Let's hear about your RS Brakes...
Jun 30, 2005, 08:48 AM
#1
Let's hear about your RS Brakes...
Hello! I am interested in purchasing an MR or RS very soon. I was leaning towards the MR because of the luxuries and six-speed. I really liked the RS more because of its exceptional speed, but no ABS makes me reeeaal nervous. That's why the RS has been out of the picture for awhile.
I'm afraid that one day if I have to slam on my brakes I will go skidding into the car in front of me like a bicycle. Also, I live in Chicago so snow must be taken into consideration...
RS owners, let me know how the brakes have treated you. Any skidding when slamming on them? How is it in the snow? Let me know...Thanks!
I'm afraid that one day if I have to slam on my brakes I will go skidding into the car in front of me like a bicycle. Also, I live in Chicago so snow must be taken into consideration...
RS owners, let me know how the brakes have treated you. Any skidding when slamming on them? How is it in the snow? Let me know...Thanks!
Jun 30, 2005, 06:38 PM
#2
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If you plan on daily driving the car, then I don't think one without ABS would be a good choice. Too many things can happen, which you can't account for. Just my opinion, I would go for the GSR, and pocket the difference.
Jun 30, 2005, 10:30 PM
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i've driven many cars in many conditions and have never found ABS to be better for me personally and would never pay extra for a vehicle that had it. That is just me, many people swear by it. i think that if you are in situations that find you using ABS all the time on the street maybe you should get it (in that case however, you probably shouldn't be driving at all). Short answer; i never have felt the need for ABS and don't EVER regret that i didn't get it. Buy the RS and spend the oodles you save on autocross so you can feel more comfortable with your braking control in a controlled environment.
Jul 1, 2005, 12:11 AM
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im with crimsonshadow. you ask for some methods...well here a couple links and some other info you might find usefull.
evoled: http://www.safespeed.org.uk/braking.html http://www.teamscr.com/grmbrakes.html
To understand Threshold braking you need to understand how a car brakes, as I'm sure you know when you press on the brake pedal this forces the brake pads on the discs (or shoes onto the drums) this then slows the rotation of the wheels.
As the wheels slow they are moving at a different rate to the car, this is known as the slip percentage. A cars tyres can only accept a certain slip percentage before they lose grip and you lose traction. It is this slip rate that princiapaly determines how quickly a car slows down.
Now the braking system of a car is capable of applying braking force at a very high level, and if you just stamp on the brake pedal, the braking force will force the tyre to exceed its slip percentage and the wheel(s) will lock.
Threshold braking is maintaining the braking force at a level that ensure you are at the maximum deceleration offered by the tyre, without exceeding its slip percentage.
Gradually releasing braking force as you start to enter a turn is know as trail braking and allows you to overlap the braking and throttle phase of a turn.
I wanted to add a point about ABS and misconceptions. It's pretty well settled that ABS is designed to ALLOW steering while braking hard. A locked wheel has no directional control.
The other big misconception about ABS which I didn't see here is that it maximizes stopping power, which isn't true. It maximizes control, but if the surface has no grip, like sand or gravel, ABS can increase your stopping distance by an amazing amount. It will not increase your grip. You'll be perfectly in control as you drive downhill through the stop sign onto the highway across traffic. The surface has so little grip that the brakes spend as much time off as on, and released brakes do not slow a car down. In sand or gravel, a locked wheel can dig into the surface and you'll stop faster than an ABS stop with the brakes pumped off as much as on, but with no steering control.
Another thing that happens with ABS is pedal feedback, which startles many people into letting off the pedal!!!!!! Just the thing to do in a panic stop. . . . If you have an ABS-equipped car, but have never braked hard enough to use ABS, I suggest you find a dirt road or wet parking lot and go through a couple of hard stops to see what it feels like, rather than be surprised in an emergency.
A trained driver (not someone who's been taught how to steer, but someone who truly understands the vehicle's dynamic behavior, i.e. Hans Stuck compared to your average soccer mom) can threshold brake with ABS off and beat anybody's ABS stops every time, whether it be wet, dry, gravel, tarmac, clean, or sandy. That training and experience is expensive, and not done for the masses, so give them ABS every time.
evoled: http://www.safespeed.org.uk/braking.html http://www.teamscr.com/grmbrakes.html
To understand Threshold braking you need to understand how a car brakes, as I'm sure you know when you press on the brake pedal this forces the brake pads on the discs (or shoes onto the drums) this then slows the rotation of the wheels.
As the wheels slow they are moving at a different rate to the car, this is known as the slip percentage. A cars tyres can only accept a certain slip percentage before they lose grip and you lose traction. It is this slip rate that princiapaly determines how quickly a car slows down.
Now the braking system of a car is capable of applying braking force at a very high level, and if you just stamp on the brake pedal, the braking force will force the tyre to exceed its slip percentage and the wheel(s) will lock.
Threshold braking is maintaining the braking force at a level that ensure you are at the maximum deceleration offered by the tyre, without exceeding its slip percentage.
Gradually releasing braking force as you start to enter a turn is know as trail braking and allows you to overlap the braking and throttle phase of a turn.
I wanted to add a point about ABS and misconceptions. It's pretty well settled that ABS is designed to ALLOW steering while braking hard. A locked wheel has no directional control.
The other big misconception about ABS which I didn't see here is that it maximizes stopping power, which isn't true. It maximizes control, but if the surface has no grip, like sand or gravel, ABS can increase your stopping distance by an amazing amount. It will not increase your grip. You'll be perfectly in control as you drive downhill through the stop sign onto the highway across traffic. The surface has so little grip that the brakes spend as much time off as on, and released brakes do not slow a car down. In sand or gravel, a locked wheel can dig into the surface and you'll stop faster than an ABS stop with the brakes pumped off as much as on, but with no steering control.
Another thing that happens with ABS is pedal feedback, which startles many people into letting off the pedal!!!!!! Just the thing to do in a panic stop. . . . If you have an ABS-equipped car, but have never braked hard enough to use ABS, I suggest you find a dirt road or wet parking lot and go through a couple of hard stops to see what it feels like, rather than be surprised in an emergency.
A trained driver (not someone who's been taught how to steer, but someone who truly understands the vehicle's dynamic behavior, i.e. Hans Stuck compared to your average soccer mom) can threshold brake with ABS off and beat anybody's ABS stops every time, whether it be wet, dry, gravel, tarmac, clean, or sandy. That training and experience is expensive, and not done for the masses, so give them ABS every time.
Jul 1, 2005, 06:14 AM
#6
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I am leaning towards trading in my 03 for an RS, but I have been debating the ABS thing as well. I have lots of seat time in non-ABS cars and have rarely had any problems from not having it. Having said that though, ABS has saved my bacon once or twice and it is nice to have at a wet autocross or when it is snowy or icy.
Another thing to consider is EBD, which is integral to our ABS. I'm no expert on it, but if I understand things correctly, it should provide better performance than threshold braking in a non ABS/EBD car. It's probably only good for a few feet, but that might be enough to be important sometime...
JW
Another thing to consider is EBD, which is integral to our ABS. I'm no expert on it, but if I understand things correctly, it should provide better performance than threshold braking in a non ABS/EBD car. It's probably only good for a few feet, but that might be enough to be important sometime...
JW
Jul 1, 2005, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by ashumo
im with crimsonshadow. you ask for some methods...well here a couple links and some other info you might find usefull.
evoled: http://www.safespeed.org.uk/braking.html http://www.teamscr.com/grmbrakes.html
To understand Threshold braking you need to understand how a car brakes, as I'm sure you know when you press on the brake pedal this forces the brake pads on the discs (or shoes onto the drums) this then slows the rotation of the wheels.
As the wheels slow they are moving at a different rate to the car, this is known as the slip percentage. A cars tyres can only accept a certain slip percentage before they lose grip and you lose traction. It is this slip rate that princiapaly determines how quickly a car slows down.
Now the braking system of a car is capable of applying braking force at a very high level, and if you just stamp on the brake pedal, the braking force will force the tyre to exceed its slip percentage and the wheel(s) will lock.
Threshold braking is maintaining the braking force at a level that ensure you are at the maximum deceleration offered by the tyre, without exceeding its slip percentage.
Gradually releasing braking force as you start to enter a turn is know as trail braking and allows you to overlap the braking and throttle phase of a turn.
I wanted to add a point about ABS and misconceptions. It's pretty well settled that ABS is designed to ALLOW steering while braking hard. A locked wheel has no directional control.
The other big misconception about ABS which I didn't see here is that it maximizes stopping power, which isn't true. It maximizes control, but if the surface has no grip, like sand or gravel, ABS can increase your stopping distance by an amazing amount. It will not increase your grip. You'll be perfectly in control as you drive downhill through the stop sign onto the highway across traffic. The surface has so little grip that the brakes spend as much time off as on, and released brakes do not slow a car down. In sand or gravel, a locked wheel can dig into the surface and you'll stop faster than an ABS stop with the brakes pumped off as much as on, but with no steering control.
Another thing that happens with ABS is pedal feedback, which startles many people into letting off the pedal!!!!!! Just the thing to do in a panic stop. . . . If you have an ABS-equipped car, but have never braked hard enough to use ABS, I suggest you find a dirt road or wet parking lot and go through a couple of hard stops to see what it feels like, rather than be surprised in an emergency.
A trained driver (not someone who's been taught how to steer, but someone who truly understands the vehicle's dynamic behavior, i.e. Hans Stuck compared to your average soccer mom) can threshold brake with ABS off and beat anybody's ABS stops every time, whether it be wet, dry, gravel, tarmac, clean, or sandy. That training and experience is expensive, and not done for the masses, so give them ABS every time.
evoled: http://www.safespeed.org.uk/braking.html http://www.teamscr.com/grmbrakes.html
To understand Threshold braking you need to understand how a car brakes, as I'm sure you know when you press on the brake pedal this forces the brake pads on the discs (or shoes onto the drums) this then slows the rotation of the wheels.
As the wheels slow they are moving at a different rate to the car, this is known as the slip percentage. A cars tyres can only accept a certain slip percentage before they lose grip and you lose traction. It is this slip rate that princiapaly determines how quickly a car slows down.
Now the braking system of a car is capable of applying braking force at a very high level, and if you just stamp on the brake pedal, the braking force will force the tyre to exceed its slip percentage and the wheel(s) will lock.
Threshold braking is maintaining the braking force at a level that ensure you are at the maximum deceleration offered by the tyre, without exceeding its slip percentage.
Gradually releasing braking force as you start to enter a turn is know as trail braking and allows you to overlap the braking and throttle phase of a turn.
I wanted to add a point about ABS and misconceptions. It's pretty well settled that ABS is designed to ALLOW steering while braking hard. A locked wheel has no directional control.
The other big misconception about ABS which I didn't see here is that it maximizes stopping power, which isn't true. It maximizes control, but if the surface has no grip, like sand or gravel, ABS can increase your stopping distance by an amazing amount. It will not increase your grip. You'll be perfectly in control as you drive downhill through the stop sign onto the highway across traffic. The surface has so little grip that the brakes spend as much time off as on, and released brakes do not slow a car down. In sand or gravel, a locked wheel can dig into the surface and you'll stop faster than an ABS stop with the brakes pumped off as much as on, but with no steering control.
Another thing that happens with ABS is pedal feedback, which startles many people into letting off the pedal!!!!!! Just the thing to do in a panic stop. . . . If you have an ABS-equipped car, but have never braked hard enough to use ABS, I suggest you find a dirt road or wet parking lot and go through a couple of hard stops to see what it feels like, rather than be surprised in an emergency.
A trained driver (not someone who's been taught how to steer, but someone who truly understands the vehicle's dynamic behavior, i.e. Hans Stuck compared to your average soccer mom) can threshold brake with ABS off and beat anybody's ABS stops every time, whether it be wet, dry, gravel, tarmac, clean, or sandy. That training and experience is expensive, and not done for the masses, so give them ABS every time.
Much of what you say is true and much is only true of ABS systems of the early nineties not those of today. A modern ABS system has abilites that no human can match. Today's systems employ multichannels of information to allow the ABS to monitor and control each wheel independently of the others. Today an ABS system can keep each wheel at incipient lock and thereby minimize braking distances on almost any surface while allowing the most important thing to happen-the wheel to keep turning. Only a wheel that is turning can be steered, a sliding wheel has lost its traction and hence the driver no longer has control over that wheel.
Your comments about low friction surfaces does not apply to all low friction surfaces. Only where the material being driven over is both soft enough and deep enough to allow a wedge of the material to build up in front of a locked wheel will shorter stops happen without ABS than with ABS. But what EVO driver is going to encounter such surfaces? Snow that is soft enough and deep enough to allow this is too deep for an EVO to traverse-there is not enough ground clearance. Snow that has melted and refrozen or has been plowed and refrozen is a low friction surface where ABS will allow much shorter stops and steering control than anything anyone but the most skilled driver can duplicate. Refrozen snow and ice are likely to be encountered by a driver in Chicago, deep gravel or sand is not, unless he decides to try using his EVO as a beach buggy on the shores of Lake Michigan. In that case he's on his own.
Finally, the question that was asked was NOT "how good of a driver do you think you are" but should I get ABS or not. ABS is the way to go, not having ABS doesn't make the car unsafe but ABS does improve the performance envelope in almost every driving situation.
I don't know how good of a driver you are nor do I care. And you don't know about me either, don't make assumptions.
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Jul 1, 2005, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by coffeeslug
I haven't locked mine up yet while doing some radical braking, and as you can probably imagine of a brembo setup, they work great.
Jul 2, 2005, 02:09 AM
#12
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Originally Posted by _EVOled_
Is there any way to mod and improve the stopping distance and decrease lockup/skidding besides the driver's abilities (i.e.: better brake pads, etc.)?
Tires play the biggest role in braking, with crap tires you are just going to be locking up the wheels are skidding everywhere.
Jul 2, 2005, 09:42 AM
#14
ABS system is awesome, it saved me in 2 situations when people blow the red lights in Chicago. And you know that **** is getting bad here hence the cameras at big intersections. Get the gsr!