree that loose is faster... it is... just heard that nascar uses understeer to their advantage. this is just cuz nascar isn't your typical roadracing... i wouldn't even call it road racing it's circle track, so in that respect, again i agree with you... that's not what you want in a road racing setup. i think you thot i was tryinna say you're wrong... i'm not... just pokin' fun at nascar cuz i don't really like circle track... i respect they reach 200mph but it's not my bag of tricks.

BMo

awesome exchange, great info. Took my evo to the track Friday making this all the more pertinent (pertinant?). You're contributions are very appreciated Emre, triny, everyone.

bracer

iTrader: (3)

Since it sounds like you want to stay relatively stock, aka not a lot of money-> here is what I would suggest.

Front camber can be set to about 2.1 degrees negative with the stock camber bolts. The more the better. 3+ degrees would be even better, but 2 is all you'll get without camber plates.

Set the toe to zero front and rear, or if you want something a little safer (more stable) set the rear to 1/8 toe in. Rear camber should be about 1 degree.

Get a 25mm swaybar for the rear. This will make the car understeer quite a bit less, but will still have just a bit, which will be safer for a beginning to intermediate driver. You can still be very fast with this setup.

The next step would be coilovers. Something like Ohlins R&T, etc... There are a lot of them.

Springs are a mixed bag. If you go this route go with something with a slightly higher ratio of spring in the rear than the stock setup. No guarantee's though that they will be faster than stock. The stocks are progressive and work quite well for a stock setup.