Added Cusco braces and now understeers....now what?
Jul 22, 2009, 01:50 PM
#16
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No, no, no! Are you kidding? Swapping around the springs is going to make the understeering even worse!
Just to keep this simple and not going into pages of detail we can all do this Mythbusters style. Now I'm sure all you guys have Gran Turismo or Forza or some other racing simulator that you can change suspension settings on right? Most of the simulators noadays represent very closely what happens in the real world.
- Ok, First race your car (preferably an Evo) around a twisty turny technical track. The more turns on the track your racing on the easier to see results on smaller changes to the car's setup. Race around the track for at least 20 laps and record your best time.
- Go into suspension settings and lower the spring rate, compression and anti roll on the front of the car (usually at the same rate aggressively but not to the limits). Do the opposite to the rear of the car. Stiffen up everything on the rear. Go out and try to achieve a best time with this setup and record.
- Now go back into suspension setup and stiffen up the spring rate, compression and anti roll on the front of the car (aggressively from the default stettings). Do the opposite to the rear of the car. lossen up everything on the rear of the car. Go out and try to achieve a best time with this setup and record.
Let me know what your results are.
Just to keep this simple and not going into pages of detail we can all do this Mythbusters style. Now I'm sure all you guys have Gran Turismo or Forza or some other racing simulator that you can change suspension settings on right? Most of the simulators noadays represent very closely what happens in the real world.
- Ok, First race your car (preferably an Evo) around a twisty turny technical track. The more turns on the track your racing on the easier to see results on smaller changes to the car's setup. Race around the track for at least 20 laps and record your best time.
- Go into suspension settings and lower the spring rate, compression and anti roll on the front of the car (usually at the same rate aggressively but not to the limits). Do the opposite to the rear of the car. Stiffen up everything on the rear. Go out and try to achieve a best time with this setup and record.
- Now go back into suspension setup and stiffen up the spring rate, compression and anti roll on the front of the car (aggressively from the default stettings). Do the opposite to the rear of the car. lossen up everything on the rear of the car. Go out and try to achieve a best time with this setup and record.
Let me know what your results are.
l8r)
Last edited by Ludikraut; Jul 22, 2009 at 01:55 PM.
Jul 22, 2009, 01:57 PM
#17
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No, no, no! Are you kidding? Swapping around the springs is going to make the understeering even worse!
Just to keep this simple and not going into pages of detail we can all do this Mythbusters style. Now I'm sure all you guys have Gran Turismo or Forza or some other racing simulator that you can change suspension settings on right? Most of the simulators noadays represent very closely what happens in the real world.
- Ok, First race your car (preferably an Evo) around a twisty turny technical track. The more turns on the track your racing on the easier to see results on smaller changes to the car's setup. Race around the track for at least 20 laps and record your best time.
- Go into suspension settings and lower the spring rate, compression and anti roll on the front of the car (usually at the same rate aggressively but not to the limits). Do the opposite to the rear of the car. Stiffen up everything on the rear. Go out and try to achieve a best time with this setup and record.
- Now go back into suspension setup and stiffen up the spring rate, compression and anti roll on the front of the car (aggressively from the default stettings). Do the opposite to the rear of the car. lossen up everything on the rear of the car. Go out and try to achieve a best time with this setup and record.
Let me know what your results are.
Just to keep this simple and not going into pages of detail we can all do this Mythbusters style. Now I'm sure all you guys have Gran Turismo or Forza or some other racing simulator that you can change suspension settings on right? Most of the simulators noadays represent very closely what happens in the real world.
- Ok, First race your car (preferably an Evo) around a twisty turny technical track. The more turns on the track your racing on the easier to see results on smaller changes to the car's setup. Race around the track for at least 20 laps and record your best time.
- Go into suspension settings and lower the spring rate, compression and anti roll on the front of the car (usually at the same rate aggressively but not to the limits). Do the opposite to the rear of the car. Stiffen up everything on the rear. Go out and try to achieve a best time with this setup and record.
- Now go back into suspension setup and stiffen up the spring rate, compression and anti roll on the front of the car (aggressively from the default stettings). Do the opposite to the rear of the car. lossen up everything on the rear of the car. Go out and try to achieve a best time with this setup and record.
Let me know what your results are.
+1 Ludikraut
Last edited by Pure EvoIX; Jul 22, 2009 at 02:00 PM.
Jul 22, 2009, 02:26 PM
#18
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No, no, no! Are you kidding? Swapping around the springs is going to make the understeering even worse!
Just to keep this simple and not going into pages of detail we can all do this Mythbusters style. Now I'm sure all you guys have Gran Turismo or Forza or some other racing simulator that you can change suspension settings on right? Most of the simulators noadays represent very closely what happens in the real world.
- Ok, First race your car (preferably an Evo) around a twisty turny technical track. The more turns on the track your racing on the easier to see results on smaller changes to the car's setup. Race around the track for at least 20 laps and record your best time.
- Go into suspension settings and lower the spring rate, compression and anti roll on the front of the car (usually at the same rate aggressively but not to the limits). Do the opposite to the rear of the car. Stiffen up everything on the rear. Go out and try to achieve a best time with this setup and record.
- Now go back into suspension setup and stiffen up the spring rate, compression and anti roll on the front of the car (aggressively from the default stettings). Do the opposite to the rear of the car. lossen up everything on the rear of the car. Go out and try to achieve a best time with this setup and record.
Let me know what your results are.
Just to keep this simple and not going into pages of detail we can all do this Mythbusters style. Now I'm sure all you guys have Gran Turismo or Forza or some other racing simulator that you can change suspension settings on right? Most of the simulators noadays represent very closely what happens in the real world.
- Ok, First race your car (preferably an Evo) around a twisty turny technical track. The more turns on the track your racing on the easier to see results on smaller changes to the car's setup. Race around the track for at least 20 laps and record your best time.
- Go into suspension settings and lower the spring rate, compression and anti roll on the front of the car (usually at the same rate aggressively but not to the limits). Do the opposite to the rear of the car. Stiffen up everything on the rear. Go out and try to achieve a best time with this setup and record.
- Now go back into suspension setup and stiffen up the spring rate, compression and anti roll on the front of the car (aggressively from the default stettings). Do the opposite to the rear of the car. lossen up everything on the rear of the car. Go out and try to achieve a best time with this setup and record.
Let me know what your results are.
HOLY ****!!!!!! WoW WHAT THE HELL??? AMAZING! HELP ME BABY JESUS HELP ME ALAH HELP ME TOM CRUISE!
Jul 23, 2009, 11:44 AM
#22
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Looking at this again I should have said putting on stiffer spring rates to the rear will decrease the whole potential of the chassis to run faster through a turn. You guys are just trying to solve the UNDERSTEER problem by balancing out the car with a stiffer spring rate to the rear. Yes, that will help. BUT! You can have the car turning quicker (higher speed through a turn without loosing grip) by concentration on the front by adding grip. You see what I am saying here? By stiffening the rear you are taking out grip of the rear and balance out the front which does not have much grip either. When I setup my cars I try to get the most out of the chassis by adding as much grip as possible as well as having a happy balance to it. People still don't understand how my dialed in Evo will beat Corvette Z06's and Porche GT3's with only 360hp to the wheels. Same thing with my POS 1972 Datsun 510.
That being said I'd try stiffer front springs and stiffer front anti rollbar to get those front tires to BITE into the corners. Use a temperature gun to see if heat is consistent through the width of the tires right after a run. If not then adjust with camber and tire pressures.
That being said I'd try stiffer front springs and stiffer front anti rollbar to get those front tires to BITE into the corners. Use a temperature gun to see if heat is consistent through the width of the tires right after a run. If not then adjust with camber and tire pressures.
Last edited by solng-V8; Jul 23, 2009 at 12:33 PM.
Jul 23, 2009, 03:37 PM
#23
You obviously have alot to learn about evo's there 
The motion ratio of the car really desires stiffer in the back than front. ANY winning evo that is raced has stiffer springs in the rear. That is not taking away traction. You might want to learn more about suspension dynamics...correlating setup advice from video games is the WORST advice I have ever heard...leave that for the Honda's
The motion ratio of the car really desires stiffer in the back than front. ANY winning evo that is raced has stiffer springs in the rear. That is not taking away traction. You might want to learn more about suspension dynamics...correlating setup advice from video games is the WORST advice I have ever heard...leave that for the Honda's
Jul 23, 2009, 03:52 PM
#24
No, no, no! Are you kidding? Swapping around the springs is going to make the understeering even worse!
Just to keep this simple and not going into pages of detail we can all do this Mythbusters style. Now I'm sure all you guys have Gran Turismo or Forza or some other racing simulator that you can change suspension settings on right? Most of the simulators noadays represent very closely what happens in the real world.
- Ok, First race your car (preferably an Evo) around a twisty turny technical track. The more turns on the track your racing on the easier to see results on smaller changes to the car's setup. Race around the track for at least 20 laps and record your best time.
- Go into suspension settings and lower the spring rate, compression and anti roll on the front of the car (usually at the same rate aggressively but not to the limits). Do the opposite to the rear of the car. Stiffen up everything on the rear. Go out and try to achieve a best time with this setup and record.
- Now go back into suspension setup and stiffen up the spring rate, compression and anti roll on the front of the car (aggressively from the default stettings). Do the opposite to the rear of the car. lossen up everything on the rear of the car. Go out and try to achieve a best time with this setup and record.
Let me know what your results are.
Just to keep this simple and not going into pages of detail we can all do this Mythbusters style. Now I'm sure all you guys have Gran Turismo or Forza or some other racing simulator that you can change suspension settings on right? Most of the simulators noadays represent very closely what happens in the real world.
- Ok, First race your car (preferably an Evo) around a twisty turny technical track. The more turns on the track your racing on the easier to see results on smaller changes to the car's setup. Race around the track for at least 20 laps and record your best time.
- Go into suspension settings and lower the spring rate, compression and anti roll on the front of the car (usually at the same rate aggressively but not to the limits). Do the opposite to the rear of the car. Stiffen up everything on the rear. Go out and try to achieve a best time with this setup and record.
- Now go back into suspension setup and stiffen up the spring rate, compression and anti roll on the front of the car (aggressively from the default stettings). Do the opposite to the rear of the car. lossen up everything on the rear of the car. Go out and try to achieve a best time with this setup and record.
Let me know what your results are.
.....omgoodness. how is this in the advanced setion.
12k/16k ownage on my Evo.
stock sway bars.
Much pain here.
Jul 23, 2009, 08:01 PM
#26
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Yes, I do understand suspension dynamics, very well actually, which is why I'm questioning yours. Yes, I understand the Evo IX chassis has a lower motion ratio in the rear and that would of course require a higher spring rate to do the same job. But, it does not overide the need for stiffer ones in the rear compared to the fronts. This has been proven from years of testing my Evo on the track. The only way I think this can be applied is if your front anti-sway bar is very stiff, rallying in the dirt or carrying your mother-in-law in the trunk. Maybe my Evo is much more different than everyone elses. I use sticky track tires. Maybe I throw my Evo into the turns harder. There are a million variables here. I've gone from 16k front/8k rear to 12k front/12k rear and those seem to be the limits for my car on both ends of the specrum. Any higher or lower and it will fly off the track! I've found 14k front/12k rear works on most tracks very well for me. Also, why do every one of these aftermarket companies who sell racing suspension kits have them very close to what settings I use? They do a mountain of testing before they release them to the public, are all of their results garbage too?
...and dbsears, I don't correlate using video games I correlate using simulators. It's a very good learning tool. F1, NASCAR and LeMans Engineers test with them all the time before applying it the their cars. The only difference is their simulators are specifically for their car and are a little more complicated. You should try it sometime and learn something...
toovira, go ahead and just change one thing at a time. Change one variable and keep all the others the same and see what the results are. Who knows, I might be wrong if you do swap out those spring rates but you will never know unless you try it!
...and dbsears, I don't correlate using video games I correlate using simulators. It's a very good learning tool. F1, NASCAR and LeMans Engineers test with them all the time before applying it the their cars. The only difference is their simulators are specifically for their car and are a little more complicated. You should try it sometime and learn something...
toovira, go ahead and just change one thing at a time. Change one variable and keep all the others the same and see what the results are. Who knows, I might be wrong if you do swap out those spring rates but you will never know unless you try it!
Jul 23, 2009, 08:34 PM
#27
See your reasoning is flawed...the reason the manufactures do that is their roads overseas are smoother than the US, they have electronic nannies overseas that we don't, and well they are mainstream and really don't care. Any custom setup coilover offers rates exactly opposite. I'm not talking Tein, Cusco, D2, Apexi or none of that cheap Taiwan junk. Think custom KWs, Moton, JRZ, Ohlins just to name a few. Nobody races off the shelf rates...if you raced so much I am sure you would know that 
Go look at any TA car, any national level autoX racer, and any shop that road races an evo that is successful and they will tell you they run stiffer rear rates. Your experience is quite dismal compared to whats been proven to win I hate to say.
You also quoted Forza and Gran Turismo. Real racing simulators are quite different...I have used them many times If you think those $50 games translate what happens in the real world well thats your call...
Not trying to start an argument here but you are pissing in the wind here with some of the people in this thread who actually have extensive racing experience.
Go look at any TA car, any national level autoX racer, and any shop that road races an evo that is successful and they will tell you they run stiffer rear rates. Your experience is quite dismal compared to whats been proven to win I hate to say.
You also quoted Forza and Gran Turismo. Real racing simulators are quite different...I have used them many times
If you think those $50 games translate what happens in the real world well thats your call...Not trying to start an argument here but you are pissing in the wind here with some of the people in this thread who actually have extensive racing experience.
Jul 23, 2009, 08:36 PM
#28
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Look, solng-V8, I'm sure that you feel that you have gotten a very good setup together for yourself. Now, if it's as good as you say, show us some results - winning TA, winning road racing series ... something. Ultimately the proof is in the pudding, not the talking. AFAIK most, if not all, of the top road-racing Evos run slightly higher rear spring rates than front spring rates ... so someone like yourself coming on here and touting a theory contrary to accepted practice is going to be met with some skepticism to say the least - especially when you start talking about comparing video game effects to real world setup.
l8r)
l8r)
Jul 23, 2009, 08:47 PM
#29
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That being said I'd try stiffer front springs and stiffer front anti rollbar to get those front tires to BITE into the corners. Use a temperature gun to see if heat is consistent through the width of the tires right after a run. If not then adjust with camber and tire pressures.
That being said I'd try stiffer front springs and stiffer front anti rollbar to get those front tires to BITE into the corners. Use a temperature gun to see if heat is consistent through the width of the tires right after a run. If not then adjust with camber and tire pressures.
l8r)
Jul 24, 2009, 06:26 AM
#30
The rear spring rate on the Evo does not read as the actual weight. The mount point is inboard - that will change the applied rate to that wheel. So a 8k spring would actually apply something on the order of 6.5k of force.
Thus, therefore, hence, we adjust our rates with more spring in the rear. And all of modify the rates companies put on the springs - KW, Ohlins, all good ones.
See:
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...ead-links.html
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...coilovers.html
Thus, therefore, hence, we adjust our rates with more spring in the rear. And all of modify the rates companies put on the springs - KW, Ohlins, all good ones.
See:
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...ead-links.html
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...coilovers.html
Last edited by Smike; Jul 24, 2009 at 04:52 PM.