Looking for input from Evo members with significant setup experience
Jun 14, 2010, 05:38 PM
#16
my 2 cents is behind gtworx, and dbsears what they say sounds familiar, and coilovers. As tight and as short as that track is I don't see much problem with lots of front camber. The front bar is too much work. I'm backed off a lot of camber with my whitline/and the PSS.
You might try the mid corner lift for a little more get around.
But then again I'm no ball of fire through 3a and 3b, which must be what that track is like.
I run the dtc 70 and love em but I love anything that doesn't leave transfer.
happy to hear you are making a run at that course.
You might try the mid corner lift for a little more get around.
But then again I'm no ball of fire through 3a and 3b, which must be what that track is like.
I run the dtc 70 and love em but I love anything that doesn't leave transfer.
happy to hear you are making a run at that course.
Last edited by nothere; Jun 14, 2010 at 05:43 PM.
Jun 14, 2010, 05:55 PM
#17
my 2 cents is behind gtworx, and dbsears what they say sounds familiar, and coilovers. As tight and as short as that track is I don't see much problem with lots of front camber. The front bar is too much work. I'm backed off a lot of camber with my whitline/and the PSS.
You might try the mid corner lift for a little more get around.
But then again I'm no ball of fire through 3a and 3b, which must be what that track is like.
I run the dtc 70 and love em but I love anything that doesn't leave transfer.
happy to hear you are making a run at that course.
You might try the mid corner lift for a little more get around.
But then again I'm no ball of fire through 3a and 3b, which must be what that track is like.
I run the dtc 70 and love em but I love anything that doesn't leave transfer.
happy to hear you are making a run at that course.
Bob Bundy (miata owner extraordinaire) a co-worker of mine is hoping to come out and do some laps in his car and give some pointers. Should be a riot!Time to keep reading RCVD.
Hopefully I can pick up that set of Skunk2 pro-c's Thank you all for your help...especially the NW guys
Last edited by R/TErnie; Jul 13, 2010 at 09:06 PM.
Jun 14, 2010, 06:59 PM
#18
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I've run at PGP in both the wet and dry and know pretty much all the top autoX guys in the northwest and can ball park most of their times. Obviously you have the power and weight to more then compete with the top runners. AutoX and PGP lapping days will help the skills develop and you will know the car better each time you go out.
For suspension... looks like you are already on the right track. I've got a pretty decent suspension/brakes that you can checkout if you want. NT01s, custom valved Ohlins DFVs, big camber, RCK, bushings, ST43 pads, brake cooling ducts, etc... Hit me up and I can go out with you guys for a PGP lapping day. I know dbsears keeps itching to get out too, so we can make it an Evo day
For suspension... looks like you are already on the right track. I've got a pretty decent suspension/brakes that you can checkout if you want. NT01s, custom valved Ohlins DFVs, big camber, RCK, bushings, ST43 pads, brake cooling ducts, etc... Hit me up and I can go out with you guys for a PGP lapping day. I know dbsears keeps itching to get out too, so we can make it an Evo day
Jun 14, 2010, 07:02 PM
#19
Originally Posted by R/TErnie
Maybe so, but I'm not entirely convinced you have a complete understanding of the vehicle dynamics based on a few of your comments.
Like I said, it will make your brain hurt. Its backwards from what you think. A bigger rear bar increases front grip. It allows more weight to transfer at the rear of the car, and thus less at the front of the car (for a given corner, for given car, at a given speed, etc. total weight transfer is the same). So a more even loading on the front tires as less weight has transferred to the outside tire. More evenly loaded tires = more grip. 1 tire with 1000 lbs of force on it does not provide as much grip as 2 tires, 1 with 700 lbs and 1 with 300 lbs.
The same is true flipped for a front bar, it increases rear grip the same way. However, due to the limited body roll it also provides, less dynamic camber loss/gain is a good thing and could provide you with more front grip and/or more overall grip. This plus the better turn in from less roll up front makes people happier with the car. Too big up front though and the front has transferred too much weight and the outside tire just can't deal with it and you understeer.
- Andrew
The same is true flipped for a front bar, it increases rear grip the same way. However, due to the limited body roll it also provides, less dynamic camber loss/gain is a good thing and could provide you with more front grip and/or more overall grip. This plus the better turn in from less roll up front makes people happier with the car. Too big up front though and the front has transferred too much weight and the outside tire just can't deal with it and you understeer.
- Andrew
Last edited by Smike; Jun 14, 2010 at 07:10 PM.
Jun 14, 2010, 07:43 PM
#20
Smike what you said...
I think what you miss is that by moving the grip foward you reduce grip in the rear... You're changing the balance of the car by reducing rear grip. If you gained grip in the front...where did it come from? You cannot create nor destroy energy... its simply transferred.
as gtworkx said himself,
You're transferring load from two rear tires to 1 rear tire... which doesn't provide as much grip. Therefore you reduced your rear grip in order to achieve vehicle balance.
Just to clarify... I am by no means knowledgeable about suspension... I'm attempting to understand the dynamics of it. Maybe this isn't the place for that, but I'll give it a shot. Please don't be discouraged by my unwillingness to shake my head violently and say yes yes yes!
Originally Posted by SMikevo
Too big of a RSB will increase front traction. Sound confusing? Well, its forcing the front tires to plant more. More planted - more traction, more understeer in the Evo. Now, add a FSB and you increase the rear lateral traction and a need thing grip - you will get more out of the both tires in a turn. "
as gtworkx said himself,
Originally Posted by GTWORX
More evenly loaded tires = more grip. 1 tire with 1000 lbs of force on it does not provide as much grip as 2 tires, 1 with 700 lbs and 1 with 300 lbs.
Just to clarify... I am by no means knowledgeable about suspension... I'm attempting to understand the dynamics of it. Maybe this isn't the place for that, but I'll give it a shot. Please don't be discouraged by my unwillingness to shake my head violently and say yes yes yes!
Last edited by R/TErnie; Jun 14, 2010 at 07:56 PM.
Jun 14, 2010, 07:52 PM
#21
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a wise man once told me, "have light hands, trade braking for steering wheel input" take that for what its worth. I was confused at first but that is the best advice i have ever gotten... This advice mite only be specific to my suspension setup since it is so advanced.... But take the advice in this thread, Smike seems to always know what he's talking about so listen at your discresion
Jun 14, 2010, 07:54 PM
#22
I've run at PGP in both the wet and dry and know pretty much all the top autoX guys in the northwest and can ball park most of their times. Obviously you have the power and weight to more then compete with the top runners. AutoX and PGP lapping days will help the skills develop and you will know the car better each time you go out.
For suspension... looks like you are already on the right track. I've got a pretty decent suspension/brakes that you can checkout if you want. NT01s, custom valved Ohlins DFVs, big camber, RCK, bushings, ST43 pads, brake cooling ducts, etc... Hit me up and I can go out with you guys for a PGP lapping day. I know dbsears keeps itching to get out too, so we can make it an Evo day
For suspension... looks like you are already on the right track. I've got a pretty decent suspension/brakes that you can checkout if you want. NT01s, custom valved Ohlins DFVs, big camber, RCK, bushings, ST43 pads, brake cooling ducts, etc... Hit me up and I can go out with you guys for a PGP lapping day. I know dbsears keeps itching to get out too, so we can make it an Evo day
Wednesday the 30th of June there is a lapping event in the afternoon 5:-8:30 or so
AND
Wednesday the 7th of July there is a full lapping day.
I think I'd be wise to run both events...
lmk if you guys are down. It'd be great to have someone there to show me the ropes!
Last edited by R/TErnie; Jun 14, 2010 at 07:57 PM.
Jun 14, 2010, 07:56 PM
#23
Originally Posted by R/TErnie
Just to clarify... I am by no means knowledgeable about suspension... I'm attempting to understand the dynamics of it. Maybe this isn't the place for that, but I'll give it a shot. Please don't be discouraged by my unwillingness to shake my head violently and say yes yes yes!
And no, as I read it, we say the same thing. What I mean by more planted is more even application. And by giving the front too much grip, you will make it handle a FWD car
(not literal, but for effect)Bottom line - car is out of whack.
If you wanted to keep it generally the same (parts wise), I would add the FSB or lower/return to stock/smaller RSB.
Really want to win - revamp the whole system. Proper coil-overs. R-comps -- soup to nuts.
Are there classes to this series? I have always found that there is always someone with more money, more R/D, more time in racing. Just how this sport works (and I hope to have all 3 of those too
).
Last edited by Smike; Jun 14, 2010 at 07:59 PM.
Jun 14, 2010, 08:10 PM
#24
No, as I read it, we say the same thing. What I mean by more planted is more even application. And by giving the front too much grip, you will make it handle a FWD car (not literal, but for effect)
Got it.
Bottom line - car is out of whack.
True... you're the third person to tell me that + my experience!
If you wanted to keep it generally the same (parts wise), I would add the FSB or lower/return to stock/smaller RSB.
meh
Really want to win - revamp the whole system. Proper coil-overs. R-comps -- soup to nuts.
soup to nuts... that's a new one. I like it.
Are there classes to this series? I have always found that there is always someone with more money, more R/D, more time in racing. Just how this sport works (and I hope to have all 3 of those too ).
(not literal, but for effect)Got it.
Bottom line - car is out of whack.
True... you're the third person to tell me that + my experience!
If you wanted to keep it generally the same (parts wise), I would add the FSB or lower/return to stock/smaller RSB.
meh
Really want to win - revamp the whole system. Proper coil-overs. R-comps -- soup to nuts.
soup to nuts... that's a new one. I like it.
Are there classes to this series? I have always found that there is always someone with more money, more R/D, more time in racing. Just how this sport works (and I hope to have all 3 of those too
)."have light hands, trade braking for steering wheel input"
Thank you I'll definitely remember that.
Jun 14, 2010, 08:27 PM
#26
I think I posted it a few posts back,
I picked up a set of Hoosier 285/30/18 R6's
Hawk DTC 60 pads for the front
ATE Super blue fluid
new valve cover gasket
and I'm hoping for those Skunk2 Monotube Coilovers. should know by tomorrow.
I picked up a set of Hoosier 285/30/18 R6's
Hawk DTC 60 pads for the front
ATE Super blue fluid
new valve cover gasket
and I'm hoping for those Skunk2 Monotube Coilovers.
should know by tomorrow.
Jun 14, 2010, 08:31 PM
#27
Did you blow the gasket? I cracked my valve cover after a track day with my Evo. otter and I were noticed an oil leak, thought it was the gasket. But there was a hair-line crack across the backside. (Its now a very expensive wall clock).
So, while its off, look closely for cracks.
Jun 14, 2010, 08:38 PM
#28
I redid the PCV setup and used a Peterson catch can that I had left over from a Dry Sump system I setup for a friend...
The catch can wasn't meant to be used as I used it and it ended up essentially capping the valve cover. It pushed the valve cover gasket out right above the exhaust cam gear half moon... and the cam gear wiped it away. I started smoking on my qualifying lap... pulled in and there was oil everywhere including in my timing belt cover. I pulled the vc and found the 1.5" of missing gasket. I took a piece of rubber hose cut it a few times and then RTV'd it in place. The fixed worked great and I got it done in time for my co-driver to make his first timed session. During the ordeal Scott missed his qualifying and I missed my first timed session.
I ended up pulling the AN lines off and running them into some rags (to not oil down the track) Time for catchcan setup v2
Of course I didn't see any issues with the setup while putting 300 miles on the car and street tuning it before the event...had to break RIGHT then.
The catch can wasn't meant to be used as I used it and it ended up essentially capping the valve cover. It pushed the valve cover gasket out right above the exhaust cam gear half moon... and the cam gear wiped it away. I started smoking on my qualifying lap... pulled in and there was oil everywhere including in my timing belt cover. I pulled the vc and found the 1.5" of missing gasket. I took a piece of rubber hose cut it a few times and then RTV'd it in place. The fixed worked great and I got it done in time for my co-driver to make his first timed session. During the ordeal Scott missed his qualifying and I missed my first timed session.
I ended up pulling the AN lines off and running them into some rags (to not oil down the track) Time for catchcan setup v2
Of course I didn't see any issues with the setup while putting 300 miles on the car and street tuning it before the event...had to break RIGHT then.
Jun 14, 2010, 11:55 PM
#30
Read your post last night but delayed commenting because I wasn't sure if coilovers were allowed for your race. Chances are pretty good that your terminal understeer is due to the outside front suspension bottoming out. If coilovers are allowed, then don't waste your time with springs or sway bars. Coilovers will return far more on your investment. Suggest you talk to GTWorx about their new budget coilover. Bushings are helpful too. Preload, damping, alignment, and tire pressure are all good tools to tune response.