How do I stop tripodding/3 wheeling at autox?
Aug 28, 2011, 09:33 PM
#34
Don't come here for advice if you're working with John. Just go deal with him. And when you're done dealing with John... you can come here and learn it all for yourself.
But don't come here asking advice from us when you're getting help from John. He will not be amused.
And to answer your original question. Lower your c.g. & increase rear droop. Until then you're going to tripod.
But don't come here asking advice from us when you're getting help from John. He will not be amused.
And to answer your original question. Lower your c.g. & increase rear droop. Until then you're going to tripod.
Aug 28, 2011, 09:37 PM
#35
Ok, i'll chime in a little bit here. I have a few years of autox under my belt and a couple years of tracking.
I have the same new Ohlin R&T's and have 0 rear wheel lift. I run 10k/12k front/rear rates, a barely stiffer than stock Cusco rear swaybar on the middle setting and the stock front bar. I used to run 12k/16k PSS9's with a rear bar on the middle setting, and still no rear lift.
Here's what I recommend you do. Please note that I have no idea what John does to Ohlins (rates, etc.) or what his plans are for Evos, so take my words with a grain of salt - Know your rates!
If your Ohlins are the standard R&T DFV Rates: Ditch the front bar and go back to stock. You understeer like crazy w/ the stock rear bar because the stiffer front bar increases rear inside wheel grip, and grip is something an Evo doesn't have any lack of. With the stock front bar, you will have more effective rear-rotation through corners, and this will soften up your car a little as well, which will help the rear lift situation. Additionally, I'd put back on the stock rear bar as well and see how the car handles. If you want a bit more rotation, you can always toe-out your rear wheels (a bit more challenging in slaloms though).
Swaybars are a last-ditch effort to get the car to behave consistently in a way you like to drive. Most people who autox aren't at the competitive level yet to know enough about their driving and/or their car to start changing out sway bars (I mean this respectfully). Your Ohlins are top-notch coils. They're not the problem.
Another thing you can do - the Ohlin R&T's come with 10k front 8k rear springs. For competition, i'd go stiffer (As I said before I run 10k/12k, but ideally i'll run 12k/14k), but you can start by swapping the springs front-to-back so they are 8k front 10k rear. They are the same coil width and coil height all around. This will also help by letting the front of your car travel a bit more and let the rear do what it's supposed to.
Side note: Do some reading/searching on the reason for higher rates in the rear - It's an Evo thing. The short version: The reason for the higher rate in the rear is due to multi-link rear setup having a lower wheel/motion ratio than the front strut setup (1 vs. ~.65 I think?). The higher rate makes up for the lower rear wheel/shock travel and creates a setup more poised for navigating cone-filled parking lots and race tracks.
I have the same new Ohlin R&T's and have 0 rear wheel lift. I run 10k/12k front/rear rates, a barely stiffer than stock Cusco rear swaybar on the middle setting and the stock front bar. I used to run 12k/16k PSS9's with a rear bar on the middle setting, and still no rear lift.
Here's what I recommend you do. Please note that I have no idea what John does to Ohlins (rates, etc.) or what his plans are for Evos, so take my words with a grain of salt - Know your rates!
If your Ohlins are the standard R&T DFV Rates: Ditch the front bar and go back to stock. You understeer like crazy w/ the stock rear bar because the stiffer front bar increases rear inside wheel grip, and grip is something an Evo doesn't have any lack of. With the stock front bar, you will have more effective rear-rotation through corners, and this will soften up your car a little as well, which will help the rear lift situation. Additionally, I'd put back on the stock rear bar as well and see how the car handles. If you want a bit more rotation, you can always toe-out your rear wheels (a bit more challenging in slaloms though).
Swaybars are a last-ditch effort to get the car to behave consistently in a way you like to drive. Most people who autox aren't at the competitive level yet to know enough about their driving and/or their car to start changing out sway bars (I mean this respectfully). Your Ohlins are top-notch coils. They're not the problem.
Another thing you can do - the Ohlin R&T's come with 10k front 8k rear springs. For competition, i'd go stiffer (As I said before I run 10k/12k, but ideally i'll run 12k/14k), but you can start by swapping the springs front-to-back so they are 8k front 10k rear. They are the same coil width and coil height all around. This will also help by letting the front of your car travel a bit more and let the rear do what it's supposed to.
Side note: Do some reading/searching on the reason for higher rates in the rear - It's an Evo thing. The short version: The reason for the higher rate in the rear is due to multi-link rear setup having a lower wheel/motion ratio than the front strut setup (1 vs. ~.65 I think?). The higher rate makes up for the lower rear wheel/shock travel and creates a setup more poised for navigating cone-filled parking lots and race tracks.
Last edited by Solo II Evo; Aug 28, 2011 at 09:40 PM.
Aug 28, 2011, 10:09 PM
#36
Don't come here for advice if you're working with John. Just go deal with him. And when you're done dealing with John... you can come here and learn it all for yourself.
But don't come here asking advice from us when you're getting help from John. He will not be amused.
And to answer your original question. Lower your c.g. & increase rear droop. Until then you're going to tripod.
But don't come here asking advice from us when you're getting help from John. He will not be amused.
And to answer your original question. Lower your c.g. & increase rear droop. Until then you're going to tripod.
This is not a diss on John, his products, or his services. I have been MORE than impressed by John and his staff. They have all been kick *** in anything i have needed or wanted.
This is my 2nd set of Muellerized coils. (first set was for old evo i sold)
I am a fan of John, his shop, his employees, his service, etc. I just know he is busy and i respect his time, so i try to not bother him a whole lot.
I bought my coils from John. i didnt buy any of the other parts that are on the car from him, so again, because of that, i try to respect his time and not ask him questions about something he didnt sell.
hence why i came and made this post.
i have been trying to "figure this out for myself" for awhile. im not new to cars nor evo's. I dont have a massive budget to just buy and try things.
but i do appreciate your concern regarding the subject.
thanks for the advise!
Aug 28, 2011, 10:29 PM
#39
My buddy graduated in may and worked on the car. They are going hybrid so it turned into a 2 year project, he had to put in all of the work and didnt get to do the comp.
I did the sae mini Baja at BSU a few years ago, we didn't have the $$$ for the fsae
To the op, have you done the rear diff mod yet?
I did the sae mini Baja at BSU a few years ago, we didn't have the $$$ for the fsae
To the op, have you done the rear diff mod yet?
Aug 29, 2011, 07:56 AM
#41
I havent done the rear diff mod yet. that will be next i think.
Meathooker, not sure if you realize or not.. this is Pugh.
thought you were coming out to the event this weekend?!
Also, on a seperate note. i chorded one of my 275's this weekend.. should i stay with 275's, or get 245's maybe 255's instead because im only on a 9.5" wheel.
thoughts?
Meathooker, not sure if you realize or not.. this is Pugh.
thought you were coming out to the event this weekend?!
Also, on a seperate note. i chorded one of my 275's this weekend.. should i stay with 275's, or get 245's maybe 255's instead because im only on a 9.5" wheel.
thoughts?
Aug 29, 2011, 07:57 AM
#42
I have to argue against a few things you said.
Are you on street tires? The OP is on slicks which will make a car that doesn't normally lift, lift. All cars will lift a tire given enough cornering forces, Ive even gotten a buddies suby up on two wheels at an autocross.
No, no, no! The front bar is helping keep the inside rear on the ground by reducing the roll about the axis front the inside front and outside rear helping keep the inside rear down. A softer front bar will cause more front dive, more inside rear lift, and more camber loss. All netting slower times if you are on sticky enough tires.
I agree though, put the stock rear on. The rear bar is already as stiff as it needs to be.
Rotation is, IMO, completely miss-understood. People seem to think they want a car that will when understeering be able to throttle oversteer to correct. If the car did this it would be terrible to drive and completely unstable everywhere else. If you want oversteer/rotation, you need to set the car up for it before you've lost front grip not after. Once you've entered into an understeering situation you need to correct that first, get front grip, then continue.
Evo's being a front heavy car with a square wheel setup will almost always understeer at the limit steady state. But you can use rear damping and for corner entry rotation and a stiff rear diff for exit rotation.
They arent really a "last-ditch effort", on a stock bodied car you need to control the roll. If you ran spring rates high enough to do all the work you would always be loosing grip any time the car even saw a bump. Springs and Sway bars need to be dialed in to work together. I prefer the springs by NF and sway bars to balance method after trying dozens of combinations on many cars.
Definitely agree here, Ive ran the 8k/10k setup with whiteline front and Hotchkiss rear bar. It works pretty good on smaller tires. Though sticky tires will still create a lot of roll and youll need plenty of camber to compensate.
12k/16k works great but you will have very little rear droop that you may or may not have to come up with a solution for.
I have the same new Ohlin R&T's and have 0 rear wheel lift. I run 10k/12k front/rear rates, a barely stiffer than stock Cusco rear swaybar on the middle setting and the stock front bar. I used to run 12k/16k PSS9's with a rear bar on the middle setting, and still no rear lift.
If your Ohlins are the standard R&T DFV Rates: Ditch the front bar and go back to stock. You understeer like crazy w/ the stock rear bar because the stiffer front bar increases rear inside wheel grip, and grip is something an Evo doesn't have any lack of. With the stock front bar, you will have more effective rear-rotation through corners, and this will soften up your car a little as well, which will help the rear lift situation. Additionally, I'd put back on the stock rear bar as well and see how the car handles. If you want a bit more rotation, you can always toe-out your rear wheels (a bit more challenging in slaloms though).
I agree though, put the stock rear on. The rear bar is already as stiff as it needs to be.
Rotation is, IMO, completely miss-understood. People seem to think they want a car that will when understeering be able to throttle oversteer to correct. If the car did this it would be terrible to drive and completely unstable everywhere else. If you want oversteer/rotation, you need to set the car up for it before you've lost front grip not after. Once you've entered into an understeering situation you need to correct that first, get front grip, then continue.
Evo's being a front heavy car with a square wheel setup will almost always understeer at the limit steady state. But you can use rear damping and for corner entry rotation and a stiff rear diff for exit rotation.
Swaybars are a last-ditch effort to get the car to behave consistently in a way you like to drive. Most people who autox aren't at the competitive level yet to know enough about their driving and/or their car to start changing out sway bars (I mean this respectfully). Your Ohlins are top-notch coils. They're not the problem.
Another thing you can do - the Ohlin R&T's come with 10k front 8k rear springs. For competition, i'd go stiffer (As I said before I run 10k/12k, but ideally i'll run 12k/14k), but you can start by swapping the springs front-to-back so they are 8k front 10k rear. They are the same coil width and coil height all around. This will also help by letting the front of your car travel a bit more and let the rear do what it's supposed to.
12k/16k works great but you will have very little rear droop that you may or may not have to come up with a solution for.
Aug 29, 2011, 08:41 AM
#43
I havent done the rear diff mod yet. that will be next i think.
Meathooker, not sure if you realize or not.. this is Pugh.
thought you were coming out to the event this weekend?!
Also, on a seperate note. i chorded one of my 275's this weekend.. should i stay with 275's, or get 245's maybe 255's instead because im only on a 9.5" wheel.
thoughts?
Meathooker, not sure if you realize or not.. this is Pugh.
thought you were coming out to the event this weekend?!
Also, on a seperate note. i chorded one of my 275's this weekend.. should i stay with 275's, or get 245's maybe 255's instead because im only on a 9.5" wheel.
thoughts?
of course i know its pugh....come on! i have my daughter every-other weekend and it turns out its EVERY weekend we have a race. since shes only 7 i cant take her with me so no races for me on those weekends
. i'll be at the hillclimb this weekend though, are you racing it?from what i've read most national level BSP guys are on 285/30 on a 9.5" rim, but at our local level i dont think its as critical.
Aug 29, 2011, 08:51 AM
#44
i would love to see what your car feels like! lets set up a time this week and get it done!
i think fitting a 285/30 would be pretty easy. but i dont know that they are made all that much anymore and are hard to find. the 295/30 is pretty common though!
its funny, a 295 is actually narrower than a 285 per tire racks website.
i think fitting a 285/30 would be pretty easy. but i dont know that they are made all that much anymore and are hard to find. the 295/30 is pretty common though!
its funny, a 295 is actually narrower than a 285 per tire racks website.
