...---not attempting to argue just posting an opinion as thats what you were asking for.....not sure I said that ... to correct push in the front we take away traction in the rear...ideally you need to compensate for the push in the front, as the tires are rolling over... with a rear bar. That keeps the chassis weight ( among other things) from moving forward causing the front end to plow..indeed if you went too far and stiffened the rear bar too much the rear end will come around... I did state in the first sentence of my post to try your idea out...I dont want you to eat crow..as you suggested...I am not attempting to prove you wrong....I just had what I considered a lot of body roll in my Evo and the rear bar straighted that up for the most part--I would assume the opposite to be true... so taking away bars would add to roll of the chassis--hence the big pig statement. You may like the results, I am not sure Iwould...but hey, I am open. Good luck on your endevors..Post your results/opinion...

 

Works for me ... But I have spent lots of time tweaking my Ohlins...

 

I believe you are heading in the right direction, however you are going to have to get the spring rates and shock valving right to make this work. It is obvious that the spring rates are going to have to be higher, and by how much nobody knows(maybe if you could find what top secret spring rates the cyber evo is running it'll give a ballpark). The shock valving is also as important in order to have the car behave correctly, no off the shelf coilovers as they will need to be custom matched to wathever spring rate you are gonna pick. I'm glad someone is stepping out the boundaries and is willing to try something that theorically should work . Good luck and keep us updated with your exprimentation and results.

 

I agree that I don't think that running a bigger rear bar is the answer you're looking for. I also think you might be looking at the front sway bar's job in the wrong light.

Regarding the front sway bar: As you corner, the inside front tire ends up at a junk angle because as the outside becomes more verticle through the roll, the inside rolls more toward the horizontal. You'll gain grip on the outside, but lose it on the inside.

This is where the front sway bar comes in. It transfers some of the rest of that remaining load off the inside front and onto the outside front, which obviously has the most grip during cornering. A single tire with a complete contact patch touching will make more grip than two partially contacting tires that are a bit more equally touching (they will never be 50% each in a corner because of g-forces that are applied during turning). This is why you see so many cars lock up the inside front wheel during cornering before any of the other wheels.

However, with the Evo you don't even want to get in a situation where you're truely lifting a front tire in a turn because of our AWD and the probability that it would cause all kinds of havoc on the drivetrain, including making the car unstable when the wheel touches back down. You'll have to find the compromise between maximum lateral grip and the ability to apply power while turning.

I think by removing the front sway bar completely you will be adding a great deal of imbalance to the car's setup. The coil springs and struts will now have to work a bit harder and it could become unstable and take a bit more fighting at the steering wheel when really pushed to the edge. I'd venture to say that the Cyber Evo is probably running a Motion suspension with remote resivoirors or something on that level in order to get away from sway bars completely. They definitely aren't doing it on the stock suspension.

 

If you think so, take a look at my pics from Nationals. That is with the stock swaybar and high spring rates. . .
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=227530

We have made several changes this year that should help eliminate some of that roll. . .

For the OP --
I believe Eric Stemler ran his car with no front sway bar and used EXTREMELY high spring rates (well over 1000#/in) if I remember correctly. If you are considering going bar-less you may want to see if he will share his findings with you. Since he isn't in an EVO anymore he may be willing to share r&d and setup info freely??

EVOlutionary

 

evolutionary...
Your pics look typical of an evo running about a 700 lb/in front spring with the front bar in. Take away the bar and run an 850-900 lb spring and I imagine body roll would be similar.

Of course in SM you can adjust the lower ball joint position to aid in keeping the roll center up and that should also allow you to run a marginally softer rate too.

 

Whiteline roll center kit will make a huge improvment to front roll stiffness.

Your front tire maybe lifting because of too much front rebound stiffness too.

Deleting the front bar on a FWD car is a quick ez way to gain front grip. But then you make it up with real stiff springs all the way around. Tunning the car with bars is the right way to go.

 

sounds crazy wonder if it works

 

If you live in a town with tarmac roads that are as smooth as glass I would recommend ditching the sway and running high spring rates. You will save on unspung weight (which is always good). I live in NYC. I need my sways.

 

good thread...

my current suspension setup is:
buddy club racing spec 7K front, 9K rear
white line front roll center kit

I'm having a hard time getting the car to rotate even when I set the rear a good bit tighter then the front.

I'm thinking of either do the mod to the front sway bar (drill holes) or possibly upgrading my rear sway bar.

thoughts?

 

Are you running the stock rear sway bar? If so, an upgraded rear would be my first choice. . .

EVOlutionary

 

a couple thoughts/questions about running much heavier spring rates in non-corner situations...

i would think braking g's would go down with firmer rates. any braking zone that wasn't glass smooth would be more susceptible to skipping across the high spots due to a less compliant suspension.
also under acceleration doesn't the weight transfer on to the rear tires give more grip? doesn't softer rates let more weight transfer?
maybe not as much of an issue with an awd car.

 

the back is very planted due to my higher rear spring rate... I'm worried that simply adding a bigger rear sway bar will give me a rear stiffness that has less traction and no better turn in. So I think my solution needs to be at the front of the car. thoughts?

how does rake factor into this? should I raise the back of my car a little.

image of my car mid corner in an off camber turn if that helps:

 

Spring rates do not affect how much load is transferred, the same amount of load will be transferred no matter what rates you are running. The only difference is how the car behaves when the transfer occurs. Stiffer springs transmit more of the load through the tires, chassis and other suspension components, while softer springs will take more of the load.

The only way to way to change the amount of load transferred is to physically change the distribution of load in the car. Any stiffening of the suspension components, springs or otherwise, is just going to affect the rate at which load is transferred.

 

^^^so the grip on acceleration wouldn't be affected but the braking scenario still holds?
i thought that as a car gets stiffer you get less roll(left/right or front/rear depending on enertia). isn't there a center line of any vehicle and the more roll the more of the vehicle ends up on one side of that center line?

i guess it's time to read some suspension books