GTLocke13

iTrader: (1)

I can add some specific information to back up his generalization. If you go on Megan Racing's website, there is nothing remotely approaching a shock dyno of any of their dampers, but in the FAQ section, one of the questions listed is "How low can your coilovers make my car go?" To which they're answer is: too low to actually drive it (paraphrasing). It seems like, for this company at least, Funks is dead on.

My question is, do they have shock dynos and just don't publish them, or did they not even bother getting the shocks dynoed at all? Needless to say, you won't find any Megan parts on one of my cars.

funks

iTrader: (4)

If you open up a any Sport Compact related Car Magazine and look at the ads, you'll notice that those companies don't advertise how much stroke their coilovers has. But for some reason, there's always a car in the ad that's slammed to the ground - or a car going through the corner at really high speed (see below).

Then you have those coilover manufacturers who release coils without actually testing them for any length of time. You'll see them go the some forum, ask for a nearby member if he/she can lend their car for fitment and feedback (in other words - cheap advertising). Then the first thing the receipient does is go in the forums and tell everybody how pimp these coilovers are because *look at how much the drop I can get with this shiznit*

hokiruu

iTrader: (19)

I remember an issue of SCC from late spring/early summer this year in which they actually did dyno a bunch of different coilovers for the S2000. The tests were questionable (probably in the product's favor, or at least not to expose shortcomings more than necessary in order not to make their own advertisers look bad), and the results were STILL shoddy!

Andrew has proven to be honest and knowledgeable in spite of and far beyond being a vendor, so I just may look into the ASTs some more per his recommendation. Other members who have done their homework also seem to think very highly of them.

If I can't get what I'm looking for I would even consider trying to cannibalize my JICs to see if I can retrofit a damper of my choice into/on them or parts of them. A friend of mine was so extremely displeased with a certain companies coilovers that he looked into having Penske do just that, and they seemed to be willing to.

Noob4life

By definition, a generalization cannot be backed up, because it only takes one example to the contrary to put down the entire statement. While I hate the habit of labeling a product with it's country of origin as a way of hinting at it's qualities, I think we all know what Funk is talking about when he says "Japanese / Taiwanese" coilovers and I agree that the majority of those companies fall under his generalization to some degree.

But the mentality of stereotyping a product based on it's country of origin does NOT help the situation at all, and neither does making assumptions about how and why any company would choose to manufacture the way they do. For the people who only cared about going as low as possible for as cheap as possible, this just reinforces their thinking ("I want cheap, I want low, and I want JDM. Well, I've got plenty of choices!") For the people who are genuinely looking to learn more, how does a generalization like that help them?

It doesn't, because it doesn't get them asking questions, and it doesn't get them wondering what makes a coilover tick. It doesn't encourage them stop asking "how low can it go?" and doesn't get their mind off the topics of price and country of origin ("I want the JDM look"). All it does it over-simplify a very important purchase that demands much more research by the buyer.

There are companies out there that a just looking to make a buck, no doubt about it. And as long as there are people who are too lazy to do their homework when making such an expensive purchase, these companies will always be around. Want to help the people who want to learn, and the people who will appreciate a real product? 1. do your OWN research before offering advice, and 2. support the companies who've demonstrated a dedication to not only offering a quality product to the market, but who really KNOW their product, and are there to support the community with or without the potential of making a profit. There are very few of those companies around, and we all know why.

1. Where is the domestic office for XYZ Company, and how can I contact them?
If they were knowledgeable about and stood behind their products, and felt compelled to support the market, contact info would be readily available. If the info can't be found or they are hard to get a hold of, is that really a company you want to give your money to?

2. I've contacted a rep @ XYZ Company, and I've asked them specific and detailed questions about their product, the answers to which would provide me with adequate information to make an informed decision.
Knowing the right questions to ask is the difference between getting more than wanted, less than you wanted, and exactly what you wanted. If you ask the right questions, and this is again a company that is knowledgeable and supportive, you're in good shape whether or not you make a purchase from them. If you ask the right questions and get silence, then again is this really a company that you want to support by buying their products?

Helping people ask the right questions puts the onus on manufacturer's to improve their offerings, and will shed light on both the "good" companies and the "bad". Promoting generalities will not.

funks

iTrader: (4)

I agree with you that it's a sad state of affairs when people stereotype coilovers based on their country of origin (and I agree, i'm guilty). But it's something that's been around for a long time even before I started chiming in on this this thread, for example - try reading the SCC article hokiruu talked about above.

You'll notice phrases like

"Still, the only suspension shipped from Japan came out felling very un-JDM"

and

"KW's Clubsports set-up displayed a Euro-style ride"

and

"with suspension compliance and a comfortable ride that we weren't expecting from a JDM coilover equipped with such stiff springs and low ride height"..

hokiruu

iTrader: (19)

Everyone here is making valid points.
Noob4life is right about the fact that it's up to the individual to do their homework as much as possible. Not having dynos available makes this a little bit harder, but then again, how many people ask for them instead of reading/hearing someone else's experience, paying the $ and hoping for the best?
I would like to point out that there are people who have received both poor and good customer support from companies with manufacturing in Taiwan, Europe, and Japan. I have read accounts of people becoming frustrated with Ohlins' lack of response. I have read accounts by people who found themselves SOL and pretty much confirmed to be SOL or given the option to bend over and take it deep out of pocket by a Japanese company with US offices that offer full rebuilding service.
I have read accounts of people who were ecstatic when a company who re-brands BC Racing coilovers had their problematic units replaced completely, rather than repaired, and I am not saying that is a good thing.
You have people who own Motons that need to be rebuilt halfway through a season. Maybe that's just how truly top-end suspension works though, and Moton does provide the service to meet these requirements. THAT is the difference.
I have friends who thought they were getting a high quality Japanese product that was a tier-up from Taiwanese or Chinese BC-type suspension, and found themselves experiencing a failing product, disassembled them and found much to be desire but sent them out for service, and got them back with service improperly performed, and re-sent out, etc. for who knows how much vehicle downtime. Their price-point value appeal, supposed no frills performance was a false economy.

This bring to mind the expression: "The bitterness of an inferior product remains, long after the sweetness of a low price is forgotten." I would say the cliche'd "you get what you pay for" but sometimes you don't, you get less. Or sometimes you get something else, like customer service where you wish your performance was *cough bc racing*, or adjustments where you wish your valving was .

I think it is pretty safe to assume for our intents and purposes that most of the BC-type coilovers have not truly been shock dyno tested or thoroughly track tested before they were released. These are the kinds of R&D that contribute to the cost of a suspension, and nobody is simply eating this cost to sell you a $800 coilover because they are being nice.
Keep in mind the fact that there is markup for the importer/re-brander, plus the cost of material in that $800, and you don't have much left where the cost of R&D should be. It is likely that they are pretty much a one-size-fits-all design that uses generic valving that is inconsistent, and spring rates imitated from a slightly better Japanese company. The fact that just about every warranty case results in either complete replacement or denial also is very telling about the true quality of these dampers: it is cheaper and easier to replace and entire unit than to repair one in question. How much can they really be worth to begin with then?

I'm not an professional racer or engineer but I've owned and driven enough Japanese-branded and Japanese manufactured or Taiwanese manufactured coilovers vs. just a common Koni or Bilstein damper to confidently say that they ride, feel, and perform inferior. The exception is the upper end of Japanese suspension like the full-race Tein, Zeal, etc. units, and some people who have raced on them still say these $4-5k coilovers lack the travel and valving quality of US and European dampers. Even the few people I see win on Asian dampers in the US don't keep them for more than a season or two. Perhaps this is because there is little to noe service available for them after a season of use. Only a fool, or a very confident driver who just wants to be a guinea pig and/or make a point would buy them because they can afford something more expensive but actually think they are equal to or better than something more expensive that is proven.

In the meantime, watching what the people who are winning are doing, hearing what they have to say, and trying to soak up every bit of information from people like Dennis Grant seems to be one of the best options. And Dennis Grant says flat-out that he's never had an Asian damper on his shock dyno that was linear and consistent across its adjustments or between units. It's very likely that there are some, and he just hasn't tested them, but who wants to find out by buying them without a shock dyno for $3k+?

GTWORX.com

iTrader: (35)

I think the JDM companies will be "getting the message" soon....i'm sure they noticed the success KW has had in the last couple years.

We'll see if they can keep up.

I hate generalities too and i'm sure i've been guilty of them. I think i just did one . The bottom line is it benefits the end user much more to figure out exactly what they want, what each coilover offers, and why one is better then another. And understand that marketing materials, "sponsored" reviews, magazine hype, etc. can be misleading. So i do agree with Noob4life. I don't agree with everything Dennis Grant says, but he makes some good points and his skepticism is probably well placed. Maybe a little over the top, but skepticism is a good thing to have when you're spending a boatload of money on a very important and complicated system for your car.


- Andrew