GTWORX.com

iTrader: (35)

To get some discussion going, I thought I'd start a (hopefully) weekly series here on various topics. These aren't lectures, I don't think I'm qualified to give anyone a lecture on anything. I'm more looking for other people's ideas and opinions, and maybe presenting a few of my own....that are NOT gospel. Just things I've learned in the past 4 years.

I've got a few ideas in mind, but if anyone has any recommendations for a future topic please feel free to let me know!

Anyway, I'd like to keep the discussion open and friendly. I'm not gonna blast anyone for expressing their opinion. Also, it would be great if we could do it without any brand bias or "hype." I'll do my best on that part....and I'll try not to rant

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So.....the EVO community has seen a huge amount of coilover brands pop up in the last couple of years, some of them completely new brands and some big name brands expanding into the EVO market. Bottom line is there are probably twice as many options now then there were 3 or 4 years ago.

Yes some people want coilovers just to say they have coilovers, or to lower the car as much as possible, but I know there are some serious people on here that do a fair amount of research before dropping a big wad of cash on one of the most important systems on their car. Whether it's for a street driver, occasional auto-x or track day toy, or hardcore national level auto-x car or time attack beast, I'm really curious what features are most important for people.

So what do you look for?

Number of clicks of adjustment?
Spring rates?
Seperate compression and rebound adjustability (or 3 and 4 ways)?
Durability/rust protection?
Weight?
Time between rebuilds?
Separate ride height and preload adjustability?
Travel, shock dynos, other technical info?
Brand name?
Other people's recommendations?


From what i've seen, I think the last two play a large part...which can be good or bad. It's very difficult to quantify or put into words how a suspension "feels," especially for things like ride quality. And of course, roads vary across the US pretty dramatically, as do people's tolerance for pain. This is a difficulty I have when trying to describe ride quality over the phone to someone who may have just had back surgery.

Another thing I see is people may not have had experience with more then one coilover and just don't know what a "good" suspension feels like. So their recommendation is based on just the coilover they have and that's it. On the other hand, we do have some knowledgeable people on here with a lot of experience with different set-ups.

Then there's the problem with what i like to look at....strut travel and shock dynos. This info is not usually publicly available. Even from companies i plug from time to time. Yes I've seen some proprietary shock dynos or ones people have done themselves and that helps me make decisions on what brands to carry, but many of the top companies won't release them themselves in order to protect themselves. It's a tough call on their part and i understand why they don't. But i do wish more brands would release this info since it helps give an idea of how a coilover will ride and perform on the track. The shock dyno doesn't tell the whole story, but it definitely gives a good idea of what will happen and helps me decide on what suspensions to carry.

Plus, understanding shock dynos is not for everyone. I would encourage the more hardcore auto-x and time attack people to at least try and gain an understanding of whats going on with the suspension and have a basic idea of what's going on in a shock dyno.


Anyway, discuss.



- andrew


P.S. - Spring and strut people....your set-ups will be another topic.

slvrr

iTrader: (16)

Andrew I think this is a great idea!! I look forward to checking in on this thread often.. I think it goes beyond having coilovers just to say they have them. I think some of the younger guys might do this but not many. I think most people want to be able to control the drop and change the dampning or camber, mostly just to fit certain wheels and tires. Thats just my opinion of why SOME people like them. I have tried Bilstein Pss9 on my Evo 9. Nice suspension but not easily adjustable and I thought it was just a bit soft for the track but great for the street. I also had a set of JIC on the 9 as well. I really didn't care for these to be honest. I'm currently on my second Evo its an 8 I went with the Megan tracks, I test drove a set of KW,which were great for sure but at this time in my build I couldn't justify the Robi Spec KW's and that would be the only set I would want. I also rode in a Megan track Evo 9 and really liked the ride, they have the adjustability I needed the price was beyond right so I jumped on them. My stock suspension was blown and I wanted a coilover because I'm setting my car up for the track. I figure by the time I finish the rest of my suspension build and the rest of the car I will have had enough track time to have grown beyond the Megan's and into the Robi Spec's. Having the coilovers would also allow me to buy the right size wheels and tires the first time without having any issues. As far as what I want in a coilover personally. I want a easy adj.,camber plates,spring rates, and a ride that doesn't feel like a dump truck on the way to the track!!

Mercenary3

iTrader: (1)

I've been mulling over coilovers for a long time now and have never pulled the trigger. I've been looking for a set that would be great on the street and be competant on the track. That being said, I would be looking for a coilover with great durability and quality, a long time before rebuilds and excellent, repeatable damper curves. Adjustability is less important to me as long as the dampers and springs are well matched to my intended application. As far as damping curves go, they are great information, but novices will have a tough time interpreting them without reference curves (ie GSR, MR, etc). Same goes with ride quality. Saying a suspension rides well is one thing, but comparing it to OEM cars like an M3, 911, etc helps some people I think.

Smike

iTrader: (8)

I am one person that spent a lot of time (and money) in searching out the best suspension for the type of driving/racing I do. And yes, it does take a bit of effort to search and read about spring rates, weight, life, etc. No I ended up without coilovers, but a lot of what I read can be applied here. And I will argue that 90% of the people who think they need coil-overs just really need a properly setup strut/sway/spring car.

PS - Mercenary3, I was from MI until a few months ago. Check out mievo.net. And I have tracked my car on all the MI tracks. Search my screen name here for thread I have started - you might be surprised.

So what do I look for in a coil-over (or any susp)?

Number of clicks of adjustment?
A good c/o should not need 100 clicks. For the most part, that will end up confusing the owner with too many options. The clicks should be easy to count and do what they are ment to do though. So 12-24 range works for me. Enough to fine tune for the car/day and no too many to have too much play with.

Spring rates?
Huge for the car and purpose the car is ment for. 6-8k for a national level ax car? Not going to cut it. This is where I spent a lot of my own time figuring out what would work the best for my situation.

Seperate compression and rebound adjustability (or 3 and 4 ways)?
Again, if you know what these are doing to the car and how to use them in tuning the suspension a 2, 3, and 4 way can set you just a bit off from the pack.

Durability/rust protection?
Big one for me and the life of the suspension. I did not want to have to swap out my coil-overs every winter to save them from the salt. So, if you live in a winter zone this is something you should think about. Salt+co = bad.

Weight?
Another top area for me. What will the weight be. This is weight out at the corners of the car. It will effect the handling and overall performance. Lighter is better (90% of the time).

Time between rebuilds?
You just spent $2000 a year ago and you find out that you need a rebuilt that will cost $600 (hypothetically speaking). That would annoy the crap out of me, mainly because in my line of work (read poor ) That would hurt the racing funds. You want to get something that can take the abuse you need them to.

Separate ride height and preload adjustability?
To set the car up having these be adjustable could help you win. But this is maybe for 25% of the drivers out there. Who need their car to be setup above someone elses to get that win.

Travel, shock dynos, other technical info?
Agree, rarely seen. Travel you can get a idea from in how the springs are going to compress and work. But having the actual data is an awesome tool (when you can find it).

Brand name?
Hit and miss there. Some brands are only great because of their name. In reality, they perform for crap. Its like saying I have a pair of Nikes on, so I can run faster. Do the Nikes make to run faster - no, probably not.

Other people's recommendations?
Always good to see what the winners are running. Chances are its good. If they will tell you, ask! Most will share some tips/tricks with you on getting your car setup right. Look for cars/drivers that do what you do or drive like you do. They might have some nice incites. With that though, watch out for the intenet hype. G]If in doubt, go to the stats first.

wrcRS

I would say the ability to handle heat, springs matched to the damper, and consistency.

I think that if the springs are matched well with the damper that your ride quality will be fine, and consistency in the adjustments are extremely important.

Beyond that, I don't know that you can get more specific without offering multiple lines of suspension.

stockEvoIX

iTrader: (4)

I think it might be good to put price into the equation here, as well as targeted use. Someone who wants something for the street and a few autocrosses can get away with something much for cheaply than someone that autocrosses competitively and does track days.

slvrr, I have the non-Robi KW Variant 3's with RobiSpec spring rates and they are awesome. Trust me, you won't be disappointed with either the normal KWs or Robi's KWs as long as you swap the springs for stiffer ones.

Personally, the KWs were all I wanted to afford and I didn't think anything cheaper would give me the performance I was looking for. I'm quite happy with the setup

GTWORX.com

iTrader: (35)

Good points by all. Forgot about the coilovers that come with camber plates....that's definitely nice. Consistency is a big one too that i forgot.

One thing i'm surprised by is when people say they turn their coilovers up to full stiff (or close to it) at the track. For just about every coilover i've seen dynos of, even the coilovers i don't like, full stiff isn't really the best for the track.

Plus, full stiff can damage some coilovers and shouldn't really be used for that reason alone.

- Andrew

Noob4life

Consumers seem to really care about two big issues you've left out of your list - price, and origin of manufacture. Both of which also happen to be hugely misleading factors that people will put into their suspension purchase decision.

A low price does not always mean a low quality product, and a high price does not always mean a high quality product. A Japanese/German/American-based company does not always manufacture all of it's products in the country they're based out of, and country of manufacture usually has little bearing on how "good" the product is.

People can ask two relatively simple questions to get a good idea of what coilovers they are buying, and what sort of company they are dealing with:
1. How did you come up with the spring rates you have?
2. How did you come up with the valving you have?

The manufacturer's ability (or inability) to answer to these questions should be very telling. With those two answers in hand, you can see how the consumer can answer almost all other questions for him/herself, such as "Do I need these coilovers for my purposes?" I'd say 95% of the time, in the case of Evo owners, the answer is "No, but I want them". After enough time that want becomes a perceived need and that is when a company with questionable scruples can swoop in for an easy sell based on price and marketing fluff while skirting the technical questions altogether, by playing on consumer ignorance.

Clicks of adjustment - I'm not sure why this would be a factor for anyone seriously considering coilovers for the right reasons. I can see how simply having clicks could be a selling point, in terms of repeatability of adjustments, but the actual quantity of clicks is a non-issue IMO, next to the actual range of adjustment and the effectiveness of each setting. Give me 0 adjustability with a well-sorted damping curve over multiple clicks and crap valving any day of the week.

Spring rates - see above

Separate compression/rebound - I'd be willing to bet that for the 1 out of 30 people who have any clue what each setting will do for their car, this is hardly a factor at all. It's more a question of "Who's setup can I get cheaper, and from whom will I get better factory support?"

Time between rebuild - I'm not sure if asking "how often will I need to rebuild this shock?" will do the consumer any good, because it's too easy for the manufacturer to lie, and how would your average driver know when a shock needs a rebuild? Another non-issue for the high end stuff for obvious reasons, IMO.

Travel, shock dynos, other technical info - The actual ability of a company to provide and share specifics about their coilovers should be a big deal, and not so much the contents of the data. People can argue all day about why or why not to use aluminum for shock bodies, about why such and such dyno curve is desirable or not desirable, and so on and so on and so on. But if you haven't got the data to present, there will be no discussion and I think that is where the spotlight really needs to be put on manufacturers by the consumer. Why any company should feel the need to "protect" their shock dynos is beyond me. You can't copyright a dyno curve, and you can'y copy a shock based on just looking at a dyno curve. Anyone with a brain can find out where to get any of the materials commonly used in today's shocks, and you don't design a quality product by reverse-engineering the market leader's product. There are some sensitive issues that need to be protected, but IMO anyone who asks you those particular questions has got a different game in mind.

hokiruu

iTrader: (19)

Excellent topic Andrew.

Number of clicks of adjustment? The number itself is meaningless to me, especially compared to what each click actually does. I want something with as linear changes across the adjustments as possible, or at least consistent. For an overwhelming number of dampers on the market (especially Japanese), the adjustments are a joke. The first setting and 5 clicks from that setting aren't any different. The same adjustment on one corner is totally different than the same setting on another. Dennis Grant says he sees these units' adjustability not as a way to adjust the damper to where you want it, but more as a way to get such inconsistent dampers more consistent with each other! Heck, I'd rather have a damper with 3 or no adjustment at all if the damping is optimized or flexible enough to compensate for different sring rates.

Spring rates? This is important not just because I don't want to have to buy another set of springs right away, but because the coilovers are (hopefully) valved according to the spring rates used. It they aren't the spring rates I want, it's probably not valved for the spring rates I want to run either. and I definitely don't want to have to get an additional set of springs, AND a re-valve right away! I'd like to be able to get any spring rate I want, right along with initial purchase.

Seperate compression and rebound adjustability (or 3 and 4 ways)? I think for 99.5% of consumers, this is something that they themselves wouldn't know how to make the most of. However, they may wish to have suspension set up by someone who does. On the other hand, if a damper is designed appropriately for your use from the start, it may not make that much of a difference IMO.

Durability/rust protection? Very important, as I don't think I'll ever own a garage queen. On the contrary, I got my Evo because I have been snowboarding for 15 years and needed a year-'round, do-it-all race car, daily driver, shred-shuttle, grocery getter. While I *could* switch suspensions twice a year, I'd rather not have to, and would pay more for something that can endure winter driving.

Weight? Important, but as long as it's lighter than stock or close, I'm much more concerned with other things, and would never compromise anything else in favor of weight.

Time between rebuilds? I value this a lot. I realize that it depends on use and conditions, but it would really be a bummer to have a great performing suspension that was very high maintenance. If it were that good a suspension and needed rebuild that often, I'd probably just look into learning to service it myself

Separate ride height and preload adjustability? In the past I used to place a lot of emphasis on this, but after talking to some more experienced and knowledgeable people, don't think it's as a big a deal as I used to. For the cost of adding this feature though, I would gladly pay for it, and if all other features and price were equal between two units, might choose the one with independent height and preload.

Travel, shock dynos, other technical info? PRICELESS, and VERY under-valued, under-shared IMO. I too can see why companies are reluctant to share these, but as a consumer, I would really appreciate being able to view these. In fact, once again, given two coilovers that are considered "good", and over $2k, I might choose the one that I can see shock dynos for.

Brand name?
It matters, but only as far as everything that is associated with a name (product design, performance, quality, customer service, etc.)

Other people's recommendations?
I try to get as much info from other people as possible, to a point where I am probably annoying. BUT, I try to be very selective WHO I am asking and listening to. People who have tried different things for RACING use, have done their homework, and even have quantifiable results and data from it, that's who I look to for my info. A lot of the rest is just noise from people who can feel that their car handles different than stock, but don't know what to look for in suspension in handling. However from those who I do feel know what they are talking about, I take their advice to heart, and compare it to feedback from other similarly qualified people.

In a nutshell, what I am looking for is a set of coilovers that have smooth and consistent damping, consistent adjustments that actually do something useful, come with the spring rates I want and appropriate valving, come with camber plates, it would be nice but not necessary for them to have independent height and preload adjustment, and service to back them up in terms of rebuilds, replacement parts, and set-up advice/service... all for under or around $3k I am unsure if I need more than single adjustable dampers right now, as I have only owned single adjustables and for one the adjustments were stupid, and two, I don't think I would even know how to make full use of more adjustments. But if I had someone who could set double adjustables up for me and they felt doubles were necessary to get my car handling like magic, I'd consider them if the price was right.

GTWORX.com

iTrader: (35)

I'm not sure why i didn't put price in there. And honestly it seems to be one of the biggest things here since you can see people refusing to spend a couple hundred bucks more for a proven coilover, OR the flipside....you have the people with 6k to blow on their street car that will never auto-x or see a track and they MUST get Motons.

Weight for me is not as important for others, and like the above I wouldn't sacrifice anything just for lower weight. For a more dedicated car, maybe.

I haven't ranked my criteria just yet. I'll get there. For now i'm just glad people are responding!


- Andrew

GTWORX.com

iTrader: (35)

Agreed. When I started out in this business 4 years ago (that's nothing btw) there were products I didn't like, but i at least thought there was some sort of method behind them. Now i'm not so sure. The inability of so many suspension companies to produce something with sound reasoning behind their spring rates, valving, or any way of coherently communicating their whole design process/intentions....has left me bitter, skeptical, and maybe a little cranky. At this point, I assume incompetence until proven otherwise.

It sounds terrible and cocky as hell, but I know there are many many people out there that are much smarter then me making real suspensions. I don't know if i could be a damper engineer, but I'm happy to be able to have a good idea of what's going on.

Agreed. Unfortunately, 32 clicks are a must have for some people, along with pretty colors.


- Andrew

hokiruu

iTrader: (19)

Regarding weight, rust corrosion, etc. I would prefer a really robust over-built tank of a suspension that is tough, reliable, and a little heavier over a fragile, high maintenance, featherweight suspension. Of course for all-out time attack and other hardcore race cars, the latter makes sense. But for me and I think many others, this is simply not practical.

Noob4life

I've always said that an educated consumer is a legit company's best friend, and a fad company's worst enemy. More available information = more educated consumers = a more competitive market = more innovation and at the same time more choices for lower priced, higher quality products.

Really, time will weed out most of the fad companies, and the remaining ones who have the resources to withstand a "smartening up" of the market will be forced to improve on their own designs in order to stay competitive. But the longer consumers lay down and simply settle for what's being offered to them, the longer they will be taken advantage of.

BiFfMaN

iTrader: (3)

Durability was a big factor in my choice for a coilover....and for what they been though in the last two years has proven to me that they can take it. I think a strong durable coilover is good all forms of Road Racing.

Other people's recommendations I would think of this as more like looking for a Coilover that fits your needs, so thats why i think this is the second most important one. Why spend $6000 on Shocks that will only see your driveway to workplace everyday. You should be looking around getting info from people that use product X and learn a bit from their experience.

Now Spring Rate,Separate ride height ,preload adjustability and Travel, shock dynos, other technical info..thats one is too hard to Base your decision on. For one a Coilover worth its salt will allow you to pick the spring rate you want. Ride hight and preload should be adjustable also with a good coilover. As for the later (shock dyno's) Very Few companys offer that info and also it would only be based off a generic set-up...so really that would just point me back to Other people's recommendations

As for Clicks of Adjustment from my experiences i find myself dialing it in and leaving it....unless conditions change...but for the most of its time it stays close to where i set it. I agree if its valved correctly at the start then the Adjustabilty really becomes a moot point.

funks

iTrader: (4)

You are talking about KW coilovers then..