Best track coilovers?
Jun 5, 2007, 01:13 PM
#17
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Raising the roll center increases roll stiffness. Its done within the suspension geometry by changing the angle of the control arm.
When lowering the car the control arm angle changes and the suspension geometry changes putting the roll center under the ground when you plot it. This is not good. The car will have a much greater tendancy to roll and over load outside tire, which will lose grip because its overloaded. With enough suspension compression, camber will go to positive, also contributes to loss of grip.
Some solve this by stiff springs and bars. But the best way is to fix the geometry problem first. So, increasing roll stiffness will keep the car flater through cornering keeping the inside tire doing some of the work. It also helps to keep the negative camber there to compensate for tire roll.
In terms of what you'll feel, it will be like adding a larger front sway bar WITHOUT the negatives of doing so.
I'll soon have this kit on my car and update this topic:
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=263315
When lowering the car the control arm angle changes and the suspension geometry changes putting the roll center under the ground when you plot it. This is not good. The car will have a much greater tendancy to roll and over load outside tire, which will lose grip because its overloaded. With enough suspension compression, camber will go to positive, also contributes to loss of grip.
Some solve this by stiff springs and bars. But the best way is to fix the geometry problem first. So, increasing roll stiffness will keep the car flater through cornering keeping the inside tire doing some of the work. It also helps to keep the negative camber there to compensate for tire roll.
In terms of what you'll feel, it will be like adding a larger front sway bar WITHOUT the negatives of doing so.
I'll soon have this kit on my car and update this topic:
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=263315
Jun 5, 2007, 01:19 PM
#18
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pternstrom,
Once you put the whiteline kits on, you'll get rid of the push and the car will still stay neutral.
Oh, and dont trail brake an evo. I too love to trail my Honda, but on an EVO it seems to kill the front tires. If you brake a tad earlier, the evo can car some great speed through the corner IF its settled and not standing on its nose from braking.
You'll love the cup tires. Next time try some Bridgestone REO1R's for a street tire.
Once you put the whiteline kits on, you'll get rid of the push and the car will still stay neutral.
Oh, and dont trail brake an evo. I too love to trail my Honda, but on an EVO it seems to kill the front tires. If you brake a tad earlier, the evo can car some great speed through the corner IF its settled and not standing on its nose from braking.
You'll love the cup tires. Next time try some Bridgestone REO1R's for a street tire.
Jun 6, 2007, 09:31 PM
#19
Raising the roll center increases roll stiffness. Its done within the suspension geometry by changing the angle of the control arm.
When lowering the car the control arm angle changes and the suspension geometry changes putting the roll center under the ground when you plot it. This is not good. The car will have a much greater tendancy to roll and over load outside tire, which will lose grip because its overloaded. With enough suspension compression, camber will go to positive, also contributes to loss of grip.
Some solve this by stiff springs and bars. But the best way is to fix the geometry problem first. So, increasing roll stiffness will keep the car flater through cornering keeping the inside tire doing some of the work. It also helps to keep the negative camber there to compensate for tire roll.
In terms of what you'll feel, it will be like adding a larger front sway bar WITHOUT the negatives of doing so.
I'll soon have this kit on my car and update this topic:
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=263315
When lowering the car the control arm angle changes and the suspension geometry changes putting the roll center under the ground when you plot it. This is not good. The car will have a much greater tendancy to roll and over load outside tire, which will lose grip because its overloaded. With enough suspension compression, camber will go to positive, also contributes to loss of grip.
Some solve this by stiff springs and bars. But the best way is to fix the geometry problem first. So, increasing roll stiffness will keep the car flater through cornering keeping the inside tire doing some of the work. It also helps to keep the negative camber there to compensate for tire roll.
In terms of what you'll feel, it will be like adding a larger front sway bar WITHOUT the negatives of doing so.
I'll soon have this kit on my car and update this topic:
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=263315
Jun 6, 2007, 10:00 PM
#20
Evolving Member
pternstrom,
Once you put the whiteline kits on, you'll get rid of the push and the car will still stay neutral.
Oh, and dont trail brake an evo. I too love to trail my Honda, but on an EVO it seems to kill the front tires. If you brake a tad earlier, the evo can car some great speed through the corner IF its settled and not standing on its nose from braking.
You'll love the cup tires. Next time try some Bridgestone REO1R's for a street tire.
Once you put the whiteline kits on, you'll get rid of the push and the car will still stay neutral.
Oh, and dont trail brake an evo. I too love to trail my Honda, but on an EVO it seems to kill the front tires. If you brake a tad earlier, the evo can car some great speed through the corner IF its settled and not standing on its nose from braking.
You'll love the cup tires. Next time try some Bridgestone REO1R's for a street tire.
Jun 6, 2007, 11:41 PM
#21
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With my current setup, vishnu/ohlins, stock swaybar, and Toyo RA1s tighter corners definitely require some trail braking to enter the corner properly. A good example is T14 at thunderhill www.thunderhill.com which is a tight corner leading onto the front straight. Without some trail braking, where i start to give some steering angle before completely releasing brake pressure, the car will just understeer through entire corner. With trail braking I am able to stay neutral and put power down much earlier. If anything trail braking makes tire wear more even as I am able to maintain more equal traction/weight on both the front and rear tires which is pretty much the definition of neutral handling. Otherwise my evo just plows through slow corners and actually makes front tire wear even worse.
See this video at the 1:50 mark. The example I have on video isn't perfect, I induced a tiny bit more rotation than I needed but is an example of trail braking inducing rotation and helping corner exit speed.
http://www.pureyang.com/misc/thill2007_03_11.mov (11.3MB)
In the end it does depend on driver style and conditions. But tighter corners generally beg for some trail braking.
Last edited by heeltoer; Jun 7, 2007 at 10:33 AM.
Jun 7, 2007, 12:59 PM
#23
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Ok, maybe "never" isnt the right word.
Yes, to over come a under steering situation, trailbraking can help. But the better way is to adjust the alignment or suspension. You do what you gotta do when you're in the car and some tracks at certain corners may call for it. But with a proper setup, the car should rotate upon turn in.
Think about it. The traction circle. If you are using even 10% of the tires traction for braking (or even simply keeping the weight transfered on the nose, ie trail braking) that only leaves 90% potential traction left for turning. Same goes for when you start to squeeze on the gas.
Trailing does work. But it does make the front tires do more work. More work, more heat. If its a slight understeer, Id try to take some rear neg camber out. Or add front grip.
The roll center kit will help to increase roll stiffness and keep a proper camber curve with a lowered vehicle. More roll stiffness and proper camber through corner = more grip. The car stays flatter and shares more of the job with the inside tire.
Yes, to over come a under steering situation, trailbraking can help. But the better way is to adjust the alignment or suspension. You do what you gotta do when you're in the car and some tracks at certain corners may call for it. But with a proper setup, the car should rotate upon turn in.
Think about it. The traction circle. If you are using even 10% of the tires traction for braking (or even simply keeping the weight transfered on the nose, ie trail braking) that only leaves 90% potential traction left for turning. Same goes for when you start to squeeze on the gas.
Trailing does work. But it does make the front tires do more work. More work, more heat. If its a slight understeer, Id try to take some rear neg camber out. Or add front grip.
The roll center kit will help to increase roll stiffness and keep a proper camber curve with a lowered vehicle. More roll stiffness and proper camber through corner = more grip. The car stays flatter and shares more of the job with the inside tire.
Jun 7, 2007, 01:30 PM
#24
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The roll center kit seems to be the universal solution for evo understeer. I ordered it a few weeks ago, waiting for delivery and getting it fitted. If this doesnt help..... ;-)
Jun 7, 2007, 02:31 PM
#25
Have not read most of the replies, but I do have some info for you. We use a modified version of the R/T ohlins now on the project evo. With revalving and different springs, you can stiffen them up as much as you need basically and they are a nice road/track setup. However, they are not the same as higher end setups and they are only one way adjustable, and ohlins apparantly have a narrow range of damper adjustment compared to others.
Depending on how much money you can spend you may want to jump up to the next level of clubsport coilover like Moton, JRZ, etc. Its a pretty big jump in price, but these are true track coilovers.
We are upgrading to JRZ Competition doubles on the project evo. They also have an RS and RS Pro which are track/street hybrids but still much better than the ohlin r/t. but still more expensive.
You can also go a step down/diseways and go to a custom KW V3 double adjustable like what Robi sells. Technically, these are not as "good" as the higher end brands, but the 2 ways adjustment and a custom valving/springs setup may still net you a better overal setup. The double adjustable is important to fine tuning your setup. tripples and quads are for the really serious guys.
JRZ is also developing a more reasonably priced street setup(or at least what they call street) that may be intersting and we will be testing soon.
Depending on how much money you can spend you may want to jump up to the next level of clubsport coilover like Moton, JRZ, etc. Its a pretty big jump in price, but these are true track coilovers.
We are upgrading to JRZ Competition doubles on the project evo. They also have an RS and RS Pro which are track/street hybrids but still much better than the ohlin r/t. but still more expensive.
You can also go a step down/diseways and go to a custom KW V3 double adjustable like what Robi sells. Technically, these are not as "good" as the higher end brands, but the 2 ways adjustment and a custom valving/springs setup may still net you a better overal setup. The double adjustable is important to fine tuning your setup. tripples and quads are for the really serious guys.
JRZ is also developing a more reasonably priced street setup(or at least what they call street) that may be intersting and we will be testing soon.
Jun 8, 2007, 08:29 AM
#27
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I agree. We use double adjustable Motons on our EP Prelude. But thats for national competition. It all depends on how far you want to go.
The main thing is, if you dont know what you're adjusting you cant really take advantage of the adjustability.
For a street/trackday or most TA cars, the robi spec package with the KW's has been a proven winner. Just check out his and Nils results.
I always say its not about the ingrediants, or the recipe, its the cook. If grandma gave you here recipe on your favorite dish, with the recipe, do you think when you cook it, it will taste the same? It may after several tries.
The "package" is a great way for most to bolt on a proven setup.
But there is no question, IMHO, that a moton is the best shock on the market. Used by almost every front running car in World Challenge that I know of. But these teams have the time to R&D and find the "recipe."
Keep in mind a set of motons for my Prelude were $5500 just for the shocks!!!! ANd I heard theyve gone up quite a bit since then.
The main thing is, if you dont know what you're adjusting you cant really take advantage of the adjustability.
For a street/trackday or most TA cars, the robi spec package with the KW's has been a proven winner. Just check out his and Nils results.
I always say its not about the ingrediants, or the recipe, its the cook. If grandma gave you here recipe on your favorite dish, with the recipe, do you think when you cook it, it will taste the same? It may after several tries.
The "package" is a great way for most to bolt on a proven setup.
But there is no question, IMHO, that a moton is the best shock on the market. Used by almost every front running car in World Challenge that I know of. But these teams have the time to R&D and find the "recipe."
Keep in mind a set of motons for my Prelude were $5500 just for the shocks!!!! ANd I heard theyve gone up quite a bit since then.
