Sunday Suspension Discussion: What do you look for in a coilover?
Oct 27, 2008, 02:18 PM
#31
ZZYZX looks great - although I don't like the bling. That thing has more colors than a chameleon (and adds to the cost).
Seems like single adjustable for the ride height which would mean spring compression / decompression to lower height and affect travel and preload. Great idea on incorporating the needle bearings ontop the top hats - spring mounts, that will definitely keep noise down due to binding.
Dual Height Adjustables should be standard IMHO (w/ max travel in mind), even the cheapest of the cheap Taiwanese Coilovers and some Japanese ones (like Stance) comes with that standard.
Oh yeah, make the Camber Plates optional (BC Racing is even able to include Camber Plates at the prices they are selling their coilovers for) so that it can meet the price point - it's simply not needed for a majority of people. That eccentric bolt they have going on with the ZZYZX will give more than enough camber for most people's needs.
Seems like single adjustable for the ride height which would mean spring compression / decompression to lower height and affect travel and preload. Great idea on incorporating the needle bearings ontop the top hats - spring mounts, that will definitely keep noise down due to binding.
Dual Height Adjustables should be standard IMHO (w/ max travel in mind), even the cheapest of the cheap Taiwanese Coilovers and some Japanese ones (like Stance) comes with that standard.
Oh yeah, make the Camber Plates optional (BC Racing is even able to include Camber Plates at the prices they are selling their coilovers for) so that it can meet the price point - it's simply not needed for a majority of people. That eccentric bolt they have going on with the ZZYZX will give more than enough camber for most people's needs.
Last edited by funks; Oct 27, 2008 at 03:22 PM.
Oct 27, 2008, 06:24 PM
#32
Most good single adjustable coilovers have more bump travel then dual height adjustable coilovers at about 1 inch of drop. PLUS a ton more droop. JRZ, Moton, KW Race, etc....all do very well with single height adjustability.
- Andrew
Oct 27, 2008, 07:31 PM
#33
ZZYZX seems to have dual adjustables with plenty of droop
Last edited by funks; Oct 27, 2008 at 07:36 PM.
Oct 27, 2008, 08:14 PM
#35
I notice it more and more when I install coilovers on customer cars. The travel just isn't there and it isn't that hard to lift the wheels. I had great luck with my DMS coilovers that were single height adjustable. I could jack the car up a serious amount before the wheels ever left the floor.
Oct 27, 2008, 10:27 PM
#36
Taiwanese / Japanese Coilover manufacturer line of thought..
Q) How low can we make this thing go?
A) With the first thing in their mind in their mind is to shorten the shock body to make sure they get the most drop - lol.
Q) How do we make this cheaply and get it out to market quicker?
A) Why not re-use one of our other strut bodies for another platform and try to get it to fit this one.
I'm hoping one of them will finally see the light and differentiate themselves from the rest...
1) It's not a good idea to lower the car too much, suspension geometry will get out of whack, realisticly - we should drop the car no more than one inch.
2) Within said constraints (stock height at the upper limit, to -1 inch the lower limit), we should maximize travel so that the customers using our cars don't look like a 3-legged dog at the track.
3) We should not re-use one of our shock body from another platform and try to shoehorn it into this platform. Let's not try to make a round peg fit a square hole - lol. Yes, it means our time to market will take a hit.
With all that said, it probably won't be cheap (and the ricers will complain because these coils won't let them slam their cars) - lol. But if you think about it, somebody like Bor-Chuan should be able to offer it for a much better price due to their production capacity / tooling.
ZZYZX is able to offer a very high quality product for a decent price (considering it's a niche market) - imagine if he was able to get more orders in which will effectively lower the his manufacturing costs.
GTWorx, ever thought about partnering with ZZYZX Motorsports - lol? Seems like you guys have a similar passion (and it also seems both companies are well respected). Might be wrong but ZZYZX sounds like a one-man company, moreover - Steve sounds like he's the engineer type. It's hard to grow the business that way, the jack of all trades master of none approach in growing a business doesn't work. Sooner or later, delegation has to happen - one man simply cannot scale
Last edited by funks; Oct 27, 2008 at 10:52 PM.
Oct 28, 2008, 07:50 AM
#37
We have a little in the past, but we've both been extremely busy with our own projects. Steve is a very intelligent guy and I think his products are top notch, so it would be good company to be with. But we're moving facilities soon (announcement soon 
) and have been swamped with developing parts for the new STI.
- Andrew
) and have been swamped with developing parts for the new STI.- Andrew
Oct 28, 2008, 08:04 AM
#38
So if one were to forgo camber plates on the EM sports, would you just have stock rubber capped upper mounts?
Does this sacrifice performance?
How much negative camber can be attained with the lower eccentric bolts only? Also, isn't there some geometric advantage to being able to move both the top and bottom mounts of the damper, like bottom all the way out and them adjust via camber plates?
I should probably just ask Steve and the local guys who use them, but am curious what the rest of your opinions are on this.
Does this sacrifice performance?
How much negative camber can be attained with the lower eccentric bolts only? Also, isn't there some geometric advantage to being able to move both the top and bottom mounts of the damper, like bottom all the way out and them adjust via camber plates?
I should probably just ask Steve and the local guys who use them, but am curious what the rest of your opinions are on this.
Last edited by hokiruu; Oct 28, 2008 at 08:11 AM.
Oct 28, 2008, 10:13 AM
#39
So if one were to forgo camber plates on the EM sports, would you just have stock rubber capped upper mounts?
Does this sacrifice performance?
How much negative camber can be attained with the lower eccentric bolts only? Also, isn't there some geometric advantage to being able to move both the top and bottom mounts of the damper, like bottom all the way out and them adjust via camber plates?
I should probably just ask Steve and the local guys who use them, but am curious what the rest of your opinions are on this.
Does this sacrifice performance?
How much negative camber can be attained with the lower eccentric bolts only? Also, isn't there some geometric advantage to being able to move both the top and bottom mounts of the damper, like bottom all the way out and them adjust via camber plates?
I should probably just ask Steve and the local guys who use them, but am curious what the rest of your opinions are on this.
One on of the ZZYXZ pics, the guy had 7.2 degrees of negative camber (note, that's not an EVO, moreover - that's the due to the lobe on ear design + camber plates).
Will you ever really need that much? lol. If these camber adjustment lobe on ear design can give up to -2 degrees up front, then IMHO - that's more than adequate.
THe ZZYZX design also looks alot better than those cam bolts I've seen some people use in their cars (eq. Ingalls) which has a small diameter (with a cam lobe in the middle) bolt compared to the holes on the ears.
http://zzyzxmotorsports.com/pics/200...bolt-video.wmv
Originally Posted by Steve@ZZYZX
1) Adjustment via camber plates changes your roll center and KPI. This has an impact on the handling of your car, independent of the changes in camber. Whatever the case, you absolutely need to ensure that both camber plates are adjusted equally, or your roll center will be skewed to one side. This means your chassis will not react the same during right/left turns.
2) All fine camber adjustment should be done at the hub/ears using the eccentric bolt because of this. So say you adjusted your plates and equalized them and your camber came out to be -2.7 and -2.9. You equalize this 2/10th difference using the bolts, not the camber plates.
3) On the Evo, I'm well aware of how much camber plates can get you. As a result, I specifically located the upper "slot" in the ear so that it actually provides some "positive" adjustment as well. This will allow you to have full control over your roll center/KPI independent of your target static camber setting.
2) All fine camber adjustment should be done at the hub/ears using the eccentric bolt because of this. So say you adjusted your plates and equalized them and your camber came out to be -2.7 and -2.9. You equalize this 2/10th difference using the bolts, not the camber plates.
3) On the Evo, I'm well aware of how much camber plates can get you. As a result, I specifically located the upper "slot" in the ear so that it actually provides some "positive" adjustment as well. This will allow you to have full control over your roll center/KPI independent of your target static camber setting.
Last edited by funks; Oct 28, 2008 at 02:08 PM.
Oct 28, 2008, 10:28 AM
#40
Thanks for the reply Funks. That is significant adjustment from the eccentric bolts, and interesting info you posted from Zzyzx. I missed that on their site.
I am all too well aware of the vibration, harshness, and noise associated with camber plates/pillow ball upper mounts as I currently daily drive on 800-850lb springs with valving to match. I am willing to deal with the characteristics of upper mounts for daily driving if they are beneficial, as I will be attending 15-20 autocross and track events per season, but if there's not much performance to be gained and money to be saved, I guess there's no need, at least not right away.
I am all too well aware of the vibration, harshness, and noise associated with camber plates/pillow ball upper mounts as I currently daily drive on 800-850lb springs with valving to match. I am willing to deal with the characteristics of upper mounts for daily driving if they are beneficial, as I will be attending 15-20 autocross and track events per season, but if there's not much performance to be gained and money to be saved, I guess there's no need, at least not right away.
Oct 28, 2008, 02:20 PM
#41
I currently daily drive on 800-850lb springs with valving to match. I am willing to deal with the characteristics of upper mounts for daily driving if they are beneficial, as I will be attending 15-20 autocross and track events per season, but if there's not much performance to be gained and money to be saved, I guess there's no need, at least not right away.
Oct 28, 2008, 02:36 PM
#42
Rubber mounts with 800 lbs springs is not really a good idea....you might feel some squishy-ness from the tops there. Camber plates won't deflect and will have a more direct connection which you can feel in terms of response.
IMO you are fine with up to 400 lb springs front with stock tops if you don't need the camber, but the plates will be an improvement in response. Good quality plates won't be too harsh and will silent.
- Andrew
IMO you are fine with up to 400 lb springs front with stock tops if you don't need the camber, but the plates will be an improvement in response. Good quality plates won't be too harsh and will silent.
- Andrew
Oct 28, 2008, 03:02 PM
#43
You might want to take a look at the motorsport section here at EVOM and see how much camber people are dialing in normally for their AutoX events. Considering you take your to the track all the time - I'm sure the competitive autox'ers will be able to give you great advice on what works for them.
Rubber mounts with 800 lbs springs is not really a good idea....you might feel some squishy-ness from the tops there. Camber plates won't deflect and will have a more direct connection which you can feel in terms of response.
IMO you are fine with up to 400 lb springs front with stock tops if you don't need the camber, but the plates will be an improvement in response. Good quality plates won't be too harsh and will silent.
- Andrew
IMO you are fine with up to 400 lb springs front with stock tops if you don't need the camber, but the plates will be an improvement in response. Good quality plates won't be too harsh and will silent.
- Andrew
I don't intend to stay at 800lb, probably 700lb max., but 400 is too low. 450-500lb minimum, so it looks like plates may be worthwhile for me.
Sorry for hogging the thread regarding my own setup, but hopefully these are concerns others have as well.
Oct 28, 2008, 09:12 PM
#44
Taiwanese / Japanese Coilover manufacturer line of thought..
Q) How low can we make this thing go?
A) With the first thing in their mind in their mind is to shorten the shock body to make sure they get the most drop - lol.
Q) How do we make this cheaply and get it out to market quicker?
A) Why not re-use one of our other strut bodies for another platform and try to get it to fit this one.
I'm hoping one of them will finally see the light and differentiate themselves from the rest...
1) It's not a good idea to lower the car too much, suspension geometry will get out of whack, realisticly - we should drop the car no more than one inch.
2) Within said constraints (stock height at the upper limit, to -1 inch the lower limit), we should maximize travel so that the customers using our cars don't look like a 3-legged dog at the track.
3) We should not re-use one of our shock body from another platform and try to shoehorn it into this platform. Let's not try to make a round peg fit a square hole - lol. Yes, it means our time to market will take a hit.
With all that said, it probably won't be cheap (and the ricers will complain because these coils won't let them slam their cars) - lol. But if you think about it, somebody like Bor-Chuan should be able to offer it for a much better price due to their production capacity / tooling.
Q) How low can we make this thing go?
A) With the first thing in their mind in their mind is to shorten the shock body to make sure they get the most drop - lol.
Q) How do we make this cheaply and get it out to market quicker?
A) Why not re-use one of our other strut bodies for another platform and try to get it to fit this one.
I'm hoping one of them will finally see the light and differentiate themselves from the rest...
1) It's not a good idea to lower the car too much, suspension geometry will get out of whack, realisticly - we should drop the car no more than one inch.
2) Within said constraints (stock height at the upper limit, to -1 inch the lower limit), we should maximize travel so that the customers using our cars don't look like a 3-legged dog at the track.
3) We should not re-use one of our shock body from another platform and try to shoehorn it into this platform. Let's not try to make a round peg fit a square hole - lol. Yes, it means our time to market will take a hit.
With all that said, it probably won't be cheap (and the ricers will complain because these coils won't let them slam their cars) - lol. But if you think about it, somebody like Bor-Chuan should be able to offer it for a much better price due to their production capacity / tooling.
I understand that you are trying to convey a very, very broad message and I agree that some of what you say may apply to some companies in the industry, but you need to make that clear in your posts. Otherwise, you're coming across as another "read-it-somewhere-on-the-net-so-I'm-going-to-post-it-here-like-I-discovered-it-for-myself" kind of poster, and nobody should really takes those types of posts seriously.
Oct 28, 2008, 09:45 PM
#45
You're generalizing way too much, based on way too little information. Anyone reading your posts should most definitely take your words with a grain of salt and question your background and your knowledge of the industry.
I understand that you are trying to convey a very, very broad message and I agree that some of what you say may apply to some companies in the industry, but you need to make that clear in your posts. Otherwise, you're coming across as another "read-it-somewhere-on-the-net-so-I'm-going-to-post-it-here-like-I-discovered-it-for-myself" kind of poster, and nobody should really takes those types of posts seriously.
I understand that you are trying to convey a very, very broad message and I agree that some of what you say may apply to some companies in the industry, but you need to make that clear in your posts. Otherwise, you're coming across as another "read-it-somewhere-on-the-net-so-I'm-going-to-post-it-here-like-I-discovered-it-for-myself" kind of poster, and nobody should really takes those types of posts seriously.
With all that said, I believe you'll notice that I'm still entitled to my opinion even if you don't like it. I believe, the thread 's title is "what do you look for in a coilover?".
As for what I say apply to some in the industry, It's proven time and time again that most of the cheap Taiwanese / Japanese Coils are under damped, have crazy spring rates,and are designed for drop instead of performance.
As for the coilovers I've owned in the past, I had Tein Super Streets - which were damned stiff (got swayed by the ads in Sport Compat Car Mag) - couldn't even make it raise the car to stock height, and I also had Mopar Branded KW Variant 2's which made my car alot more enjoyable in the mountain rides. The Mopar engineers were smart enough to make a lower lockring that didn't allow you to drop the car more than 1.2 inches because they knew it would mess up the cars suspension geometry.
With all that said, I'm not looking for hardcore coilovers for Road Racing / AutoX only use - I'm looking for Coilovers that are the best bang of the buck without wasting my hard earned money and being solely designed for the slam look.
Opinions are like asses, everyone has one. But from my point of view, there are other people like me who want to get more enjoyment out of driving their car, but have families and can't really spend the time taking 20+ track days a year. Nevertheless, I want to give my feedback because somebody out there might actually take notice and make me open up my wallet.
You'll probably wondering, why not just buy GTWORX springs instead? One reason that I don't want springs is the fact that it drops the car. If you have an IX SE with the lip, you'll understand why. If I bought some of these made for slamming coilovers, I won't be able to raise my car to stock height - moreover, the suspension travel that I get with the stock bilsteins will get cut in half due to the short stroke most of these coilovers have.
Hope that makes it clear.
Last edited by funks; Oct 29, 2008 at 03:19 PM.