View Poll Results: Which Suspension Setup?...DMS 50 - Ohlins RT - ??????
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Ohlins or DMS 50
Apr 12, 2006, 06:47 AM
#121
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I like posts like this, info that works. Trouble with custom valving, how do you determine what the customer wants? Apparently your customers in the US and our customers worldwide do not want the same thing.
Every driver whether it will be Villeneuve, McCrae, or Joe Blow will have a different idea of what they like. You can not tell people what they need. Best thing is to offer the info on a non-biased place like we are now and let them decide. The 40mm have a huge window of adjustment as you can see from the chart I posted, more than the R/T (I believe about 10-15% larger range). Both shocks are targeting the same end user though. Daily driven cars with some weekend fun
The 50mm 2-way are for race cars that are trailered to events. That is how we draw the line. The competitors to the 50mm 2-way systems are ALL in the 6000$US and up price range (MOTON, JRZ, OHLINS, PENSKE) The 50mm 3,4 and 5 way systems with modular resevoirs really only compete against some OHLINS models, and the SACHS rotary dampners (you are over 15$k for a set of shocks by this point) and a high end PENSKE as well for circuit racing.
Hope this helps,
-mark
Every driver whether it will be Villeneuve, McCrae, or Joe Blow will have a different idea of what they like. You can not tell people what they need. Best thing is to offer the info on a non-biased place like we are now and let them decide. The 40mm have a huge window of adjustment as you can see from the chart I posted, more than the R/T (I believe about 10-15% larger range). Both shocks are targeting the same end user though. Daily driven cars with some weekend fun
The 50mm 2-way are for race cars that are trailered to events. That is how we draw the line. The competitors to the 50mm 2-way systems are ALL in the 6000$US and up price range (MOTON, JRZ, OHLINS, PENSKE) The 50mm 3,4 and 5 way systems with modular resevoirs really only compete against some OHLINS models, and the SACHS rotary dampners (you are over 15$k for a set of shocks by this point) and a high end PENSKE as well for circuit racing.
Hope this helps,
-mark
Apr 12, 2006, 09:03 AM
#123
Originally Posted by DMS_Mark
The 50mm 2-way are for race cars that are trailered to events. That is how we draw the line. The competitors to the 50mm 2-way systems are ALL in the 6000$US and up price range (MOTON, JRZ, OHLINS, PENSKE) The 50mm 3,4 and 5 way systems with modular resevoirs really only compete against some OHLINS models, and the SACHS rotary dampners (you are over 15$k for a set of shocks by this point) and a high end PENSKE as well for circuit racing.
Hope this helps,
-mark
Moton (and just about any other) 3 and 4 ways are indeed $texas
But you're right, a lot of this stuff is overkill for 99.9% of EVO users, and many who have them can easily get in over their heads with setting up a 2 way damper.
Tact is the ability to make a point, without making an enemy!
- Drew
Apr 12, 2006, 10:29 AM
#124
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The MOTON two ways are under 6000$, you may note that I did not compare them against the 50mm either. The off the shelf 40mm would not be the same market as the moton 2way, but with some trick springs and higher rebound rates, the 40mm would be a heads up competition to these, definatly worth looking at.
A lot of the higher end shocks we are talking about are not necessarily more expensive because of the range of adjustment, but because of the developement that went in them to get the performance within a specified range.
-mark
A lot of the higher end shocks we are talking about are not necessarily more expensive because of the range of adjustment, but because of the developement that went in them to get the performance within a specified range.
-mark
Apr 12, 2006, 10:33 AM
#125
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Originally Posted by DaWorstPlaya
So Mark let me get this straight, the reason the higher end shocks are more expensive is because the offer a larger range thus allowing the driver to choose between various different spring rates both low and high, correct?
other features, such as external resevoirs, etc, are sort of peripheral to the adjustability, but become mandatory at a certain point. it's the tuning of independent parameters that really determines what class the unit is in.
*quality* is an entirely different matter, though. there are plenty of examples around here of "double adjustable coilovers" that are truly not worth the $800 they sell for.
Last edited by geminix3; May 31, 2006 at 09:30 AM.
Apr 12, 2006, 02:22 PM
#126
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Originally Posted by DMS_Mark
I like posts like this, info that works. Trouble with custom valving, how do you determine what the customer wants? Apparently your customers in the US and our customers worldwide do not want the same thing.
Every driver whether it will be Villeneuve, McCrae, or Joe Blow will have a different idea of what they like. You can not tell people what they need. Best thing is to offer the info on a non-biased place like we are now and let them decide. The 40mm have a huge window of adjustment as you can see from the chart I posted, more than the R/T (I believe about 10-15% larger range). Both shocks are targeting the same end user though. Daily driven cars with some weekend fun
Hope this helps,
-mark
Every driver whether it will be Villeneuve, McCrae, or Joe Blow will have a different idea of what they like. You can not tell people what they need. Best thing is to offer the info on a non-biased place like we are now and let them decide. The 40mm have a huge window of adjustment as you can see from the chart I posted, more than the R/T (I believe about 10-15% larger range). Both shocks are targeting the same end user though. Daily driven cars with some weekend fun
Hope this helps,
-mark
We can give them precise dampening and click settings that work for their exact set-up on that particular platform. I even give them driving advise to help them get the most of it. As soon as we sell them Vishnu suspension stuff their happiness and success becomes my problem...
You might not be able to do the things you state "are problems" in you post but it's not an issue here
. I already answered this in my previous post BTW, you business model is based our your constraints end of story, that's why you think the way you do at DMS, we are different.
Apr 13, 2006, 05:02 AM
#129
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Originally Posted by chronohunter
We have a massive range of adjustment well above what is offered stock. Our "baseline" custom valving works from 300lbs springs all the way over 900lbs (and can work above and below that, just ask!). I can indeed tell what the customer wants because I am not just an engineer but a driver as well, I set up street cars and race cars all the time. I also do and have done subjective and objective ride/handling testing for manufactures of cars and tires.
We can give them precise dampening and click settings that work for their exact set-up on that particular platform. I even give them driving advise to help them get the most of it. As soon as we sell them Vishnu suspension stuff their happiness and success becomes my problem...
You might not be able to do the things you state "are problems" in you post but it's not an issue here. I already answered this in my previous post BTW, you business model is based our your constraints end of story, that's why you think the way you do at DMS, we are different.
We can give them precise dampening and click settings that work for their exact set-up on that particular platform. I even give them driving advise to help them get the most of it. As soon as we sell them Vishnu suspension stuff their happiness and success becomes my problem...
You might not be able to do the things you state "are problems" in you post but it's not an issue here
. I already answered this in my previous post BTW, you business model is based our your constraints end of story, that's why you think the way you do at DMS, we are different.I am not going to start bashing, evidently this discussion just turned bad, I will check back in a few weeks again if anyone has more questions.
External resevoirs are not a performance gain. The majority of manufactures use these to get as close to independant adjustments as possible. Some others use them to get more fluid displacement in twin tube type shocks.
We do use canisters on our higher end models as we have not YET been able to get 3 or more indepenant adjustments on the same shaft. But yes, adding a resevoir does increase manufacturing costs, so be weary of whether you are paying for a canister because there is a canister, or paying because you actually had a 2nd or 3rd independant adjustment.
For the record, the only other company that I know were the adjustments are independant on the 3-way models is OHLINS and DMS, other manufactures from what I have tested to date do vary.
Chrono, still waiting for your dyno chart to post that demonstrates that you can effectively dampen a 600lb range of ERS springs with ONE type of valving? I guess I did not test these units, as anything over 200lb varience from the 400 baseline was over or under it's thresholds.... my blasting is finished and I hope that we have been able to offer some information to inform the end users of what makes a good shock / dampner.
Best of luck to all,
-mark
www.dmsnorthamerica.com
sales@dmsnorthamerica.com
Apr 13, 2006, 07:09 AM
#130
Originally Posted by chronohunter
We have a massive range of adjustment well above what is offered stock. Our "baseline" custom valving works from 300lbs springs all the way over 900lbs (and can work above and below that, just ask!). I can indeed tell what the customer wants because I am not just an engineer but a driver as well, I set up street cars and race cars all the time. I also do and have done subjective and objective ride/handling testing for manufactures of cars and tires.
We can give them precise dampening and click settings that work for their exact set-up on that particular platform. I even give them driving advise to help them get the most of it. As soon as we sell them Vishnu suspension stuff their happiness and success becomes my problem...
You might not be able to do the things you state "are problems" in you post but it's not an issue here. I already answered this in my previous post BTW, you business model is based our your constraints end of story, that's why you think the way you do at DMS, we are different.
We can give them precise dampening and click settings that work for their exact set-up on that particular platform. I even give them driving advise to help them get the most of it. As soon as we sell them Vishnu suspension stuff their happiness and success becomes my problem...
You might not be able to do the things you state "are problems" in you post but it's not an issue here
. I already answered this in my previous post BTW, you business model is based our your constraints end of story, that's why you think the way you do at DMS, we are different. ... and nothing to show for it ... I still respect your level of knowledge tho So when is this great race going to happen between you and Robi/DMS?
Apr 13, 2006, 10:42 AM
#131
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Originally Posted by DMS_Mark
Ok, no you are being a dick and blowing it out of you know were. I look forward to meating you Chrono with two cars and 4 drivers. Were are you located? I have a set of 40mm I will go against you anyday. "we are different" what a load of bull. OHLINS is different, not you.
I am not going to start bashing, evidently this discussion just turned bad, I will check back in a few weeks again if anyone has more questions.
External resevoirs are not a performance gain. The majority of manufactures use these to get as close to independant adjustments as possible. Some others use them to get more fluid displacement in twin tube type shocks.
We do use canisters on our higher end models as we have not YET been able to get 3 or more indepenant adjustments on the same shaft. But yes, adding a resevoir does increase manufacturing costs, so be weary of whether you are paying for a canister because there is a canister, or paying because you actually had a 2nd or 3rd independant adjustment.
For the record, the only other company that I know were the adjustments are independant on the 3-way models is OHLINS and DMS, other manufactures from what I have tested to date do vary.
Chrono, still waiting for your dyno chart to post that demonstrates that you can effectively dampen a 600lb range of ERS springs with ONE type of valving? I guess I did not test these units, as anything over 200lb varience from the 400 baseline was over or under it's thresholds.... my blasting is finished and I hope that we have been able to offer some information to inform the end users of what makes a good shock / dampner.
Best of luck to all,
-mark
www.dmsnorthamerica.com
sales@dmsnorthamerica.com
I am not going to start bashing, evidently this discussion just turned bad, I will check back in a few weeks again if anyone has more questions.
External resevoirs are not a performance gain. The majority of manufactures use these to get as close to independant adjustments as possible. Some others use them to get more fluid displacement in twin tube type shocks.
We do use canisters on our higher end models as we have not YET been able to get 3 or more indepenant adjustments on the same shaft. But yes, adding a resevoir does increase manufacturing costs, so be weary of whether you are paying for a canister because there is a canister, or paying because you actually had a 2nd or 3rd independant adjustment.
For the record, the only other company that I know were the adjustments are independant on the 3-way models is OHLINS and DMS, other manufactures from what I have tested to date do vary.
Chrono, still waiting for your dyno chart to post that demonstrates that you can effectively dampen a 600lb range of ERS springs with ONE type of valving? I guess I did not test these units, as anything over 200lb varience from the 400 baseline was over or under it's thresholds.... my blasting is finished and I hope that we have been able to offer some information to inform the end users of what makes a good shock / dampner.
Best of luck to all,
-mark
www.dmsnorthamerica.com
sales@dmsnorthamerica.com
). I am in Boulder Colorado and will happily let you drive my EVO and would love to drive the full range of DMSs on an EVO as well. I will even take you up to CSU and show you what we do OK?Let me ask you a question, how many times have you re-valved your DMS's from your testing? How many track days have you done to develop your valving?
That is what makes Vishnu different "we don't build em' we fix em'!"
You say "I'm no different but Ohlins is"
Ohlins is just like you, except they allow people to re-valve their product. Tell me why I'm not different, tell me (and everyone) why I'm full of BS, I want to know and I'm serious (just keep the name calling under your breath please
). BTW I tried calling you when I read your surprising response but there was no answer (I called the phone number on the web site). I wanted you to know none of this is personal
.
Apr 13, 2006, 09:06 PM
#133
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Originally Posted by DMS_Mark
The MOTON two ways are under 6000$,
One of the advantages of a remote reservoir damper like the Moton is the nitrogen divider piston is located in the reservoir canister, not in the shock body like DMS and Ohlins. This allows one to run more shock stroke without risking bottoming the shock out internally during hard track use. Another is the ability to vary nitrogen pressure quickly and easily by utilizing a simple schrader type valve on the remote canister, the Moton has a 200psi adjustment range, which allows tunability by the end user with a simple $85 tool.
The key with any of the suspensions available is adjusting them for the end users actual use and experience level. I have had customers win events on the majority of brands available, with the proper tuning for the circumstances.
Apr 14, 2006, 09:28 AM
#134
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Good advice john, and Chrono do you want me to list your questions by
A) STATE
B) Country
C) Continenant ?
There are 100's and 100's of tests and valving changes we have done on all of our models, that is how we arrived at something that the majority of people are happy with.
The theory of having the gas champer seperate is right on by allowing to have more stroke, but if the length is not designed into the shaft, no stroke is gained.
We have added external resevoirs on our higher end units were you can customize the gas pressure you want, we do not use anything that high though in the majority of applications. Normally under 2.5 bar.
Hey John, when are you going to come up to montreal? Three-Rivers Grand Prix maybe? Would love to show you around, it would be a blast!
-mark
A) STATE
B) Country
C) Continenant ?
There are 100's and 100's of tests and valving changes we have done on all of our models, that is how we arrived at something that the majority of people are happy with.
The theory of having the gas champer seperate is right on by allowing to have more stroke, but if the length is not designed into the shaft, no stroke is gained.
We have added external resevoirs on our higher end units were you can customize the gas pressure you want, we do not use anything that high though in the majority of applications. Normally under 2.5 bar.
Hey John, when are you going to come up to montreal? Three-Rivers Grand Prix maybe? Would love to show you around, it would be a blast!
-mark
Apr 25, 2006, 03:06 AM
#135
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Originally Posted by john@rre
One of the advantages of a remote reservoir damper like the Moton is the nitrogen divider piston is located in the reservoir canister, not in the shock body like DMS and Ohlins. This allows one to run more shock stroke without risking bottoming the shock out internally during hard track use. Another is the ability to vary nitrogen pressure quickly and easily by utilizing a simple schrader type valve on the remote canister, the Moton has a 200psi adjustment range, which allows tunability by the end user with a simple $85 tool.
I naively thought that as long as the pressure was sufficient to prevent cavitation then any more pressure wont have an effect. What am I missing?