Nitrogen in your tyres?
Jul 7, 2006, 08:25 AM
#31
^ LOL! Don't be sorry, he never said that the size of the molecule has anything to do with the tire pressure staying constant.
With regards to being able to get away with it for autocrossing, you obviously have no experience with this because multiple people who DO have experience with this have posted in the thread that it is very helpfull/ does make an impact even at the autocross level.
Your last comment is stupid, a good driver will adapt to any situation.....so if you have are a good driver why bother doing anything to your suspension? Should formula 1 drivers have no mechanics? 99 percent of the people who own evo's cannot take full advantage of what a stock car can offer but they mod them anyway, added performance is added performance whether you use it or not.
Scorke
With regards to being able to get away with it for autocrossing, you obviously have no experience with this because multiple people who DO have experience with this have posted in the thread that it is very helpfull/ does make an impact even at the autocross level.
Your last comment is stupid, a good driver will adapt to any situation.....so if you have are a good driver why bother doing anything to your suspension? Should formula 1 drivers have no mechanics? 99 percent of the people who own evo's cannot take full advantage of what a stock car can offer but they mod them anyway, added performance is added performance whether you use it or not.
Scorke
Jul 7, 2006, 10:16 AM
#32
Originally Posted by scorke
With regards to being able to get away with it for autocrossing, you obviously have no experience with this because multiple people who DO have experience with this have posted in the thread that it is very helpfull/ does make an impact even at the autocross level.
Your last comment is stupid, a good driver will adapt to any situation.....so if you have are a good driver why bother doing anything to your suspension? Should formula 1 drivers have no mechanics? 99 percent of the people who own evo's cannot take full advantage of what a stock car can offer but they mod them anyway, added performance is added performance whether you use it or not.
Scorke
Your last comment is stupid, a good driver will adapt to any situation.....so if you have are a good driver why bother doing anything to your suspension? Should formula 1 drivers have no mechanics? 99 percent of the people who own evo's cannot take full advantage of what a stock car can offer but they mod them anyway, added performance is added performance whether you use it or not.
Scorke
I don't think my comment is stupid, as obviously you lack the ability to understand what it means and are twisting it and taking it out of context to another extreme. Did I say suspension tuning is not required? Did I say F1 drivers do not need mechanics? Obviously you need the good drivers and mechanics to bring out the full potential.
I think you are stupid for coming to your stupid conclusions about me, see I could say the same thing about you. Have a nice day
Jul 7, 2006, 10:22 AM
#33
Originally Posted by DaWorstPlaya
I'm sure you are aware what the ideal gas law stands for and 2 different gasses that occupy the same volume at a certain temperature will exert the same pressure. Thus 2 different gasses in the same volume and at the same pressure will have the same temperature. I'm sure you are aware the thermal expansion and thus pressure for all gasses is the same depending on the increase in temperature or vice versa ... Thus the whole basis of your arguement goes out the window.
Originally Posted by DaWorstPlaya
A good driver will adapt to any situation ...
Originally Posted by DaWorstPlaya
Even when auto-xing, depending on the time between runs, IMHO you can get away with using regular air.
If you could, point out where in any of my posts I have posted/described incorrect ideas/explanations of why nitrogen is better and why air is worse that would be super, but I don't think you can. Again, you are incorrect and wrong on many accounts, while I am not, so please do not try to correct me.
Scorke
Last edited by scorke; Jul 7, 2006 at 10:31 AM.
Jul 7, 2006, 10:37 AM
#34
Can you point out which broad sweeping comment I made about Nitrogen that is in correct in this thread? That it is a gas and follows the ideal gas law as any other gas does? What the fact that I said IMHO its more of a marketing gimmic? That the performance difference is not there when compared to tires are already warmed up? Or that fact that I agreed that it is the better choice if you are starting with cold tires?
Jul 7, 2006, 10:41 AM
#35
Sorry, was my post above yours not clear enough? The fact that you said that the performance IYHO you can get away using air, yes you can get away with using air but performance will suffer signifigantly.
Um, I guess that was the broad sweeping comment that was incorrect, that nitrogen was not advantageous in all situations regarding tire performance.
Scorke
Um, I guess that was the broad sweeping comment that was incorrect, that nitrogen was not advantageous in all situations regarding tire performance.
Scorke
Jul 7, 2006, 09:02 PM
#39
Originally Posted by DaWorstPlaya
LOL! sorry but that is not true, the size of the molecule has nothing to do with the tire pressure staying constant. The main reason is because of the moisture that is in regular air which changes state from liquid to vapor due to condensation and evaporation within the tire. It is a known fact that gas occupies more volume than liquid and when you have a constantly changing state of equilibrium due to temperature changes ... well you know what happens. But as I said I agree that nitrogen is probably better if you have to start out with cold tires but if you can warm up your tires to the required operating temps, it doesn't matter. Even when auto-xing, depending on the time between runs, IMHO you can get away with using regular air.
BTW, how well your tires hold air is determined my how good your valves are a whether you have leaks or not, it has nothing to do with N2 being in your tires. I also find the last part you said I find hard to believe .... it may be more expensive but that may be to avoid it getting contaminated with regular air. You can use any regular air-tank to store N2 as long as you can feed it in.
Ultimately IMHO, all this doesn't mean jack if the driver can't drive to take advantage of it. A good driver will adapt to any situation ...
BTW, how well your tires hold air is determined my how good your valves are a whether you have leaks or not, it has nothing to do with N2 being in your tires. I also find the last part you said I find hard to believe .... it may be more expensive but that may be to avoid it getting contaminated with regular air. You can use any regular air-tank to store N2 as long as you can feed it in.
Ultimately IMHO, all this doesn't mean jack if the driver can't drive to take advantage of it. A good driver will adapt to any situation ...
"Remember, air is about 80 percent nitrogen to start with--so the difference is not profound. The balance of the volume of air is mostly oxygen, which is bad for your tires. Oxygen promotes breakdown of the rubber, so your tires should last longer with pure nitrogen. Furthermore, nitrogen molecules migrate through rubber more slowly than oxygen, so your tires should lose pressure more slowly. (I'm assuming you check your tire pressures on a regular schedule.)"
The guys at costco also said the same, it will retain the pressure in the tires longer, they only use nitrogen and they sell to a lot of cars, that for warranty have to return every 5k miles. My car needed air almost every two weeks (I tend to drive with lots of pressure [ I just like the feeling, and tires last longer with my settings]), now with nitrogen I only have to refill when I autocross.
Secondly:
In autocross, it is not legal to warm the tires by any method, plus you do not get warming laps.
And yes, a good driver can drive faster than a slow driver. This does not have to do anything with Nitrogen.
Any further questions?
Last edited by supersupra; Jul 7, 2006 at 10:32 PM.
Jul 8, 2006, 01:28 AM
#40
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Originally Posted by DaWorstPlaya
LOL! sorry but that is not true, the size of the molecule has nothing to do with the tire pressure staying constant.
BTW, how well your tires hold air is determined my how good your valves are a whether you have leaks or not, it has nothing to do with N2 being in your tires. ..
BTW, how well your tires hold air is determined my how good your valves are a whether you have leaks or not, it has nothing to do with N2 being in your tires. ..
I work in the claims depertment (so DO NOT file a claim that your curb damage was caused by a tire mounter, I'll just have to call you an idiot
)at Costco and I can tell you we didn't add the nitrogen filtration system to our shops "just because". The main selling point is that pressure stays more constant and less leaks out through the carcass. We did a thorough study on this, tires with nitrogen that were not inflated between rotations tend to average being 1-3psi low. Tires with oxygen tened to be 5-9psi low on average. Yes it works.
Jul 10, 2006, 09:11 AM
#41
supersupra the average life span of a tire is is only good for 6-10 years depending on type of usage before the rubber deteriorates so much that it is not safe for driving due to natural processes. How soon does the average EVO owner change tires? How long between tire changes for the EVO owner that drives aggressively? The more aggressive drivers usually change tires once a year, or sooner depending on your tire choice and driving style, # of events, etc, YMMV.
So from a common sense perspective, you are going to wear out your tires much sooner than before the O2 and the H2O have a chance to react and deteriorate the rubber. Ok what about the outside of your tire that is exposed to the elements? HUH?
The next one, gas molecules migrate through the rubber and valve because like everything in life they are not a perfect system. There are going to be microscopic holes and crack in what should be a prefectly enclosed system, thus you are going to get leaks because of gas molecules escaping through these holes. N2 is not going to make a difference. They don't just magically migrate through rubber, it's not like diffusion or an osmiotic barrier exists. O2 and H20 may react with the rubber, breaking it down a gradually causing microscopic holes but this rate is going to be very very very slow. But then it comes down to how soon are you wearing out your tires due to your driving style.
"Oxygen promotes breakdown of the rubber, so your tires should last longer with pure nitrogen. Furthermore, nitrogen molecules migrate through rubber more slowly than oxygen, so your tires should lose pressure more slowly."
Note the use of should vs will/would ... meaning that it may or may not, but the writer thinks that it may make a difference.
I only brought up the driver part because that is the biggest factor in any form of competetive racing events. You could put N2 in all your tires and lose to someone with regular air in their tires driving the identical car with identical tires. Then what did N2 gain you if your goal is to win? It's not like most of us are Michael Schummacher (sp?) and are battling for the last 10ths of a second .... or is it?
NDgsx I would have to say IMHO the carcass design makes a bigger difference on how well the system is able to hold air vs whether N2 or air is being used. A better enclosed system will hold pressure longer than one that isn't. Then it comes down to the quality of the tire being used, I would think that is a bigger factor and not the fact that N2 and air is being used.
As I have said I'm only contributing to this discussion, not to say "you are wrong" and stroke my own ego, but so that all the EVO owners out there reading this thread can gather some scientific ideas from this thread and decide for themselves if it is worth it or not for their specific application.
Yes I do have a strong back ground in science and I do know what I am talking about. To me it isn't worth it and is more of a marketing gimmic ... I'm done with this thread.
So from a common sense perspective, you are going to wear out your tires much sooner than before the O2 and the H2O have a chance to react and deteriorate the rubber. Ok what about the outside of your tire that is exposed to the elements? HUH?
The next one, gas molecules migrate through the rubber and valve because like everything in life they are not a perfect system. There are going to be microscopic holes and crack in what should be a prefectly enclosed system, thus you are going to get leaks because of gas molecules escaping through these holes. N2 is not going to make a difference. They don't just magically migrate through rubber, it's not like diffusion or an osmiotic barrier exists. O2 and H20 may react with the rubber, breaking it down a gradually causing microscopic holes but this rate is going to be very very very slow. But then it comes down to how soon are you wearing out your tires due to your driving style.
"Oxygen promotes breakdown of the rubber, so your tires should last longer with pure nitrogen. Furthermore, nitrogen molecules migrate through rubber more slowly than oxygen, so your tires should lose pressure more slowly."
Note the use of should vs will/would ... meaning that it may or may not, but the writer thinks that it may make a difference.
I only brought up the driver part because that is the biggest factor in any form of competetive racing events. You could put N2 in all your tires and lose to someone with regular air in their tires driving the identical car with identical tires. Then what did N2 gain you if your goal is to win? It's not like most of us are Michael Schummacher (sp?) and are battling for the last 10ths of a second .... or is it?
NDgsx I would have to say IMHO the carcass design makes a bigger difference on how well the system is able to hold air vs whether N2 or air is being used. A better enclosed system will hold pressure longer than one that isn't. Then it comes down to the quality of the tire being used, I would think that is a bigger factor and not the fact that N2 and air is being used.
As I have said I'm only contributing to this discussion, not to say "you are wrong" and stroke my own ego, but so that all the EVO owners out there reading this thread can gather some scientific ideas from this thread and decide for themselves if it is worth it or not for their specific application.
Yes I do have a strong back ground in science and I do know what I am talking about. To me it isn't worth it and is more of a marketing gimmic ... I'm done with this thread.
Last edited by DaWorstPlaya; Jul 10, 2006 at 09:14 AM.
Jul 10, 2006, 02:26 PM
#42
You make it sound like the writer thinks that it should.
Can't you LISTEN that we are telling you it it actually does?
We are informing you from actual hands on experience, what Nitrogen is doing to our tires.
Actually to the thread starter (x838nwy). At this point we do not care what you think nitrogen won't do.
Question for you. How often you add air to your tires? Now go add nitrogen and let us know in 3 months.
Thanks
Can't you LISTEN that we are telling you it it actually does?
We are informing you from actual hands on experience, what Nitrogen is doing to our tires.
Actually to the thread starter (x838nwy). At this point we do not care what you think nitrogen won't do.
Question for you. How often you add air to your tires? Now go add nitrogen and let us know in 3 months.
Thanks
Last edited by supersupra; Jul 11, 2006 at 09:43 AM.
