the end all brake and suspension thread
Jun 8, 2006, 02:32 AM
#1
the end all brake and suspension thread
ok i don't know how long it's gonna take me to finish this but ****... i guess i'm doing it cuz... i don't even know why i'm doing it.
before i say anything it is by far best to first search all of evom's resources before you ask any question about suspension. the reason this faq is being made is simply for the fact that too many questions have been asked repeatedly too many times.
here are some preliminary references for interested buyers and enthusiasts to read:
http://www.chris-longhurst.com/carbi...ion_bible.html
http://www.club4ag.com/faq%20and%20t...mendations.htm
http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Car_handling (similar but more permanent)
WHAT DO YOU WANT?
when it comes to suspension there are many choices to be made and you can't make any of them until you decide what you want. even that is a question. so first, what do you want? once you've decided what you want then you can proceed on with the endless sleepless nights of debating and recanting and more debating about what you're gonna get.
i'll start with the most casual applications and then move on to full dedicated race setups. in the end the philosophy is always the same. get what you need to get the job done, only do more if you have money to waste.
if you are a show car stud and just want a 'drop' then there are several questions you want to ask yourself.
how low?
do i want a comfortable ride?
do i want to compromise handling?
do i drive that often?
do i still want to drive it like it's an evo?
some of these questions are redundant but i put them there to emphasize the point.
if you don't drive your car and it just sits in show rooms and occasionally moves to a car show then you really don't need top of the line coilovers unless that too is a part of the show. and if the latter is the case then it doesn't matter how you have it setup or what kind or weight springs you use.
consider any spring or coilover, consider even cutting springs or worm gear clamping them. since your suspension doesn't matter too much as it's not very much used. if you must bling it then consider the jdm hottness coilovers.
if you are a 'euro' style baller then you have to ask yourself:
do i just cruise around in my car?
do i slow down to dangerously low speeds to go over bumps, gravel, driveways etc?
do i swerve on the highway to avoid potholes
do i basically drive to cater to my overly lowered, ready to bottom out car?
if you do drive your car low and you want ONLY a comfortable ride. this can be done by getting a set of coilovers, lowering to the desired height and then tuning the suspension to full soft. but if you do this DO NOT drive like you have s performance vehicle... you will end up bottoming out, losing traction, looking like an idiot and possibly hurting other people. man up and act the way you paid to, if you didn't get racing suspension, don't race!
consider any coilover as the quality doesn't matter too much when you just want a cushy ride. you can determine how much longevity you want personally and go from there. companies like tein, tanabe, jic, buddyclub etc ad nauseum make suspension for people JUST LIKE YOU. their backwards spring rates and horrid damping will not give you a balanced performance handling machine, but a lowered, cool cruise, pimp ride.
if you don't want to go coilovers you must ask yourself
do i want to compromise the life of my dampers?
which springs are best match to my dampers?
am i ok with the drop?
if you want a lowered ride and you're on a budget. then you must look into springs that match the factory dampers. such springs will give you a better feel overall and the 'drop' that you may seek. keep in mind that the mr and the gsr have different dampers and thus require different springs.
consider espelir gt, works, swift.
if you're a track hound but you're only a beginner or don't have lofty aspirations to become the next time attack king, then ask yourself
who should i have tune my suspension?
how much am i willing to spend to have some fun?
how much life do i want out of these coilovers?
if you want a track ONLY ENTHUsiast's suspension. you only use your car on the track, you don't drive bumpy streets, your car is a trailor queen but you're not quite experienced enough to do your own knob fiddling. then you may only consider coilovers. the fact is that most coilovers will be just fine for a track application. you don't have to have the best. you may want someone VERY experienced to set them up, but as long as they can set them up in one good very generalized configuration then you're good to go. this means go to a well known winningest guru and have them take something off the shelf and "make it work" it's not their custom shiznat but it'll do the job.
if you're an obsessive compulsive track hound that loves to drive on, embarass big hp cars in your awd sedan, roll off, and then roll home on your r compound tires, then consider this to yourself...
who do i like best out of all the suspension tuners?
who's most accessible to me?
who's driving philosophy do i most match up with?
who is modifying the suspensions that i'm looking for?
what kind of competition do i forsee myself in?
how many adjustments do i need?
do i know how to use those adjustments?
how much can i learn?
there's many more that i don't feel like putting in tonight.
if you must have the best of both street and track then you must only consider the custom tuned suspension packages from well known suspension tuners. there are no ifs ands or maybes, if this is your desire then you must fork out the money and humble yourself, otherwise just change your preference to include the crappy ride that other less holy suspension setups will provide you.
going to a well known suspension tuner means that the product you receive is well tested, the damping is well matched to the custom spring rates. you don't have to sit track side and scratch your *** wondering how many different springs you should go home and order cuz the ones that are best are already under your wheel wells. your time is then better spend making FINE small knob twists as you check your stopwatch, gps timer and motec logging and discussing with your favorite suspension guru how big of a hoosier you can fit without pulling your fenders too much.
consider: john mueller's - ohlins, motons, dms, jic, buddyclubs and almost any other suspension that is worth customizing.
paul gerrard's - ohlins.
robi's - dms, kw.
other high end suspensions you may consider: jrz, ok someone help me out here... i'm blanking.
if you're a suspension guru and you race in the upper echelons of competition... stop reading this and mocking my grassroots upcoming.
NOW MORE BASICS
there's more to suspension than brand names and lingo but here's a start.
in the basics of chassis dynamics, stiffer always means faster loading. seam welded chassis, faster chassis communication (intra chassis loading). stiffer springs, faster tire loading. stiffer sway bars, faster tire loading. stiffer strut towers, faster suspension communication which translates into faster tire loading. remember... too stiff is bad, hopping is bad, loading tires too quickly gives LESS traction. and the last and first thing about chassis tuning is it's all about the tires... you're doing it for the tires, to not overheat them, to give them more traction, to give them more travel to give them less deflection, all about tires. if there's anything else it's about... it's about you... what makes you feel good.
SPRING RATE
spring rate is the most basic part of suspension. it's what your car sits on. the spring absorbs the bumps and sways that the chassis encounters. the stiffer the spring the harsher the ride. the damper makes it so you don't oscillate forever. the stiffer the spring the stronger the damping needed. so of course the weaker the spring the less damping force needed. springs used in adjustable perch coilovers can be adjusted to stiffer settings by tightening the perch and giving the spring more preload. the opposite can also be achieved by reducing the spring preload.
DAMPING
it's the single most important factor of coilover suspensions, simply because this is the only factor that largely differs between manufacturers. a spring is a spring is a spring, and the mounting knuckles and all that crap doesn't get too fancy. what can get very fancy is the way that a manufacturer chooses to damp their spings.
in short, damping is achieved by moving a plunger through oil. the plunger has holes in it and as the oil goes through the holes the viscocity slows everything down.
there's 4 types of damping, high speed and low speed, compression and rebound. there's 4 combinations begot from these 4 types of damping. high speed compression, low speed compression, high speed rebound, low speed rebound.
high speed is when you hit a bump, wheel goes up fast and comes down fast.
low speed is when you make a turn in, wheel compresses slow and when things stable it comes back out slow.
special case! overdamping. overdamping is the when the damper goes hydraulic (solid) because the orifaces of the piston are too small and don't allow the oil through fast enough. this creates a suspension that feels like a solid rod. many cars such as civics and corollas come overdamped and this is apparent when those porcellein bobble heads start chipping their necks and shoulders cuz the ride is so harsh. overdamping is usually a case of high speed damping.
SUSPENSION TRAVEL
proper suspension travel is very important in all cars, not just race cars. not having enough travel in your suspension results in "bottoming out" or hitting hte bump stops of your suspension. this is a bad thing as the suspension at that point CEASES to operate. this is the equivalent of going hydraulic in your dampers. no more movement means your car gets a sharp jolt and likely a big hop in the air which is no good for handling or safety.
COUPLING BARS
also known as sway bars, anti-sway bars, anti-roll bars. these bars are shaped like a U or a C depending on how you look at them. they basically couple the front wheels to each other and the rear wheels to each other. sway bars are not necessary but are present in most all modern vehicles.
the sway bar makes the wheels on the two sides of the car less independant of each other. when one tries to move up... the other will too, this keeps the one that's trying to lift, from actually doing so.
the way this happens is that the bar resists the twisting and this resistance to twist creates a spring like force. sway bars can be adjustable. the FURTHER OUT the link is the SOFTER the setting. the CLOSER the link is the STIFFER the setting.
sway bars increase the overall spring rate but ONLY under cornering conditions. under normal conditions where the load on both tranaxle wheels are the same, there is no spring force created as the assembly moves up and down as one, not torqueing the bar. this means that the bars only contribute to the wheel rate under corning.
coupling bars have the advantage of increasing spring rate only in active conditions, this also allows for a lot of suspension travel as the spring is allowed to move and does not have to be too stiff in order to create the proper cornering reaction forces. this is advantageous for street cars as full suspension travel and a liveable ride become more possible.
WHEEL RATE
wheels rate is the final spring rate experienced by the wheel, this total rate factors in sway bars, springs, damping rate and maybe even tire pressure to create an overall amount of resistance to body rolling.
SPRUNG AND UNSPRUNG WEIGHT
sprung weight is all the weight of the car that is held up by the springs. you may have though that all the weight is held up by the springs but this would be incorrect to assume. basically everything that is below the top part of the damper is not held up by the spring. this includes lower control arms, the bottom half of the damper, the wheel, the hub, the axle, brakes, etc etc.
everything else that is held directly or indirectly by the monocoque or subframes connected to the top part of the suspesion is sprung weight.
ALIGNMENT and TIRE PRESSURE
the alignment and tire pressure are two things that you always want to keep in very specific settings. alignment should be addressed after any change to suspension geometry. tire pressure should be adjusted according to heat, wear, contact patch and other such tire conditions. read further for alignment details.
CAMBER
camber is the way your wheels sit with relation to the verticle axis of the car. basically if you're behind your car looking at both wheels / \ this is known as negative camber and \ / and this is known as positve camber.
negative camber increases lateral grip to an extent because as you apply lateral loads to the tire it will deflect to INCREASE its contact patch instead of sliding onto the shoulder, decreasing the contact patch.
TOE-IN and TOE-OUT
toe is the direction that your tires are facing relative to the horizontal plane of the car. so if you're looking from above the car and your wheels look like / \ then you are toe-in, if it looks like \ / then that's toe-out.
VARIOUS CENTERS and AXIS
the most common phrase used chassis tuning is the center of gravity. the center of gravity is the point which all the forces that act on the car act through. the roll center is the verticle moment of the car, or the place where the center of gravity torques about/around. the polar moment of the car is the value that dictates how easily the car spins/torques about the center of mass. you can affect all these values through lowering, track width, wheel base and various other manipulations of suspension geometry.
CHASSIS BRACING
chassis bracing is used to stiffen the chassis. stiffening the car's monocoque will quicken response and provide more accurate feedback to the driver. bracing can include full weld-in or bolt-in cages, strut tower bars, lower control arm braces, various bars gussets and other such items placed throughout a car's critical structural areas. one common misconception is that strut tower bars keep the towers from leaning towards each other. in actuallity they keep the towers from pulling AWAY from each other.
MONOTUBE vs. TWIN TUBE
this is about as deep as i'm going to get into coilovers. any more and you can reference the advanced section for the ultimate suspension discussion and reference material. monotube is better than twin tube. twin tube is cheaper that's why it's used. monotubes can come with resevoirs. resevoirs are great because they give you all the air you need without taking up VERTICLE space in your wheel well, PLUS you can have the cute adjustment knobs placed there for easy access and convenient adjusting from an engineering standpoint.
some very good information would come from all the "making it stick" articles in sports compact car magazine.
known suspension gurus include: john mueller (road race chassis/engineering), paul gerrard (vishnu tuning), robi (robispec). i'm sure there are others that i've left out but these are the ones i talk with most.
here are some useful links from evom:
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...ight=robi+paul
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...ight=robi+paul
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...ight=robi+paul
before i say anything it is by far best to first search all of evom's resources before you ask any question about suspension. the reason this faq is being made is simply for the fact that too many questions have been asked repeatedly too many times.
here are some preliminary references for interested buyers and enthusiasts to read:
http://www.chris-longhurst.com/carbi...ion_bible.html
http://www.club4ag.com/faq%20and%20t...mendations.htm
http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Car_handling (similar but more permanent)
WHAT DO YOU WANT?
when it comes to suspension there are many choices to be made and you can't make any of them until you decide what you want. even that is a question. so first, what do you want? once you've decided what you want then you can proceed on with the endless sleepless nights of debating and recanting and more debating about what you're gonna get.
i'll start with the most casual applications and then move on to full dedicated race setups. in the end the philosophy is always the same. get what you need to get the job done, only do more if you have money to waste.
if you are a show car stud and just want a 'drop' then there are several questions you want to ask yourself.
how low?
do i want a comfortable ride?
do i want to compromise handling?
do i drive that often?
do i still want to drive it like it's an evo?
some of these questions are redundant but i put them there to emphasize the point.
if you don't drive your car and it just sits in show rooms and occasionally moves to a car show then you really don't need top of the line coilovers unless that too is a part of the show. and if the latter is the case then it doesn't matter how you have it setup or what kind or weight springs you use.
consider any spring or coilover, consider even cutting springs or worm gear clamping them. since your suspension doesn't matter too much as it's not very much used. if you must bling it then consider the jdm hottness coilovers.
if you are a 'euro' style baller then you have to ask yourself:
do i just cruise around in my car?
do i slow down to dangerously low speeds to go over bumps, gravel, driveways etc?
do i swerve on the highway to avoid potholes
do i basically drive to cater to my overly lowered, ready to bottom out car?
if you do drive your car low and you want ONLY a comfortable ride. this can be done by getting a set of coilovers, lowering to the desired height and then tuning the suspension to full soft. but if you do this DO NOT drive like you have s performance vehicle... you will end up bottoming out, losing traction, looking like an idiot and possibly hurting other people. man up and act the way you paid to, if you didn't get racing suspension, don't race!
consider any coilover as the quality doesn't matter too much when you just want a cushy ride. you can determine how much longevity you want personally and go from there. companies like tein, tanabe, jic, buddyclub etc ad nauseum make suspension for people JUST LIKE YOU. their backwards spring rates and horrid damping will not give you a balanced performance handling machine, but a lowered, cool cruise, pimp ride.
if you don't want to go coilovers you must ask yourself
do i want to compromise the life of my dampers?
which springs are best match to my dampers?
am i ok with the drop?
if you want a lowered ride and you're on a budget. then you must look into springs that match the factory dampers. such springs will give you a better feel overall and the 'drop' that you may seek. keep in mind that the mr and the gsr have different dampers and thus require different springs.
consider espelir gt, works, swift.
if you're a track hound but you're only a beginner or don't have lofty aspirations to become the next time attack king, then ask yourself
who should i have tune my suspension?
how much am i willing to spend to have some fun?
how much life do i want out of these coilovers?
if you want a track ONLY ENTHUsiast's suspension. you only use your car on the track, you don't drive bumpy streets, your car is a trailor queen but you're not quite experienced enough to do your own knob fiddling. then you may only consider coilovers. the fact is that most coilovers will be just fine for a track application. you don't have to have the best. you may want someone VERY experienced to set them up, but as long as they can set them up in one good very generalized configuration then you're good to go. this means go to a well known winningest guru and have them take something off the shelf and "make it work" it's not their custom shiznat but it'll do the job.
if you're an obsessive compulsive track hound that loves to drive on, embarass big hp cars in your awd sedan, roll off, and then roll home on your r compound tires, then consider this to yourself...
who do i like best out of all the suspension tuners?
who's most accessible to me?
who's driving philosophy do i most match up with?
who is modifying the suspensions that i'm looking for?
what kind of competition do i forsee myself in?
how many adjustments do i need?
do i know how to use those adjustments?
how much can i learn?
there's many more that i don't feel like putting in tonight.
if you must have the best of both street and track then you must only consider the custom tuned suspension packages from well known suspension tuners. there are no ifs ands or maybes, if this is your desire then you must fork out the money and humble yourself, otherwise just change your preference to include the crappy ride that other less holy suspension setups will provide you.
going to a well known suspension tuner means that the product you receive is well tested, the damping is well matched to the custom spring rates. you don't have to sit track side and scratch your *** wondering how many different springs you should go home and order cuz the ones that are best are already under your wheel wells. your time is then better spend making FINE small knob twists as you check your stopwatch, gps timer and motec logging and discussing with your favorite suspension guru how big of a hoosier you can fit without pulling your fenders too much.
consider: john mueller's - ohlins, motons, dms, jic, buddyclubs and almost any other suspension that is worth customizing.
paul gerrard's - ohlins.
robi's - dms, kw.
other high end suspensions you may consider: jrz, ok someone help me out here... i'm blanking.
if you're a suspension guru and you race in the upper echelons of competition... stop reading this and mocking my grassroots upcoming.
NOW MORE BASICS
there's more to suspension than brand names and lingo but here's a start.
in the basics of chassis dynamics, stiffer always means faster loading. seam welded chassis, faster chassis communication (intra chassis loading). stiffer springs, faster tire loading. stiffer sway bars, faster tire loading. stiffer strut towers, faster suspension communication which translates into faster tire loading. remember... too stiff is bad, hopping is bad, loading tires too quickly gives LESS traction. and the last and first thing about chassis tuning is it's all about the tires... you're doing it for the tires, to not overheat them, to give them more traction, to give them more travel to give them less deflection, all about tires. if there's anything else it's about... it's about you... what makes you feel good.
SPRING RATE
spring rate is the most basic part of suspension. it's what your car sits on. the spring absorbs the bumps and sways that the chassis encounters. the stiffer the spring the harsher the ride. the damper makes it so you don't oscillate forever. the stiffer the spring the stronger the damping needed. so of course the weaker the spring the less damping force needed. springs used in adjustable perch coilovers can be adjusted to stiffer settings by tightening the perch and giving the spring more preload. the opposite can also be achieved by reducing the spring preload.
DAMPING
it's the single most important factor of coilover suspensions, simply because this is the only factor that largely differs between manufacturers. a spring is a spring is a spring, and the mounting knuckles and all that crap doesn't get too fancy. what can get very fancy is the way that a manufacturer chooses to damp their spings.
in short, damping is achieved by moving a plunger through oil. the plunger has holes in it and as the oil goes through the holes the viscocity slows everything down.
there's 4 types of damping, high speed and low speed, compression and rebound. there's 4 combinations begot from these 4 types of damping. high speed compression, low speed compression, high speed rebound, low speed rebound.
high speed is when you hit a bump, wheel goes up fast and comes down fast.
low speed is when you make a turn in, wheel compresses slow and when things stable it comes back out slow.
special case! overdamping. overdamping is the when the damper goes hydraulic (solid) because the orifaces of the piston are too small and don't allow the oil through fast enough. this creates a suspension that feels like a solid rod. many cars such as civics and corollas come overdamped and this is apparent when those porcellein bobble heads start chipping their necks and shoulders cuz the ride is so harsh. overdamping is usually a case of high speed damping.
SUSPENSION TRAVEL
proper suspension travel is very important in all cars, not just race cars. not having enough travel in your suspension results in "bottoming out" or hitting hte bump stops of your suspension. this is a bad thing as the suspension at that point CEASES to operate. this is the equivalent of going hydraulic in your dampers. no more movement means your car gets a sharp jolt and likely a big hop in the air which is no good for handling or safety.
COUPLING BARS
also known as sway bars, anti-sway bars, anti-roll bars. these bars are shaped like a U or a C depending on how you look at them. they basically couple the front wheels to each other and the rear wheels to each other. sway bars are not necessary but are present in most all modern vehicles.
the sway bar makes the wheels on the two sides of the car less independant of each other. when one tries to move up... the other will too, this keeps the one that's trying to lift, from actually doing so.
the way this happens is that the bar resists the twisting and this resistance to twist creates a spring like force. sway bars can be adjustable. the FURTHER OUT the link is the SOFTER the setting. the CLOSER the link is the STIFFER the setting.
sway bars increase the overall spring rate but ONLY under cornering conditions. under normal conditions where the load on both tranaxle wheels are the same, there is no spring force created as the assembly moves up and down as one, not torqueing the bar. this means that the bars only contribute to the wheel rate under corning.
coupling bars have the advantage of increasing spring rate only in active conditions, this also allows for a lot of suspension travel as the spring is allowed to move and does not have to be too stiff in order to create the proper cornering reaction forces. this is advantageous for street cars as full suspension travel and a liveable ride become more possible.
WHEEL RATE
wheels rate is the final spring rate experienced by the wheel, this total rate factors in sway bars, springs, damping rate and maybe even tire pressure to create an overall amount of resistance to body rolling.
SPRUNG AND UNSPRUNG WEIGHT
sprung weight is all the weight of the car that is held up by the springs. you may have though that all the weight is held up by the springs but this would be incorrect to assume. basically everything that is below the top part of the damper is not held up by the spring. this includes lower control arms, the bottom half of the damper, the wheel, the hub, the axle, brakes, etc etc.
everything else that is held directly or indirectly by the monocoque or subframes connected to the top part of the suspesion is sprung weight.
ALIGNMENT and TIRE PRESSURE
the alignment and tire pressure are two things that you always want to keep in very specific settings. alignment should be addressed after any change to suspension geometry. tire pressure should be adjusted according to heat, wear, contact patch and other such tire conditions. read further for alignment details.
CAMBER
camber is the way your wheels sit with relation to the verticle axis of the car. basically if you're behind your car looking at both wheels / \ this is known as negative camber and \ / and this is known as positve camber.
negative camber increases lateral grip to an extent because as you apply lateral loads to the tire it will deflect to INCREASE its contact patch instead of sliding onto the shoulder, decreasing the contact patch.
TOE-IN and TOE-OUT
toe is the direction that your tires are facing relative to the horizontal plane of the car. so if you're looking from above the car and your wheels look like / \ then you are toe-in, if it looks like \ / then that's toe-out.
VARIOUS CENTERS and AXIS
the most common phrase used chassis tuning is the center of gravity. the center of gravity is the point which all the forces that act on the car act through. the roll center is the verticle moment of the car, or the place where the center of gravity torques about/around. the polar moment of the car is the value that dictates how easily the car spins/torques about the center of mass. you can affect all these values through lowering, track width, wheel base and various other manipulations of suspension geometry.
CHASSIS BRACING
chassis bracing is used to stiffen the chassis. stiffening the car's monocoque will quicken response and provide more accurate feedback to the driver. bracing can include full weld-in or bolt-in cages, strut tower bars, lower control arm braces, various bars gussets and other such items placed throughout a car's critical structural areas. one common misconception is that strut tower bars keep the towers from leaning towards each other. in actuallity they keep the towers from pulling AWAY from each other.
MONOTUBE vs. TWIN TUBE
this is about as deep as i'm going to get into coilovers. any more and you can reference the advanced section for the ultimate suspension discussion and reference material. monotube is better than twin tube. twin tube is cheaper that's why it's used. monotubes can come with resevoirs. resevoirs are great because they give you all the air you need without taking up VERTICLE space in your wheel well, PLUS you can have the cute adjustment knobs placed there for easy access and convenient adjusting from an engineering standpoint.
some very good information would come from all the "making it stick" articles in sports compact car magazine.
known suspension gurus include: john mueller (road race chassis/engineering), paul gerrard (vishnu tuning), robi (robispec). i'm sure there are others that i've left out but these are the ones i talk with most.
here are some useful links from evom:
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...ight=robi+paul
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...ight=robi+paul
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...ight=robi+paul
Last edited by trinydex; Jun 14, 2006 at 01:02 AM.
Jun 8, 2006, 02:34 AM
#2
some info pilferd from speedracer's thread on socalevo.net. it's a purchaser's guide.
http://www.socalevo.net/index.php?op...&topic=17158.0
Coilovers:
APEXI PRO:..............560lbs(10.K).....560lbs(10.K)... .Adjustable
CUSCO Zero 1:........392lbs(7.0K).....280lbs(5.0k)....Adjusta ble
CUSCO Zero 2:........392lbs(7.0K).....280lbs(5.0k)....Adjusta ble
CUSCO Zero 2R:......392lbs(7.0K).....280lbs(5.0k)....Adjustab le
HKS Hypermax II:....392lbs(7.0k).....336lbs(6.0K)....Adjustable
HKS Hypermax RS....336lbs(6.0K).....280lbs(5.0k)....Adjustable
HKS Kansai Tarmac:.448lbs(8.0K).....448lbs(8.0K)....Adjustabl e
HKS Kansai Track:....896lbs(16.K).....784lbs(14.K)....Adjusta ble
HKS Performer:........392lbs(7.0k).....336lbs(6.0k)... .Adjustable
HKS PRO:.................672lbs(12.K).....672lbs(12.K) ....Adjustable
JIC FLT A2:...............560lbs(10.K).....504lbs(9.0K)... Adjustable
OHLINS FLAG L:.............ANy ..............Any ...............Adjustable
OHLINS R/T:.............250lbs(4.4k).....310lbs(5.5k)....Ad justable
Ralliart:....................336lbs(6.0K).....336l bs(6.0K)....Adjustable
Tein Basic:...............392lbs(7.0k).....336lbs(6.0K) ....Adjustable
Tein Flex:.................504lbs(9.0K).....448lbs(8.0K )....Adjustable
Tein SS:...................392lbs(7.0k).....336lbs(6.0k )....Adjustable
Tein RA:...................672lbs(12.K).....504lbs(9,0K )....Adjustable
Tein HA:...................504lbs(9.0K).....392lbs(7.0K )....Adjustable
Tein HT:...................896lbs(16.K).....672lbs(12.K )....Adjustable
ZEAL:.......................336lbs(6.0K).....280lb s(5.0k)....Adjustable
ZEAL Also:...............448lbs(8.0k).....392lbs(7.0k). ...Adjustable
According to the Mitsubishi service manual, your Evo should be aligned as follows:
Rear Camber: -1 degree +/- 30'
Rear Toe: 3mm +/- 2mm (0.12" +/- 0.07")
Front Camber: -1 degree +/- 30' or -2 degree +/- 30'
(Two settings available!)
Front camber should be less than 30' difference between the two front wheels.
Front Toe: 0mm +/- 2mm (0.00" +/- 0.08")
http://www.socalevo.net/index.php?op...&topic=17158.0
Coilovers:
APEXI PRO:..............560lbs(10.K).....560lbs(10.K)... .Adjustable
CUSCO Zero 1:........392lbs(7.0K).....280lbs(5.0k)....Adjusta ble
CUSCO Zero 2:........392lbs(7.0K).....280lbs(5.0k)....Adjusta ble
CUSCO Zero 2R:......392lbs(7.0K).....280lbs(5.0k)....Adjustab le
HKS Hypermax II:....392lbs(7.0k).....336lbs(6.0K)....Adjustable
HKS Hypermax RS....336lbs(6.0K).....280lbs(5.0k)....Adjustable
HKS Kansai Tarmac:.448lbs(8.0K).....448lbs(8.0K)....Adjustabl e
HKS Kansai Track:....896lbs(16.K).....784lbs(14.K)....Adjusta ble
HKS Performer:........392lbs(7.0k).....336lbs(6.0k)... .Adjustable
HKS PRO:.................672lbs(12.K).....672lbs(12.K) ....Adjustable
JIC FLT A2:...............560lbs(10.K).....504lbs(9.0K)... Adjustable
OHLINS FLAG L:.............ANy ..............Any ...............Adjustable
OHLINS R/T:.............250lbs(4.4k).....310lbs(5.5k)....Ad justable
Ralliart:....................336lbs(6.0K).....336l bs(6.0K)....Adjustable
Tein Basic:...............392lbs(7.0k).....336lbs(6.0K) ....Adjustable
Tein Flex:.................504lbs(9.0K).....448lbs(8.0K )....Adjustable
Tein SS:...................392lbs(7.0k).....336lbs(6.0k )....Adjustable
Tein RA:...................672lbs(12.K).....504lbs(9,0K )....Adjustable
Tein HA:...................504lbs(9.0K).....392lbs(7.0K )....Adjustable
Tein HT:...................896lbs(16.K).....672lbs(12.K )....Adjustable
ZEAL:.......................336lbs(6.0K).....280lb s(5.0k)....Adjustable
ZEAL Also:...............448lbs(8.0k).....392lbs(7.0k). ...Adjustable
According to the Mitsubishi service manual, your Evo should be aligned as follows:
Rear Camber: -1 degree +/- 30'
Rear Toe: 3mm +/- 2mm (0.12" +/- 0.07")
Front Camber: -1 degree +/- 30' or -2 degree +/- 30'
(Two settings available!)
Front camber should be less than 30' difference between the two front wheels.
Front Toe: 0mm +/- 2mm (0.00" +/- 0.08")
Jun 12, 2006, 03:49 AM
#4
this is a retrofit from my advanced forum discussion on brake rotors. but i think it will solve the problem of brake questions in general. learn through visuals!
the fact is that it doesn't get very much better than stock brembos as far as clamping power goes. reference:
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=196433
but much can be done for heat dissipation and intermediate retention (increase rotor size and improve aero/fluid dynamics).
the basic idea of intelligent rotor design is to maximize air flow THROUGH the rotor by pumping the air through. this is accomplished by establishing a low pressure zone on the outter ring of the rotor and a high pressure zone on the inside of the rotor. this can also be helped along by increasing air speed through the rotor by use of aerofoils.
there are several caveats. hot air expands, so does a manufacturer make expanding channels that may BUILD pressure but make room for expansion or do they make more narrow channels that accelerate air?
also the rotor is active, it moves which NECESSITATES air flow but you must EXPEDITE this process!
this is a picture of a typical pillar vane design rotor, not much to see, if we had a cutaway it would just be a buncha dots. some manufacturers get fancy with diamond pillars, these are just as bad as circular pillars even if said manufacturers will try to sell you otherwise.
this is a drawing of a potential straight vane design.
here's a picture of straight vane design.
project mu's straight pillar vane design
this is kangroo paw design by disc brakes australia, it's like a pillar vane but there are half as many channels on the ouside as there are on the inside, this is actually backwards. but could help with the expansion of hot air as to not back up further in the channels.
this is a typical curved vane rotor
http://www.roadraceengineering.com/e...s/backside.jpg
this is the most common curved vane design. same amount of channels all the way around. this example is from performance friction.
girodisc's regular curved vane rotors.
here is a sample of brembo's curved vane, straight vane and shaped pillar vane (similar to dba's roo paw design).
racing brake offers a very simple design. similar to movit's design in overall geometry it is simpler than movit in that they use full vane walls. there are twice as many channels on the outside as there are on the inside.
movit approaches the engineering of expanding the air differently, they use a fin on each rotor face to break up the flow, this design of course creates twice as many channels on the outside as there are on the inside. however movit adds just a TAD more surface area by using a FIN as opposed to a whole VANE wall.
this is stoptech's aerorotor. i will refer to this type of vaning as uniform, 1 internal vane stretches all the way to the outside. with stoptech's clever placement scheme they have narrow inner vanes expanded to wider outter vanes. notice the aerofoils on the inside ring.
this is ap's offering and it is fine indeed. notice that they use a "uniform vane" design but they create the low pressure zone on the outside ring by actually breaking up the vanes and causing cascadeed flow. notice also the aerofoils. notice that there are also movit type fins intbetween the channels, notice that the fins even have aerofoils. now you no longer wonder why they're so expensive.
here's brake man's hurricane rotor. made of stainless steel and it has all kinds of finning inside. unconventional and totally questionable as a company, not too many people have had experiences with brake man and some that have had bad ones.
as an ending note we'll put endless's "24 slot" rotor on blast here. the rotor loves minimizing surface area which is crucial for pad contact and pad friction. it's also great at shaving pads down quickly so you can buy more endless pads.
here's brembo's offering that shares the same sentiment. these are both obviously show rotors. just like cross drilled rotors are often now associated as being "show"
the fact is that it doesn't get very much better than stock brembos as far as clamping power goes. reference:
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=196433
but much can be done for heat dissipation and intermediate retention (increase rotor size and improve aero/fluid dynamics).
the basic idea of intelligent rotor design is to maximize air flow THROUGH the rotor by pumping the air through. this is accomplished by establishing a low pressure zone on the outter ring of the rotor and a high pressure zone on the inside of the rotor. this can also be helped along by increasing air speed through the rotor by use of aerofoils.
there are several caveats. hot air expands, so does a manufacturer make expanding channels that may BUILD pressure but make room for expansion or do they make more narrow channels that accelerate air?
also the rotor is active, it moves which NECESSITATES air flow but you must EXPEDITE this process!
this is a picture of a typical pillar vane design rotor, not much to see, if we had a cutaway it would just be a buncha dots. some manufacturers get fancy with diamond pillars, these are just as bad as circular pillars even if said manufacturers will try to sell you otherwise.
this is a drawing of a potential straight vane design.
here's a picture of straight vane design.
project mu's straight pillar vane design
this is kangroo paw design by disc brakes australia, it's like a pillar vane but there are half as many channels on the ouside as there are on the inside, this is actually backwards. but could help with the expansion of hot air as to not back up further in the channels.
this is a typical curved vane rotor
http://www.roadraceengineering.com/e...s/backside.jpg
this is the most common curved vane design. same amount of channels all the way around. this example is from performance friction.
girodisc's regular curved vane rotors.
here is a sample of brembo's curved vane, straight vane and shaped pillar vane (similar to dba's roo paw design).
racing brake offers a very simple design. similar to movit's design in overall geometry it is simpler than movit in that they use full vane walls. there are twice as many channels on the outside as there are on the inside.
movit approaches the engineering of expanding the air differently, they use a fin on each rotor face to break up the flow, this design of course creates twice as many channels on the outside as there are on the inside. however movit adds just a TAD more surface area by using a FIN as opposed to a whole VANE wall.
this is stoptech's aerorotor. i will refer to this type of vaning as uniform, 1 internal vane stretches all the way to the outside. with stoptech's clever placement scheme they have narrow inner vanes expanded to wider outter vanes. notice the aerofoils on the inside ring.
this is ap's offering and it is fine indeed. notice that they use a "uniform vane" design but they create the low pressure zone on the outside ring by actually breaking up the vanes and causing cascadeed flow. notice also the aerofoils. notice that there are also movit type fins intbetween the channels, notice that the fins even have aerofoils. now you no longer wonder why they're so expensive.
here's brake man's hurricane rotor. made of stainless steel and it has all kinds of finning inside. unconventional and totally questionable as a company, not too many people have had experiences with brake man and some that have had bad ones.
as an ending note we'll put endless's "24 slot" rotor on blast here. the rotor loves minimizing surface area which is crucial for pad contact and pad friction. it's also great at shaving pads down quickly so you can buy more endless pads.
here's brembo's offering that shares the same sentiment. these are both obviously show rotors. just like cross drilled rotors are often now associated as being "show"
Last edited by trinydex; Jun 19, 2006 at 09:17 PM.
Jun 12, 2006, 03:50 AM
#5
baer's eradispeed NON floating rotors.
notice endless's LACK of hat venting.
project mu's very normal hat venting
http://www.roadraceengineering.com/e...s/backside.jpg
pf's very unique full floating attatchement design.
http://www.roadraceengineering.com/e.../drill_not.jpg
and their approach to getting air from both sides of the hat, similar to dba and many other types of single side hat mount brakes.
disc brakes australia's approach to getting flow from both sides of the mounting hat.
girodisc's same approach
notice girodisc's fasteners and possible pad clearence issues.
stoptech's single side mounted hats, with aerofoil stand offs.
brembo's very conventional single side mounted hats, notice the antirattle hardware, spring clips.
this is a diagram of how racing brake's antirattle hardware works.
this is racing brake's hat mounting method, the center mounted hat. notice they use hex bolts instead of allen screws for their antirattle hardware.
racing brake's very innovative rear two piece rotor design that includes a cast iron ebrake drum.
racing brake's innovative vented slot design.
brake man's normal hat venting design.
Last edited by trinydex; Jun 20, 2006 at 05:33 PM.
Jun 13, 2006, 10:37 AM
#6
CALIPERS
MOBOBLOC vs. TWO-PIECE
http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_monobloc.shtml
additional brake info:
http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/te...e_papers.shtml
MOBOBLOC vs. TWO-PIECE
http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_monobloc.shtml
additional brake info:
http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/te...e_papers.shtml
Last edited by trinydex; Jun 19, 2006 at 03:44 AM.
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Jul 31, 2006, 03:20 PM
#8
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Originally Posted by trinydex
here's brembo's offering that shares the same sentiment. these are both obviously show rotors. just like cross drilled rotors are often now associated as being "show"
This disc above is not a Brembo disc.
I am unsure if you just mixed up the images but I do not recognize this rotor at all.
On a side note, I attached two of Brembo's "newer" slotting patterns below. Both patterns are very specific for inducing different characteristics for coefficient of friction, resistance to distortion and cracking, brake release, and lifespan.
The first is our Type3 grooved disc.
The second is our Type5 curved slotted disc.
If you look closely you can see that there are even changes in the depth, thickness and shapes of the grooves or slots. Each variation is intentional and provides a very specific purpose.
The last thing I want to make mention of is the misconception that a disc is just a hunk of iron. And that discs that are the same size and shape can perform roughly equivalently, or that a "special" or improved vane design can determine the performance or quality of that disc. This is not the case by any means as the design and metallurgy plays an even larger role in producing a disc that generates a high coefficient of friction, while managing the thermal energy without distorting or cracking, and has an equally impressive lifetime. Very few companies have the experience and/or ability to get to that level. Only real world testing and a long successful history in racing can play a real role in being able to achieve this.
Jul 31, 2006, 05:28 PM
#9
that picture was pulled off a website that was advertising for 3g eclipse brembo rotors. i don't know how legit they are but it was one of very few images i could find at all.
metallurgy is very important however i already have stated that you don't see much of that and it's not advertised and even if it were how well can we trust it because no one does proper testing of this kind of stuff. it's all secrets smokes and mirrors.
i for one know that project mu has some of the best metallurgy that goes into their rotors but their vane design sucks. that may not matter much in the end. but there's also a clear indication that something out there is better than it... so i think my point is justified. the best manufacturers will always manufacture something that is the best in all categories.
metallurgy is very important however i already have stated that you don't see much of that and it's not advertised and even if it were how well can we trust it because no one does proper testing of this kind of stuff. it's all secrets smokes and mirrors.
i for one know that project mu has some of the best metallurgy that goes into their rotors but their vane design sucks. that may not matter much in the end. but there's also a clear indication that something out there is better than it... so i think my point is justified. the best manufacturers will always manufacture something that is the best in all categories.
Aug 1, 2006, 10:06 AM
#10
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As mentioned above, the top brake manufacturer in the world is Brembo. Alcon and AP are also used in the highest forums of motorsport. There are a few up and coming companies like PFR, but only time will tell as it has for the tried and tested manufacturers.
The same applies to suspension, in many cases you get what you pay for. First determine what is the intended application, and choose a setup that is in accordance to what you are trying to accompish.
My two cents.
-mark
PS: To update the spring list above
DMS 40mm street shocks, MG type springs 350lb in a 320mm free length front and rear
DMS 50mm gravel, progressive 350lb springs, in a DP configuration at a 350mm free length
DMS 50mm tarmac, MG / KST progressive springs in a 700lb front and a 650lb rear configuration with a 290mm free length
The same applies to suspension, in many cases you get what you pay for. First determine what is the intended application, and choose a setup that is in accordance to what you are trying to accompish.
My two cents.
-mark
PS: To update the spring list above
DMS 40mm street shocks, MG type springs 350lb in a 320mm free length front and rear
DMS 50mm gravel, progressive 350lb springs, in a DP configuration at a 350mm free length
DMS 50mm tarmac, MG / KST progressive springs in a 700lb front and a 650lb rear configuration with a 290mm free length
Dec 26, 2007, 10:20 AM
#13
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Trinydex--
Are those alignment specs for any evo...8 & 9?
Also, If I never track the car...only a DD...would these specs remain the same? Given that I don't want to lose anything in regards to handling (those all out "yank" manuvuers...ya know)
FYI..my car is evo ix gsr
Are those alignment specs for any evo...8 & 9?
Also, If I never track the car...only a DD...would these specs remain the same? Given that I don't want to lose anything in regards to handling (those all out "yank" manuvuers...ya know)
FYI..my car is evo ix gsr
