speedomodel

iTrader: (15)

When is the 2006 evoM Shootout?

DaWorstPlaya

iTrader: (31)

Sorry Chronohunter but BM American Touge 2 is not a good comparision between different cars/tuners because if you have ever watched the BM DVDs which car wins is usually determined by who is driving the car, what his driving style is and how he feels that particular day.
In the past, different cars end up winning because of the drivers chosen to drive those cars. I've watch episodes where an EVO will trump the competition and then a few episodes later the STi will win and yet a few episodes later the RX-7 whips the competition.

nils

iTrader: (56)

and you want to compare an event with no real rules at all, where a win was not based on lap times, where you guys were up 150hp atleast on my full interior w A/C car... (name one race where HP doesnt matter..) .. ? heck, I never even saw a lap time from my car...

you are not understanding me..... It is not between you and I, it is a not a 'us vs. them' kinda thing...I never once claimed that DMS' are superior to your set up. I said that in order to make an educated guess on what performs better, selecting a proven setup makes more sense (to me). Several class wins with NASA TTU weighs more IMO than 2 'kind-of, shoulda, woulda' american touge 2 wins...

its all about the numbers in a controlled environment, you know this mang... NASA TTU is more controlled than that joke of a AM2 was.. this will/can go on forever...

this is not between you and I, it is logic against hype.

all good, still love you Paul... ok really, back to work....

n

chronohunter

iTrader: (1)

All true but that is in the finals. I referring to the initial unbiased laps done by the same driver when they are trying to figure out who goes to the finals. The lap times a valid but not the only criteria which is where all the trouble started.

Nils you can carp and moan all you like but Robi's car was there and ran with no problems and VishnuEVO8's car was there and ran and we were faster. As of this moment in time it is the only time (besides when I ran Smoggy's car) that we've been on the track together and so far it's 2-0 Vishnu.

nils

iTrader: (56)

'my daddy can beat up your daddy'...

n

Doogie Howser

iTrader: (2)

After reading all the R&D done on the Ohlins by you up in CO with your geek squad I think its a no brainer...

chronohunter

iTrader: (1)

OH YEA

geminix3

iTrader: (5)

jesus christ, you two. get over it. i know this is all in the name of good spirited debate, but seriously- you should both know better.

the fact here is that both of you guys are closely affiliated with vendors and clearly partial to your own systems. nothing wrong with that, but you look kinda silly arguing over impartiality/objectivity/subjectivity/hp or what kind of driving fast is a better test of driving fast. you both support what you know and drive, obviously.

i respect you both, as do many others around here. but this is not "informed debate", it's just bickering, and it's silly.

as far as my opinion on the original question goes, i'd say that opinions here on evoM are worth just about squat (yes, including my own), when it come to something as delicate and personal as *your* chassis setup. you're comparing two very well-regarded systems, both of which have been proven to function very well, *when set up well*. the performance of your chassis is directly proportional to the quality of your *tune*, not the brand name printed on the stickers in the box, and not the preset values and suggested damper settings included.

(nils and paul, you guys both know this, which is why your bickering over "who's shocks made which car faster" is just goofy.)

you wouldn't go out and spend ~$2500 on a fully adjustable, highly configurable ECU, and then expect it to run well with on a base map or a "mail-in" tune, right? of course not. you'd have it optimized for your particular setup and situation, and no matter which ECU you bought, you'd get results exactly proportional to the skills of the guy doing the tuning.

well, the same logic applies here.

what you should be doing, rather than trying to figure out which of the two brands is "better", is what i told some other guy awhile back. i'll snip it from there:

--

find a local competition-level alignment shop to work with... find your local autocrossers or other mosports types and find out where they have chassis work done. you will discover that there are a select few shops around you that are considered to be the tops in the field there. call them, find out what they know about your car, if they've worked on evo's already. in my experience, they probably have. try to talk to all of them for at least a few minutes to get a feel for them. find a shop that you feel comfortable with, who sounds like they know how to acheive what you want, and then:

*listen to them*.

most of these places have a chassis specialist, a guy for whom this is his career- who aligns and balances highly prepped, competitive cars to exact tolerances all day, every day. he knows more than you can ever hope to learn.

he is your new Crew Chief.

let him know what you want from your setup, and listen closely to everything he says. he'll have his own brands he knows and trusts, that's ok. he'll have his own ideas on alignment specs, that's ok. he'll have his own ideas on how to improve the car, many of which probably don't coincide exactly with what you find "everyone knows" here on evom.

--

...and let HIM be your partner in choosing hardware, spring rates, valving tweaks, etc. because his ability to work with the setup philosophy of your system, and optimize it for you, is what will determine your success.


and p.s-

i'm NOT saying there is no difference between a bargain basement ~$800 "coilover kit" and >$6000 quadruple adjustables- my feelings about cheap chassis mods have been pretty well documented around here.

what i AM saying is that between quality systems (which you seem to have a good sense of, since you're comparing two of them) in a similar price range (which generally determines features, adjustability, etc), your Crew Chief's ability to work intuitively with your setup is far more important than some theoretical advantage offered by this or that feature or customization.

just my opinion, and we all know what those are worth around here...

chrisw

iTrader: (2)

I have used both the Ohlins on my EVO and DMS 50s on my old WRX.

If you have the money to spend, buy the DMS 50s. I prefer them only because they have an independant rebound and dampening control. DMS struts are bullet proof and can handle anything that you can do without crashing the car.

If you are concerned about the best bang for the buck, get the Ohlins. Ohlins have a bit more flexibility because (IMHO) use a standard spring, where the DMS uses their own progressive spring.

Both struts are awesome. Their performance is only separated by the $$$ you pay.

nils

iTrader: (56)

hehe... you wanna know what is funny... I could see this whole thread flash before my eyes before I even posted

lol... sorry for the bickering but Paul & I are stubborn/passionate people

n

chmodlf

iTrader: (19)

From what I have heard the Vishnu Ohlins will come in at around $3400. Before someone gets their shorts in a bunch I got it from here:

https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...7&page=1&pp=15

You could get Muellerized Ohlins cheaper ($2700) w/custom valving. It does not include the front and rear mounting plates.
http://www.muellerized.com/products.html

Not comparing who is better just some prices.

My suggestion--if you can, drive someone's EVO with a setup that you are interested in rather than listening to everyone's dogma...with setups one man's passion is another's poison. Some like more or less oversteer, etc. etc. etc.

geminix3

iTrader: (5)

yeah, you can pretty much chart a threads entire course by the title of the original post, most of the time.

... and your description applies to most of the people i know who know their sh*t.

i just feel that all the noise around here concerning "which parts are better" drowns out the part that is sometimes taken for granted: that the person doing the tuning knows their sh*t, too.

seems to me that when i come across as many people as i do around here that buy thousands of dollars worth of chassis parts, have them installed at the cheapest local shop they can find, and never bother to do even a basic alignment, let alone corner balancing or any further adjustment, there must a be distinct lack of emphasis on the value of *skill* in the chassis tuning process, by the people selling suspension "upgrades" on this site.

going back to my ECU analogy, you just don't see people expecting to slap in an AEM standalone with no knowledge of tuning and get good results, but i see it all the friggin time with "coilovers", which are at least as critical to your safety and performance, at least as intricate, and in some ways more mysterious and more demanding of skill to tune properly- you can't just hook em up to a machine that tells you how the setup is working, and how it compares to the last car you hooked up.

i mostly blame the vendors- most of them give proper emphasis to the importance of tuning when recommending, say, a standalone ECU. even to the point of steering someone in another direction if they haven't got the means to have it tuned, or clearly have no idea how to deal with it. Seems like simple common sense, doesn't it?

but then these same vendors will happily pimp a bottom-dollar coilover kit (or big brake kit, or giant wheels with the cheapest crap rubber that'll fit), crowing about the "stock-like ride quality" and "massive performance improvements" you'll get by just throwing it on! the guys at costco will do the install for 50 bux yo! sweet!

how does this happen?

maybe it's because it's just so much easier to quantify a good tune from a bad one when it come to power- dyno charts, timeslips, blown engines... how do you tell a good chassis setup from a bad one? easy- you can't. you guys just spent most of this thread proving that, right? was this setup faster? no, it was the horsepower. was this setup slower? no, it was the driver.

in any case, if more people just stressed the need for expert chassis tuning, and not mail-order parts solving all your perfromance problems, maybe *that* would become "common knowledge" around here, as well.

Smogrunner

iTrader: (5)

The fact that Chronohunter asked an interested party to PM him just means Paul is willing to take the time to share his honest personal opinion without having to worry about starting a big public pissing match. Potential buyers should seek out as much info as possible, from as many sources as possible. Believe it or not, he hardly makes a penny doing this. He is more unbiased than you think.

Keep in mind that the Ohlins are a full $2000 dollars less than the DMS50s. Ohlins struts are around $2400, DMS is around $4400. The fact that the Ohlins are being compared to a much more expensive strut makes me feel good about having gone with the Ohlins. You don't see too many threads asking if BuddyClubs are better than DMS 50s...

Geminix3 makes a great point about your suspension tuner being key to this. For those of you who haven't been on the boards for long, there is long simmering debate between Chronohunter and Company on the one side and Mueller and Robi on the other side. In short, it goes something like this:

Chronohunter: Solve/address the understeer/front weight bias by creating more grip in the front. Setting up suspension without using aftermarket sway bars is desireable. Trailbraking is an absolutely basic racing technique that is even more desireable on a front weight biased car like the Evo.

Mueller/Robi: Solve the the understeer/front weight bias by making the rear of the car come around easier (make it looser). Use stiff rear sway bar to help accomplish this. Do your braking primarily while going straight, then go into turns on the throttle. Robi has stated that this approach is better than Chronohunters because trailbraking on the Evo overheats the outside front tires too quickly causing the car plow.

Go here for LONG story: https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...7&page=1&pp=20 (Sorry Paul, Robi, and John)

I respect Robi and Dieter's accomplishments. I also admire John Mueller for his experience and accomplishments. However, I picked the Gerrard (Chronohunter) approach and have put my trust in his expertise. Also, I know one of the top autocrossers in the country (Mark Daddio) drives a Ohlins equiped car and has worked with Paul on the Ohlins tuning.

Good luck.

geminix3

iTrader: (5)

yup- good points all, and i remember that debate- very good stuff for sorting out the philosophies behind the systems.

also, in my opinion, all the more reason to identify your local chassis gurus and discuss the issues with them *before* making a decision, perhaps choosing not just the components but also the shop based on their enthusiasm for one approach or the other.


as far as the differences in price, you're really just demonstrating that, among quality systems, the difference in price is adjustability- i don't think you're going to find a good DA setup like the DMS for under $4000, whereas $3000 is pricey for an SA system. could either one be tuned to outperform 99.9% of the evo owners on this site? damn right it could- *in the right hands*.

edit- i just thought of a perfect illustration of this- your comment about the buddy clubs is perfect- have mueller set up up his buddy club-based system (incl. braces/sways, whatever - full system) on any car here, and i would put any amount of money on that car turning faster laps than the same car with a set of $12000 quadruple-adjustable Motons, with the system spec'd and setup by 99% percent of the others around here who would claim to be able to, and take your money to do so.

nobody would claim that the hardware is in the same league. but that's a different question.

performance comes down to the installation, setup and final tune on each car. all the different systems can do, even the well thought out, well matched ones like these, is provide good quality hardware, and a solid performance baseline along a given philosophy.

as far as comparing those philosophies, i dream of the day they can match up properly- in a nice, level racing series like Speed World Challenge or something- where the power can be equalized pretty well, and the chassis is not as restricted as in SCCA T1/T2...

...till then, this is a bit of a sausagefest. but i can dream, right?

EVOlutionary

iTrader: (38)

And let's not forget the winner of ESP class at this year's Solo2 Nationals - Andy Lieber and his Showcase Mitsubishi EVO. They also are running Ohlins.

I will point out a couple things I don't like about the Ohlins, at least the ones I have.

1) Only rebound dampning adjustable (but it also changes the compression a little too)

2) Do not have the exterior ride height adjustment where the shock body can be raised or lowered in the lower mount. (i.e. when you lower the ride height you are decreasing the available compression travel.

But they work well for me and I don't have enought $$ or knowledge to try to start from scratch with another brand.

EVOlutionary