DIY Adjustable Front Sway Bar
Sep 29, 2008, 04:34 PM
#19
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Well, the 3-4% numbers are assuming my calculations are correct (did anyone verify it?) and also recall that I assumed a 10mm bolt location change. Since I did not do the mod, I don't know what the actual distance between the original and new bolt hole is. If someone provides them, I can work out the actual numbers.
Anyway, compare it to some of the aftermarket bars, for example:
http://www.modacar.com/products/Mits...Rear+Sway.html
3 Position Rear +10%, +27%, +47% stiffer than stock
http://www.hptmotorsports.com/swift_...shi_evo_89.php
Sway Bar Diameter: 25mm Front Sway Bar Rate Increase over stock: 118%
Sway Bar Diameter: 23mm Rear Sway Bar Rate Increase over stock: 119%
I'll leave it to you to decide....
Anyway, compare it to some of the aftermarket bars, for example:
http://www.modacar.com/products/Mits...Rear+Sway.html
3 Position Rear +10%, +27%, +47% stiffer than stock
http://www.hptmotorsports.com/swift_...shi_evo_89.php
Sway Bar Diameter: 25mm Front Sway Bar Rate Increase over stock: 118%
Sway Bar Diameter: 23mm Rear Sway Bar Rate Increase over stock: 119%
I'll leave it to you to decide....
Last edited by xtnct; Sep 29, 2008 at 04:55 PM.
Sep 29, 2008, 04:51 PM
#20
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I forget where I read it, but somebody said this mod will make the front bar as stiff as a 25mm front sway bar. Most aftermarket FSB's are 25mm or 26mm, so we'll see how it feels. It may not be terribly noticable, but maybe the Whiteline endlinks will take up some of the OEM slop and help with stiffness 
Sep 29, 2008, 06:01 PM
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I forget where I read it, but somebody said this mod will make the front bar as stiff as a 25mm front sway bar. Most aftermarket FSB's are 25mm or 26mm, so we'll see how it feels. It may not be terribly noticable, but maybe the Whiteline endlinks will take up some of the OEM slop and help with stiffness
Assuming the same materials, construction and anchor points, use this chart to see an approximation of % stiffness increase by increasing the diameter.
http://www.northursalia.com/techdocs/sway/sway.html
Going from 24mm to 25mm yields about 18% stiffer.
To get 18% stiffer by changing the end link location, you'd have to move it by about 5cm on the front bar. I don't think this mod is that drastic.
Sep 29, 2008, 07:33 PM
#23
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Stock bars are 24mm-FRONT, 22mm-REAR, correct?
Assuming the same materials, construction and anchor points, use this chart to see an approximation of % stiffness increase by increasing the diameter.
http://www.northursalia.com/techdocs/sway/sway.html
Going from 24mm to 25mm yields about 18% stiffer.
To get 18% stiffer by changing the end link location, you'd have to move it by about 5cm on the front bar. I don't think this mod is that drastic.
Assuming the same materials, construction and anchor points, use this chart to see an approximation of % stiffness increase by increasing the diameter.
http://www.northursalia.com/techdocs/sway/sway.html
Going from 24mm to 25mm yields about 18% stiffer.
To get 18% stiffer by changing the end link location, you'd have to move it by about 5cm on the front bar. I don't think this mod is that drastic.
I'm not sure what calculation your using. Is it a "rule of thumb" type of calculation?
Sep 29, 2008, 08:20 PM
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Oct 1, 2008, 08:12 PM
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I didn't get to install any parts today. I went along with my dad to test drive an Evo X GSR and MR (Nice cars, didn't get to do many twisites, but pretty fun. I still prefer mine ) and then went to BMW to drive a 335Xi sedan (AWESOME car! Enough said!). Anyway, the WhiteLine RSB and front edlinks came in today. The Perrin rear links will be here shortly.
I have some new questions, but I didn't want to start a new thread. I may if I don't get enough responce in this one.
Anyway, I've been doing some searching about endlink preload. Are there any do's and don'ts concerning endlink preload? I was going to adjust the endlinks to the same length as the stock endlinks and stick with it. I could't find any info in my search results regarding preload.
As far as the OEM RSB brackets go, are they going to break on me? I hear many issues of RSB brackets breaking, but it seems to be the only ones breaking are the aftermarket Hotchkis brackets. I've heard of this happening, but wasn't sure if anybody had any trouble with the OEM brackets breaking a well.
Also, I've read to use lithium grease on the RSB bushings. Also that you can use teflon tape???? If that's true, cool. I have plenty of teflon tape. It'll same me a trip to the store for litium grease! I haven't looked closely in the packaging but maybe WhiteLine sent along a little sample of grease to use. That would be great. But just incase it doesn't, it'd be nice if the teflon tape trick worked
Hopfully I'll be putting everything back together tomorrow, but without the Perrin rear endlinks. I'll just throw those on when they get here.
Any sort of help is appreciated!
) and then went to BMW to drive a 335Xi sedan (AWESOME car! Enough said!). Anyway, the WhiteLine RSB and front edlinks came in today. The Perrin rear links will be here shortly. I have some new questions, but I didn't want to start a new thread. I may if I don't get enough responce in this one.
Anyway, I've been doing some searching about endlink preload. Are there any do's and don'ts concerning endlink preload? I was going to adjust the endlinks to the same length as the stock endlinks and stick with it. I could't find any info in my search results regarding preload.
As far as the OEM RSB brackets go, are they going to break on me? I hear many issues of RSB brackets breaking, but it seems to be the only ones breaking are the aftermarket Hotchkis brackets. I've heard of this happening, but wasn't sure if anybody had any trouble with the OEM brackets breaking a well.
Also, I've read to use lithium grease on the RSB bushings. Also that you can use teflon tape???? If that's true, cool. I have plenty of teflon tape. It'll same me a trip to the store for litium grease! I haven't looked closely in the packaging but maybe WhiteLine sent along a little sample of grease to use. That would be great. But just incase it doesn't, it'd be nice if the teflon tape trick worked
Hopfully I'll be putting everything back together tomorrow, but without the Perrin rear endlinks. I'll just throw those on when they get here.
Any sort of help is appreciated!
Last edited by MitsuJDM; Oct 1, 2008 at 08:17 PM.
Oct 2, 2008, 06:01 AM
#26
Anyway, I've been doing some searching about endlink preload. Are there any do's and don'ts concerning endlink preload? I was going to adjust the endlinks to the same length as the stock endlinks and stick with it. I could't find any info in my search results regarding preload.
As far as the OEM RSB brackets go, are they going to break on me? I hear many issues of RSB brackets breaking, but it seems to be the only ones breaking are the aftermarket Hotchkis brackets. I've heard of this happening, but wasn't sure if anybody had any trouble with the OEM brackets breaking a well.
Also, I've read to use lithium grease on the RSB bushings. Also that you can use teflon tape???? If that's true, cool. I have plenty of teflon tape. It'll same me a trip to the store for litium grease! I haven't looked closely in the packaging but maybe WhiteLine sent along a little sample of grease to use. That would be great. But just incase it doesn't, it'd be nice if the teflon tape trick worked
Oct 2, 2008, 06:30 AM
#27
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The only don't about end links is that you have to bolt them in with no preload (put the car on stands with the wheels off the ground). Adjusting them, length wise, should also be a cake as you want your ends to be as perpendicular to the rods as possible with no streching. You probably have to go longer than stock on the links because the upgraded stock bar and the aftermarket mounting holes are farther away.
The stockers should hold up fine.
Please, do yourself a favor and take that trip to the store.
The stockers should hold up fine.
Please, do yourself a favor and take that trip to the store.
But if not, I guess I'll have to go..
Oct 2, 2008, 06:08 PM
#28
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Yeah, the bar came with grease.
Anyway, I got the front together and went for a quick test drive. Body roll has been slightly reduced. Turn in feels excellent. However, I do feel a bit of understeer through the corner.
I came back home to put on the rear bar. The stock rear endlinks were so incredicbly siezed that I spent HOURS just trying to get them off. The nut on the back side of endlink kept rounding so I finally used Vice Grips and finally got them off with WAY too much effort. I ended up breaking them off. My Perrin end links have yet to arrive, SOOOO....
While I'm waiting for the rear endlinks, I went ahead and installed the rear bar. I also struggled with this thing. The stock bar slips in and out with minimal effort. The Whitline bar I needed to grind down the corners on the arms so they'd slip past the axels and then use a rubber mallet to beat the bar into place past the rear subframe... I've taken the stock bar on and off before and never had this issue. It was cake, but not this time.
Oh well. I'll just sit and wait for my Perrin endlinks. For now the rear sway bar is all bolted up and just kind of "floating" there without endlinks. It's not my daily driver so I probably won't drive the car until then.
After I get the rear endlinks, I'll report back with a better "review" of the sway bar combo.
Anyway, I got the front together and went for a quick test drive. Body roll has been slightly reduced. Turn in feels excellent. However, I do feel a bit of understeer through the corner.
I came back home to put on the rear bar. The stock rear endlinks were so incredicbly siezed that I spent HOURS just trying to get them off. The nut on the back side of endlink kept rounding so I finally used Vice Grips and finally got them off with WAY too much effort. I ended up breaking them off. My Perrin end links have yet to arrive, SOOOO....
While I'm waiting for the rear endlinks, I went ahead and installed the rear bar. I also struggled with this thing. The stock bar slips in and out with minimal effort. The Whitline bar I needed to grind down the corners on the arms so they'd slip past the axels and then use a rubber mallet to beat the bar into place past the rear subframe... I've taken the stock bar on and off before and never had this issue. It was cake, but not this time.
Oh well. I'll just sit and wait for my Perrin endlinks. For now the rear sway bar is all bolted up and just kind of "floating" there without endlinks. It's not my daily driver so I probably won't drive the car until then.
After I get the rear endlinks, I'll report back with a better "review" of the sway bar combo.
Last edited by MitsuJDM; Oct 2, 2008 at 06:10 PM.
Oct 3, 2008, 02:36 PM
#29
My thoughts on drilling the stock bar, "it's a bad idea, don't do it". You affect the structural integrity of the front bar and can introduce stress cracks that will eventually cause it to fail. While it may be "Ok" for daily driving and auto-x events, I would never trust it for the rigors of a track day. Alot of people who know what they are talking about recommend against it. But you've already done it, so its a moot point.
Playing with sway bars can get tricky as the rates have to be adjusted based on the spring rates you are planning to run or vice versa. As you know sway bar stiffness is based on the elastic property of the metal being used, the diameter of the material and the length of the arm from the axis of the pivot point. This is a inverse relationship. So you "could" make the stock bar 20% stiffer like a 25mm bar, you would have to drill ~20% closer to the pivot point. Given the approximate stock front sway bar rate anything less than 20% won't make a noticable difference and is a waste of time IMHO.
The front sway bars doesn't always cause understeer, as is the accepted norm. Infact on an EVO with stock suspension it has been known to create oversteer which goes against "commonly sense". Talk to any of the guys that setup their EVOs for AS in auto-x, they'll confirm this. As far as using the lithium grease is concerned, use generous amounts or else the polyeurathane bushing will most likely squeak. You can also use teflon tape to prevent squeaking, I've done it in the past.
The stock rear brackets/clips are plenty strong to hold aftermarket sway bars, they're just a *itch to pull apart as you found out. You definately want adjustable sway bar endlinks so as not to put any preload on the sway bar especially if you are running corner balanced coilovers. If you are running stock springs or ever some after market springs this is a non-issue and you'll most likely be able to run the stock endlinks without any danger of preload. In some rare cases, the front stock endlinks have been known to fail (most likely due to corrosion).
There are +ves and -ves to running stiffer sway bars and really depends on what you type of racing you are going to be doing, what type of tires you want to run, what spring rates you intend to run, etc.
Playing with sway bars can get tricky as the rates have to be adjusted based on the spring rates you are planning to run or vice versa. As you know sway bar stiffness is based on the elastic property of the metal being used, the diameter of the material and the length of the arm from the axis of the pivot point. This is a inverse relationship. So you "could" make the stock bar 20% stiffer like a 25mm bar, you would have to drill ~20% closer to the pivot point. Given the approximate stock front sway bar rate anything less than 20% won't make a noticable difference and is a waste of time IMHO.
The front sway bars doesn't always cause understeer, as is the accepted norm. Infact on an EVO with stock suspension it has been known to create oversteer which goes against "commonly sense". Talk to any of the guys that setup their EVOs for AS in auto-x, they'll confirm this. As far as using the lithium grease is concerned, use generous amounts or else the polyeurathane bushing will most likely squeak. You can also use teflon tape to prevent squeaking, I've done it in the past.
The stock rear brackets/clips are plenty strong to hold aftermarket sway bars, they're just a *itch to pull apart as you found out. You definately want adjustable sway bar endlinks so as not to put any preload on the sway bar especially if you are running corner balanced coilovers. If you are running stock springs or ever some after market springs this is a non-issue and you'll most likely be able to run the stock endlinks without any danger of preload. In some rare cases, the front stock endlinks have been known to fail (most likely due to corrosion).
There are +ves and -ves to running stiffer sway bars and really depends on what you type of racing you are going to be doing, what type of tires you want to run, what spring rates you intend to run, etc.
Last edited by DaWorstPlaya; Oct 3, 2008 at 02:38 PM.
Oct 3, 2008, 04:48 PM
#30
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My thoughts on drilling the stock bar, "it's a bad idea, don't do it". You affect the structural integrity of the front bar and can introduce stress cracks that will eventually cause it to fail. While it may be "Ok" for daily driving and auto-x events, I would never trust it for the rigors of a track day. Alot of people who know what they are talking about recommend against it. But you've already done it, so its a moot point.
Playing with sway bars can get tricky as the rates have to be adjusted based on the spring rates you are planning to run or vice versa. As you know sway bar stiffness is based on the elastic property of the metal being used, the diameter of the material and the length of the arm from the axis of the pivot point. This is a inverse relationship. So you "could" make the stock bar 20% stiffer like a 25mm bar, you would have to drill ~20% closer to the pivot point. Given the approximate stock front sway bar rate anything less than 20% won't make a noticable difference and is a waste of time IMHO.
The front sway bars doesn't always cause understeer, as is the accepted norm. Infact on an EVO with stock suspension it has been known to create oversteer which goes against "commonly sense". Talk to any of the guys that setup their EVOs for AS in auto-x, they'll confirm this. As far as using the lithium grease is concerned, use generous amounts or else the polyeurathane bushing will most likely squeak. You can also use teflon tape to prevent squeaking, I've done it in the past.
The stock rear brackets/clips are plenty strong to hold aftermarket sway bars, they're just a *itch to pull apart as you found out. You definately want adjustable sway bar endlinks so as not to put any preload on the sway bar especially if you are running corner balanced coilovers. If you are running stock springs or ever some after market springs this is a non-issue and you'll most likely be able to run the stock endlinks without any danger of preload. In some rare cases, the front stock endlinks have been known to fail (most likely due to corrosion).
There are +ves and -ves to running stiffer sway bars and really depends on what you type of racing you are going to be doing, what type of tires you want to run, what spring rates you intend to run, etc.
Playing with sway bars can get tricky as the rates have to be adjusted based on the spring rates you are planning to run or vice versa. As you know sway bar stiffness is based on the elastic property of the metal being used, the diameter of the material and the length of the arm from the axis of the pivot point. This is a inverse relationship. So you "could" make the stock bar 20% stiffer like a 25mm bar, you would have to drill ~20% closer to the pivot point. Given the approximate stock front sway bar rate anything less than 20% won't make a noticable difference and is a waste of time IMHO.
The front sway bars doesn't always cause understeer, as is the accepted norm. Infact on an EVO with stock suspension it has been known to create oversteer which goes against "commonly sense". Talk to any of the guys that setup their EVOs for AS in auto-x, they'll confirm this. As far as using the lithium grease is concerned, use generous amounts or else the polyeurathane bushing will most likely squeak. You can also use teflon tape to prevent squeaking, I've done it in the past.
The stock rear brackets/clips are plenty strong to hold aftermarket sway bars, they're just a *itch to pull apart as you found out. You definately want adjustable sway bar endlinks so as not to put any preload on the sway bar especially if you are running corner balanced coilovers. If you are running stock springs or ever some after market springs this is a non-issue and you'll most likely be able to run the stock endlinks without any danger of preload. In some rare cases, the front stock endlinks have been known to fail (most likely due to corrosion).
There are +ves and -ves to running stiffer sway bars and really depends on what you type of racing you are going to be doing, what type of tires you want to run, what spring rates you intend to run, etc.
As far as the structural integrity of the front bar goes... I don't know everything, but I think it'll be perfectly fine. Are there actually any cases of the bars failing due to DIY adjustable holes? I can definatly see why people would think this. After drlling those holes, I feel like that sway bar is damn near invincable
It was laughing in my face when I was drilling through it. It seems some people have this mod done who race with minimal complaints. Your point is VERY well taken though 
Then reason I went with this mod was to avoid FSB installation. And I told myself, if this mod doesn't work well, causes any part failure or just straight up sucks, I'll suck it up and install the front bar myself at work.When it comes to matching the spring rates, I'm hoping my sway bar descision will nicley match my Swift Sports. Right now, I'm not doing any hard competative racing. I'd like to go out and get some track time or possibly do hill climb events. If I ever do start being competative, I'd probably rethink my entire suspension. I think my "set-up" should suffice for street/some track use
Hopefully 